Impact of platform staffing arrangements on performance of the 'Castlefield Corridor'

rg177 · 30 Sep 2019

sheff1 said:
Indeed, but that would require

As an aside, I passed through Terminal 3 at the Aiport a couple of weeks ago and the security queue shouters who used to be a feature (obviously a Manchester thing !) were noticeable by their absence ... and, shock horror, security worked just as it did when the shouters were in place with no hold ups due to the absence of shouting.

It's been a long time since I've encountered a shouter in the Airport- in fact the last time I did, I ended up writing in and complaining because I didn't appreciate being screamed at in my face to do things I'd already done- or being yelled because I wasn't allowed two lighters in my liquids bag- when I wasn't even carrying one!

Meanwhile I used Terminal 3 on Thursday morning and the staff were decidedly more friendly and like you say, efficient, as people weren't getting screamed at constantly!

Airport security have a very important job and they don't have to be outwardly jovial- but it's not a free pass to treat people like dirt.

On topic, I despise using Piccadilly 13/14 as the staff have no people skills whatsoever and give the whole place a very unpleasant atmosphere. If I need a service travelling that way, I board/change at Oxford Road where possible.

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sprunt · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They are used for Advance quotas and serve no other purpose - they do not entitle boarding of or a seat in any given train.

If they're issued with Advances, surely they entitle boarding (but not a seat) of the train the Advance is for?

Ken H · 30 Sep 2019

from what i have read above, these platforms need a large concourse above to hold passengers, who would be encouraged to stay up there until their train is due. Maybe have auto barriers that wont let Sheffield passengers onto the platform till 10 minutes before the EMT train is due to call. The PIS up there would tell passengers to move to the platforms at the right time, same as we are told to go to the gate at airports.

Baxenden Bank · 30 Sep 2019

Ken H said:
from what i have read above, these platforms need a large concourse above to hold passengers, who would be encouraged to stay up there until their train is due. Maybe have auto barriers that wont let Sheffield passengers onto the platform till 10 minutes before the EMT train is due to call. The PIS up there would tell passengers to move to the platforms at the right time, same as we are told to go to the gate at airports.

An upstairs concourse exists and is in operation, although it is not especially large. I can imagine it would very quickly fill in the evening peak - and people leaving 13/14 would be unable to pass through to exit/reach other platforms. More seats have recently been provided - replacing a barriered seating/table area for the exclusive use of coffee shop customers. The WH Smith unit has closed - perhaps to be removed to make more space. For many years there have been displays with 'wait upstairs' / 'proceed to platform' messages. These have now been added to but for the life of me I can't think what the changes were - perhaps just bigger/clearer display screens? You still get shouted at downstairs (or did when I travelled) even having waited until being told to 'proceed to platform' by the displays. The problem with holding people upstairs would be the lack of a down escalator to either platform, but particularly 14, and the need for mobility impaired/luggage burdened travellers to use the lift and still make their train.

edwin_m · 30 Sep 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
An upstairs concourse exists and is in operation, although it is not especially large. I can imagine it would very quickly fill in the evening peak - and people leaving 13/14 would be unable to pass through to exit/reach other platforms. More seats have recently been provided - replacing a barriered seating/table area for the exclusive use of coffee shop customers. The WH Smith unit has closed - perhaps to be removed to make more space. For many years there have been displays with 'wait upstairs' / 'proceed to platform' messages. These have now been added to but for the life of me I can't think what the changes were - perhaps just bigger/clearer display screens? You still get shouted at downstairs (or did when I travelled) even having waited until being told to 'proceed to platform' by the displays. The problem with holding people upstairs would be the lack of a down escalator to either platform, but particularly 14, and the need for mobility impaired/luggage burdened travellers to use the lift and still make their train.

The previous displays were standard orange LED but in a horizontal format, showing first train at the top and cycling through the next few below, with "Wait in Lounge" or "Go to platform xx" next to the train. They have now been augmented by flat screen monitors showing the "position" and expected time of the next few trains in each direction, moving across from a "Wait in Lounge" screen through "Get Ready" to "Go to Platform" which is also repeated on a larger screen (I couldn't swear to the exact wording). This seems fairly effective although the extra seats sometimes make it difficult to get through the lounge having alighted from a train. I think they ought to have similar screens on the platform itself, positioned in a near-continuous line just above and parallel to the red line so people could only see the departure information if they stood behind it. There would be another set above the yellow line only showing the current or next train - with details of which coach is going to stop where for trains with reservations.

Bertie the bus · 30 Sep 2019

rg177 said:
On topic, I despise using Piccadilly 13/14 as the staff have no people skills whatsoever and give the whole place a very unpleasant atmosphere. If I need a service travelling that way, I board/change at Oxford Road where possible.

To be fair to them things have settled down a lot over the last 6 months or so and the ones I've encountered recently have been OK and quite polite. I don't blame the platform staff at all. They are just doing what they have been told to do for probably not very much money. It is the people who decided shouting at paying customers is an acceptable way to operate a service I blame, and despite what many who work on the railway think they are part of the service sector. Imagine walking into M&S or booking into a hotel and the staff aggressively shouting at you!

It isn't just Piccadilly either. Virgin West Coast platform staff shout even more than the Piccadilly lot do. At Crewe they have even been issued with loud hailers so they can shout even louder at people stood even further away.

Tomnick · 30 Sep 2019

My main observation, from the front of the train so not the best view of what's going on in the midst of it all, is that the shouty people do a pretty good job of keeping the crowd back behind the red line until the train is at a stand, after which the crowd gathers around a very small number of doors towards the rear of the train to wait for passengers to alight (noticeably more doing so, it seems, from those same doors towards the rear) before then boarding slowly. I don't know how much effort they make to spread the crowd out along the length of the platform where possible, but I'm certain that it'd make a difference. The adjusted stopping position, further away from the stairs, perhaps makes that effect worse.

Starmill said:
The recent amendments to working to try to ensure that both circuits are not occupied simultaneously on these platforms where trains are short enough (which is almost all of them) seems to have helped. I would question why it was ever as it was in the first place, though.

The downside is that trains are now routinely being stopped in the 'wrong' part of the platform, at the mid-platform signal. No great drama, but it can't be without risk as the signal clears and the train - perhaps unexpectedly - moves forward to the correct stopping position. It's made a decent impact on the reoccupation time at the correct end of the platform though!

sheff1 said:
The shouters do not give the impression they would understand what the system was for even if it was explained to them in simple language. In my view, the shouters add nothing positive to the station and should be removed asap.

As an aside, I passed through Terminal 3 at the Aiport a couple of weeks ago and the security queue shouters who used to be a feature (obviously a Manchester thing !) were noticeable by their absence ... and, shock horror, security worked just as it did when the shouters were in place with no hold ups due to the absence of shouting.

Whenever I've worked trains through there when there's been no shouters present, it's been a bit of a nightmare running into the platform, with the waiting crowd right up to the yellow line and others squeezing through between there and the platform edge. On that basis alone, I'm glad that the dispatch staff have some support.

plugwash · 30 Sep 2019

Ken H said:
from what i have read above, these platforms need a large concourse above to hold passengers, who would be encouraged to stay up there until their train is due. Maybe have auto barriers that wont let Sheffield passengers onto the platform till 10 minutes before the EMT train is due to call. The PIS up there would tell passengers to move to the platforms at the right time, same as we are told to go to the gate at airports.

We kind of do have that. The signposted route to 13/14 from the main concourse goes up some sloped travelators, then through a room known as the "link bridge lounge" (at least that is what the announcements in the lift that links said lounge to platform 12 and fairfield street call it) with seating and information displays that tell people when to go to the platform. It also has a coffee shop and toilets (and used to have a WHSmiths but that closed down recently). The information displays were recently upgraded adding large TV based displays in addition to the traditional LED matrix displays. They also seem to have changed the timing on the displays recently, IIRC "go to platform" used to be displayed 10 minutes before expected departure but now the time allowance is less than than that.

I tend to travel home after the peak though, so i'm not sure whether the lounge runs out of capacity in the evening peak or not.

In extreme cases of disruption in the past I have seen staff at the top of the stairs asking people their destinations and making them wait upstairs if appropriate. I wonder if doing this on a more regular basis would be more effective than the current "shouters" down on the platforms.

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

sheff1 said:
As an aside, I passed through Terminal 3 at the Aiport a couple of weeks ago and the security queue shouters who used to be a feature (obviously a Manchester thing !) were noticeable by their absence ... and, shock horror, security worked just as it did when the shouters were in place with no hold ups due to the absence of shouting.

Has Manchester switched to the now common system of having about 6 numbered preparation areas on each belt? This removes the need for "shouters" because if one person is slow and faffing it doesn't hold up the other 5 slots so it doesn't cause an issue.

What that highlights is that if you design an effective system you don't need people to police it - people just follow it naturally.

Mogster · 30 Sep 2019

I use Oxford Road daily around 16:15. I’m waiting for the Wigan service but it’ll be randomly assorted between a Yorkshire TPE service, a Liverpool express and stopper and a 50 car freight train from Trafford Park FLT. The timetable is of no use, it’s first come first served onto Castlefield Viaduct, everything is late...

The staff are no help. I don’t blame them for this as they are given no information. The TPE service especially takes an age to board as people unfamiliar with the journey are trying to drag suitcases on. The staff can’t tell people to stand in a particular place as they and the passengers have no idea what will turn up from Northern’s random unit generator. The regulars tend to crowd in the middle ready to fight their way on if a short form turns up, which isn’t unusual... When they appear the 195s to Liverpool can board rapidly with the wide doors but only turn up as 2 or 3 car formations which is inadequate and the crowding slows everything down...

Services have nearly 20 minutes timetabled to go from Salford Crescent to Piccadilly. It’s a mile for God’s sake...

The worst thing is that no one seems to give a toss about this, not Burnham, he’s only interesting in his beloved trams, not the DfT as nothing seems to be getting done with the chaos in Westminster. Meanwhile the centre of Manchester is gridlocked with road traffic...

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

Fundamentally only two things will work in my book.

Build 15/16 but crucially do not add any more services to the timetable - it would have to be a pure resilience build.

Or

Change it to be something like Thameslink, with only one type of train going through it with wide doors at thirds and high capacity. The advantage of classes 195 and 331 is that the 3-car sets are pretty near identical, so you could limit it to routes operated by either single or pairs of 3-car CAF units only, meaning fixed door positions which could be marked on the platform. This would also need development work at Victoria to allow whatever services were displaced to serve there instead, i.e. the Welsh services, the TPE WCML services and the Liverpool-Nottingham which could run to Victoria then to Stockport via Denton. TPE would also have to cease using the Ordsall Chord to be replaced by Class 195/331 operated Northern services.

Mogster · 30 Sep 2019

Yes ideally Castlefield Viaduct would be Manclink only and TPE TFW and the freight would go somewhere else...

Unfortunately everyone wants to go to Castlefield, Piccadilly and the Airport it seems. 15&16 would be a start but I can’t help feeling that the problem is so huge something radical is needed. The rapid level of development in S Manchester is so huge that from a transport POV it’s scary... It’s like Manchatten...

sheff1 · 30 Sep 2019

Tomnick said:
The adjusted stopping position, further away from the stairs, perhaps makes that effect worse.

Yes, it certainly made it worse. I was caught out when it started but obviously now reposition myself accordingly.

Tomnick said:
Whenever I've worked trains through there when there's been no shouters present, it's been a bit of a nightmare running into the platform, with the waiting crowd right up to the yellow line and others squeezing through between there and the platform edge. On that basis alone, I'm glad that the dispatch staff have some support.

Fair enough. Since their introduction, I haven't been on P14 at a time when the shouters have not been present.

Bertie the bus · 30 Sep 2019

Mogster said:
Yes ideally Castlefield Viaduct would be Manclink only and TPE TFW and the freight would go somewhere else...

Talk about not being able to see the bigger picture... There is a large container terminal at Trafford Park. Where exactly do you expect the freight to go to?

sheff1 · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Has Manchester switched to the now common system of having about 6 numbered preparation areas on each belt? This removes the need for "shouters" because if one person is slow and faffing it doesn't hold up the other 5 slots so it doesn't cause an issue.

Yes they have and, if someone at the head of the queue fails to notice an area becoming vacant the staff member there can gently point them towards it - no shouting involved (not that there was any need for shouters in the first place).

Carlisle · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think you miss my point - getting the correct formation on the PIS once someone has seen that it's not as planned is really not a difficult technical/procedural problem.

Today’s technology really ought to be sufficiently advanced to understand which way round a unit is & transfer the relevant information accordingly via 4g or GSMR ,, rather than relying on manual input somewhere during a journey

Mogster · 1 Oct 2019

Bertie the bus said:
Talk about not being able to see the bigger picture... There is a large container terminal at Trafford Park. Where exactly do you expect the freight to go to?

That’s why I said something radical was needed. That is the bigger picture. The current situation with local services, long distance services and freight using the viaduct clearly isn’t efficient and it’s only going to get worse.

Moving freight through very busy passenger stations is stupid and maybe even dangerous. I can only imagine the reaction of Thameslink passengers if the core stations were closed to passenger traffic for 10 minutes every hour while container trains moved through.

The Planner · 1 Oct 2019

Mogster said:
That’s why I said something radical was needed. That is the bigger picture. The current situation with local services, long distance services and freight using the viaduct clearly isn’t efficient and it’s only going to get worse.

Moving freight through very busy passenger stations is stupid and maybe even dangerous. I can only imagine the reaction of Thameslink passengers if the core stations were closed to passenger traffic for 10 minutes every hour while container trains moved through.

Why is it dangerous? they trundle through there at a low speed, there are plenty of stations where they fly through at 75mph several times a day every day without issue.

Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

The Planner said:
Why is it dangerous? they trundle through there at a low speed, there are plenty of stations where they fly through at 75mph several times a day every day without issue.

And how are they more dangerous than a Pendolino going through MKC P6 at 125mph with people stood about a metre away from it? This happens 6 times an hour.

yorksrob · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Fundamentally only two things will work in my book.

Build 15/16 but crucially do not add any more services to the timetable - it would have to be a pure resilience build.

Or

Change it to be something like Thameslink, with only one type of train going through it with wide doors at thirds and high capacity. The advantage of classes 195 and 331 is that the 3-car sets are pretty near identical, so you could limit it to routes operated by either single or pairs of 3-car CAF units only, meaning fixed door positions which could be marked on the platform. This would also need development work at Victoria to allow whatever services were displaced to serve there instead, i.e. the Welsh services, the TPE WCML services and the Liverpool-Nottingham which could run to Victoria then to Stockport via Denton. TPE would also have to cease using the Ordsall Chord to be replaced by Class 195/331 operated Northern services.

Indeed. If they had those longer trains, they wouldn't need to add any more. Infact the existing ones would probably load more easily due to there not being a scrum for the seats.

Bantamzen · 1 Oct 2019

I seem to remember some years ago that the staff on the concourse would often manage passengers by only allowing those catching trains that were displayed as "Go to platform" on the screens in the concourse. Of course this wasn't prefect, but it did seem to prevent the very worst of the platform overcrowding at least away from the peak times. And with the updated screens there does seem to be some element of control, again away from peak times although as has been pointed out the concourse is way too small to be able to deal with the busiest of times. Although it would be an expensive job, it can't be beyond the realms of possibility to expand this area to better cope. Also, in the long run perhaps at least one more set of stairs or an elevator down to platform level might be useful. But ultimately in terms of capacity, Piccadilly needs P15/16 which ironically would resolve the problems my suggestions tackle in the first place. So this ought to be a no-brainer. In fact it is a screamingly obvious no-brainer, and quite why the Minister didn't sort out the finance years ago is beyond me.

In terms of the shouters, whilst I don't think it's their fault that the platforms aren't suitable for their purpose, they don't really help sometimes, seemingly winding people up and as other have said getting people stressed out. Hopefully once stock improvements kick in and capacity rises, they can ease up on herding folk into one small area and allow passengers to spread out along the full length of the trains. This would be improved further by ensuring that stock length & orientation are communicated to them, as @Bletchleyite has said a few times it is an improvement that needs little in the way of technological improvements, just guards / drivers confirming details, and staff have mobile devices relaying this info. So when a TPE rolls in they can announce that First Class is at the front / back etc etc before the services arrives into the platform. Come to think about it, another no-brainer...

Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

yorksrob said:
Indeed. If they had those longer trains, they wouldn't need to add any more. Infact the existing ones would probably load more easily due to there not being a scrum for the seats.

For all the bad things people say about Class 700s, the way they clear the platform at busy Thameslink stations in seconds is impressive. That kind of unit (to which the CAF sets are close, though not quite the same) is the only way P13/14 can be made to work as it is.

Mogster · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And how are they more dangerous than a Pendolino going through MKC P6 at 125mph with people stood about a metre away from it? This happens 6 times an hour.

I’m not over stressing the danger part.

I do however feel the platforms at most WCML stations are quite different to those at Oxford Road, giving more space. The centre island platforms at Oxford Road are often rammed full at peak times and with the simultaneous E and W freight pathway the containers produce a 2 way moving wall of steel. The noise is horrendous also. I’m a regular traveller and still find the situation quite intimidating.

yorksrob · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
For all the bad things people say about Class 700s, the way they clear the platform at busy Thameslink stations in seconds is impressive. That kind of unit (to which the CAF sets are close, though not quite the same) is the only way P13/14 can be made to work as it is.

I think that if you had longer trains and 15/16, you wouldn't need to subject passengers to an unsuitable travelling environment. Some will be travelling as far as Glasgow or Nottingham afterall.

Mogster · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
For all the bad things people say about Class 700s, the way they clear the platform at busy Thameslink stations in seconds is impressive. That kind of unit (to which the CAF sets are close, though not quite the same) is the only way P13/14 can be made to work as it is.

The 195s can load impressively quickly, you can see that straight away. Double sets of 4 or 6 cars are needed though. 2s and 3s are available currently.

Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

yorksrob said:
I think that if you had longer trains and 15/16, you wouldn't need to subject passengers to an unsuitable travelling environment. Some will be travelling as far as Glasgow or Nottingham afterall.

15/16 is an alternative solution to the problem, to be fair - existing stock would work if the platform capacity was doubled with no additional services.

yorksrob · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
15/16 is an alternative solution to the problem, to be fair - existing stock would work if the platform capacity was doubled with no additional services.

And train capacity. That's the crucial thing.

Senex · 1 Oct 2019

yorksrob said:
I think that if you had longer trains and 15/16, you wouldn't need to subject passengers to an unsuitable travelling environment. Some will be travelling as far as Glasgow or Nottingham afterall.

The long-distance passengers seem to get forgotten. Piccadilly (MSJ&A) with its bleak platform and pathetic excuse for a "lounge" with inadequate connections to and from that platform must be one of the most disgraceful inter-city station environments in any of the major cities of Europe. A simple platform with no facilities may well be enough for the equivalent of an S-Bahn service, but that is not what this is or was claimed to be. In effect, Manchester has seen £85 million spent on building the Ordsall Chord to create a chaotic situation that many people did predict in advance and that is now confirmed by the recent NR study ("Castlefield Corridor Congested Infrastructure Report - Capacity Analysis – System Operator - September 2019"). The only solution that would seem to provide fully for the capacity needed to operate a mixed long-distance and S-Bahn-type service reliably with the types of rolling stock that appear to be available for the next two decades and to be able to offer long-distance / inter-city appropriate modern facilities is the construction of platforms 15 and 16, along with the acompanying modernisation of Oxford Road. But the Tory DfT seems to have set its face against this. Yet without significant further investment—or a major change in the type of train-service offered through Manchester—the Castlefield Corridor will continue into the future to offer and often to realise the potential for (to put it crudely) buggering up the train service over large areas of the north of England. The whole thing has been an object-lesson in how useless piecemeal investment can turn out to be.

Mordac · 1 Oct 2019

sheff1 said:
Yes they have and, if someone at the head of the queue fails to notice an area becoming vacant the staff member there can gently point them towards it - no shouting involved (not that there was any need for shouters in the first place).

That would mean that the MAN Stasi don't get to shout at and abuse people, so they'd consider it a negative no doubt.

Ih8earlies · 1 Oct 2019

Still mulling this idea over so there are loads of obstacles to it, but - In the absence of platforms 15/16... extend 13 and 14 each to a length suitable to accommodate two 5/6 car trains at the same time.

Then: 13b train arrives. Sets down passengers. Departs and stops at 13a to board waiting passengers.

Same at 14: train arrives into 14b. Sets down passengers. Departs and moves to 14a to board passengers waiting.

This would require partitions to keep passengers from moving between 13a and 13b etc. But it would remove the conflict between passengers trying to board whilst other passengers are still trying to get off.

It would also require more despatchers present at all times to keep things moving. Maybe TUPE all despatchers over to Network Rail and have a single company responsible for the despatch of trains? At the moment it isn't unusual to see staff from Northern and TPE (sometimes Virgin too if they are diverting through 13/14) waiting to despatch a train - but only dispatching their own companies services.

Impact of platform staffing arrangements on performance of the 'Castlefield Corridor'

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