J-2739
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A thought terminating cliché?
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Pacer Trains: Politicians call for passenger compensation
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A thought terminating cliché?
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Bantamzen
Established Member
I'm not sure that analogy works very well. If your beer is off because it is low quality, you choose another brand. If your train is cancelled because politicians want compensation for stock that has been used for decades, you may not have any other choice but to wait on a cold platform. And given the low frequencies on many Northern routes, you could be waiting 30, 60 or even more minutes.
Try telling a platform full of cold, fed up commuters that it is better to wait for a 2020 compliant unit than get a Pacer now. You'd get lynched for sure.
Any route operated by pacers.
bramling
Veteran Member
Absolutely farcical.
Love them or hate them Pacers are within the 40-year nominal lifespan of a train. Indeed there's older trains still plying their trade elsewhere in the country. Who do these people think they are?!
In any case, it's daft putting too much pressure on getting Pacers off the rails. Most people would surely prefer a long train with Pacers in the formation over a short overcrowded new train. In fact, most users probably don't care that much at all, but obviously that doesn't suit the northern victimhood bus.
Very true. In the late 1980s, when we still had to endure old rattling dingy life expired Class 104s with diesel fumes entering the interiors, there were no calls from politicians to give passengers compensation because of their continued use. I went on 142055 yesterday and despite a slight wheel flat and those horrible Merseyrail bus seats, the unit was fine.
I wonder what the reaction of the politicians would be if all remaining Pacers were put into warm store after 31st December and Northern announced that they had not got enough trains to provide a service?
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Excellent. My local route is operated largely by Pacers, yet there are times these days where I might not catch one at all during the week because my particular services happen to be 156/158. But I assume i'm eligible for cheaper fares because they are on my route?
What about a route that doesn't see a Pacer at all but gets one at 8pm one Saturday night because it had to replace a failed unit. Does that become a Pacer route?
Completely unworkable.
Absolutely. It’s a pacer route.
Not by default, but maybe you could apply for compensation in this case.
Why? What’s difficult about this? It’s very simple.
Phil.
They don't know what they're missing!
Then it will become very expensive, very quick.
If it's very simple, how does that final situation work? Do I have to prove that I am on the train somehow, or can people abuse it? Do all Pacers have a pile of special forms in the back cab that the guard hands around? Do we send Northern a Tweet with the hashtag #iwasonapacerbutwasntsupposedtobe?
And @Ianno87 makes a great point above, what about when your Pacer experience is only a small part of an overall journey?
It's all a load of unworkable bollocks.
The fares on Pacer affected routes are cut by a modest amount for as long as pacers remain on them. That's all that's required. The railway changes fares by varying amounts every year, and in many cases more frequently than that.
And it may well be expensive. That's the whole point. Promises were made. They've not been kept. Passengers can receive the value they were promised in their pockets rather than as the quality of the rolling stock.
YorkshireBear
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Indeed but that doesn't mean them being around another month longer than planned is the be all and end all of everything is the point I was trying to make
Northern have already administered 'additional compensation' to passengers who were both regular travellers without season tickets and season ticket holders. That was back in 2018, and there's no reason a similar exercise can't be applied to this.
The scheme would cover the period from 1 Jan 2020 to the final day where Northern operate a pacer train on a scheduled passenger service. Compensation claims should be submitted throughout and payments would be made at the end of that period.
It's a good idea, it's easily workable and there's a precedent for doing it. The high cost wasn't an issue last time, and this would be a much smaller scheme. Northern have failed to meet their franchise obligations so this is a suitable way to ameliorate the breach of contract. The DfT should implement the policy.
The scheme would cover the period from 1 Jan 2020 to the final day where Northern operate a pacer train on a scheduled passenger service. Compensation claims should be submitted throughout and payments would be made at the end of that period.
It's a good idea, it's easily workable and there's a precedent for doing it. The high cost wasn't an issue last time, and this would be a much smaller scheme. Northern have failed to meet their franchise obligations so this is a suitable way to ameliorate the breach of contract. The DfT should implement the policy.
I would support this too - although it is not really a compensation scheme. I don't think that it will be implemented though, and I don't think there's time to organise it now.
Another option that might be more equitable would be to change the regulations so that Northern can't apply the increase in regulated fares until, say, 1 April rather than 2 January. But it's probably too late for that one, too.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I'm surprised Northern didn't have some sort of liquidated damages in place, so CAF were liable for any delays. Only problem with this approach is it just increases the original price as the bidder covers their liability. Maybe CAF got the contract because there was no such clause?
Then again it's usually only the lawyers who come out of such situations with anything to show for it.
In my experience, if the bosses listened to the engineers, they would get a more realistic delivery date. Well either that or no delivery at all!
Then again it's usually only the lawyers who come out of such situations with anything to show for it.
In my experience, if the bosses listened to the engineers, they would get a more realistic delivery date. Well either that or no delivery at all!
Well, Local Authorities do contribute to PTE costs. It's in the pie chart my Council sends to me every year to say where my Council tax is going.
Indeed. A lot of our problems can be traced back to the "no growth" franchise.
Quite. My fear is that the pacers go, then we're left with overcrowded two carriage trains for the next thirty years whilst the parties do nothing.
Exactly the current Northern Franchise is largely about catching up with where it should have been rather than moving forwards to where expectations might lie.
3141
Established Member
It's purely a piece of electioneering. They are three Labour mayors seeing an opportunity that they hope will attract voters to Labour in the election that is likely to happen in the next few weeks or months.
Brissle Girl
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I’d argue with the comments that the Pacers were built with a 40 year lifespan in mind. Back in the 70s and 80s the rule of thumb was that electric stock should be good for 40 years, but that diesel units had a lifespan of around 25 to 30 years. And if I recall, as Pacers were very much seen as a cheaply built unit, I don’t think there was much expectation of them lasting much beyond 20 years.
From Castleford, my local station, there are two trains an hour to Leeds the major destination. Of late one, from Knottingley has been mainly a 150. The other from Sheffield via Barnsley is mainly a Pacer. Does this qualify as a Pacer service or does it matter which one I catch. Will it be worth my while to wait for a Train from Sheffield or will it be declared a Pacer route?
Then of course as the off peak fare is not much and is even less for us oldies who live in West Yorks it will cost more to compensate me than the fare was in the first place.
Another bright idea from Politicians who haven't got a clue. Engage brain before opening mouth is good advice all politicians should listen too.
Then of course as the off peak fare is not much and is even less for us oldies who live in West Yorks it will cost more to compensate me than the fare was in the first place.
Another bright idea from Politicians who haven't got a clue. Engage brain before opening mouth is good advice all politicians should listen too.
It's electioneering, made worse in this day and age of soundbite politics. No substance from any side.
BBC Look North covered the story yesterday in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, the general public didn’t seem that fussed apart from they couldn’t charge their phone!
I did like how TV legend Peter Levy asked one passenger if they were annoyed because they couldn’t get a cup of tea on board a Northern pacer
I did like how TV legend Peter Levy asked one passenger if they were annoyed because they couldn’t get a cup of tea on board a Northern pacer
No, it isn't. Whilst I am sure that all of the policiticans involved are hoping to be rewarded at the ballot box for going in to bat for their constiuents, they are also trying to find a way to enforce franchise commitments or, if that cannot be done, give their constituents some recompense. Complaints about Northern - and its old / broken / late / non-existent trains - fill up the inboxes of some MPs, and you can check that yourself by - for instance - finding Kate Green MP on Facebook, and checking what her posts have related to over the last few months.
Northern's astonishingly poor performance needs to be resolved, and the more pressure that can be brought to bear on the stakeholders, the more likely that is to happen.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
these^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, it is worth noting that many posters here simply do not understand politics or the impact of politics on the railways
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
The ones on the Crewe-Derby service have less acceleration than my old FS1E moped in 1978.
CaptainHaddock
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BBC Look North covered the story yesterday in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, the general public didn’t seem that fussed apart from they couldn’t charge their phone!
I did like how TV legend Peter Levy asked one passenger if they were annoyed because they couldn’t get a cup of tea on board a Northern pacer
The BBC Look North feature on this story on last night's 10pm news featured external shots of a 144 and internal shots of a 142! I wonder if they think a pacer is "any train that looks a bit like a bus"???
Well they are both Pacers...
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