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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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Jozhua

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The Control Period 5 plans were more transparent about this and the MML scheme has 2 defined Key Output stages

KO1 was everything required to run 2 tph 12 car electric services to Corby by December 2020

KO1a was everything required to run all other EMR services at up to 125mph from Kettering/Mkt Harborough to London by 2022/3

Hence the new substation at Braybrooke isn't started yet. It's not needed for KO1, but it's due KO1a.

Unless you've heard that KO1a has changed scope or timescale, I don't think there's much value in speculating too much about non-electric running South of Bedford

Yeah, but I was just pointing out what would be sensible given the existing electrical supply parameters...
 
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InTheEastMids

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9 should be about right post 360s to Corby to enable no 180 use.

According to the 125 Group website, there are currently 10 weekday HST diagrams, so from now until December 2020 it doesn't seem like enough to me, or have I missed something?
 

hwl

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According to the 125 Group website, there are currently 10 weekday HST diagrams, so from now until December 2020 it doesn't seem like enough to me, or have I missed something?
We don't know how quickly they want to do the change. A quick recast
Don't 2 of those 2 diagrams involve short 2+6 sets ex GC? Which suggest they might be kept.
We don't know how many power cars are moving over? A sensible number of spare PCs and individual coaches would help.

There is also lots of slack in some diagrams so May '20 TT changes might reduce unit requirements and see some of the northern end of Thameslink stopping issues starting to be resolved?
 

Laketop

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There has been a recent post by Railmagizine regarding the cascading of their HSTs to the EMR fleet.

The article mentions nine-coach HSTs, would this then be the case that EMR will be getting even longer trains than its currently used 8-car ones?

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/cascaded-lner-hsts-to-plug-the-gap-in-east-midlands-fleet

The three-year saga over how to replace non-compliant High Speed Trains on East Midlands Railway has been resolved… by using cascaded HSTs.

When then-Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling cancelled the Midland Main Line electrification north of Wellingborough in July 2017, he said that new bi-mode trains would be delivered from 2022.

However, because the MML’s existing HST fleet will not meet accessibility regulations that come into force from January 1 2020, they will have to be withdrawn by the end of this year - leaving a major shortfall in the inter-city fleet.

When Abellio won the East Midlands franchise in April, the Department for Transport said that cascaded HSTs from LNER would be an option.

This has now been confirmed, with six nine-coach HSTs from Angel Trains and three eight-coach sets from Porterbrook set to temporarily join the EMR fleet.

EMR Fleet Director Chris Wright said: “By December 2022, we will have replaced our entire train fleet to provide modern and accessible trains better suited to the routes they operate. That work is already well under way, but it does not happen overnight."
 

43096

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According to the 125 Group website, there are currently 10 weekday HST diagrams, so from now until December 2020 it doesn't seem like enough to me, or have I missed something?
You have missed something..... We are talking about the eight 2+8 diagrams being replaced - the NLxx series in the diagrams you mention. The two DYxx diagrams are being replaced by 180s.
 

cactustwirly

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According to the 125 Group website, there are currently 10 weekday HST diagrams, so from now until December 2020 it doesn't seem like enough to me, or have I missed something?

The two DY set diagrams aren't that intensive, and could be replaced by 222s cascaded from Corby electrification.
 

InTheEastMids

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Sounds like constant change for a bit, so now I think what's going to happen is:

Now-> May: LNER HST replace current 2+8 fleet
May : 180s replace 2+6 HST fleet
Dec 20: 360s to Corby, displace some 222, timetable recast, so guess a few ex LNER sets will be withdrawn
2022-3: 80x introduction, displacing final HST, 180s and 222

Edit: there are 33 80x (165 vehicles) on order, and they will have 27 Cl222 and 4 Cl180 (163 vehicles in total). So after December 2020, will EMR will completely dump the HSTs, or maybe just keep a small handful around?
 
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DDB

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I think that EMR are very keen on uniform fleets even when that involves considerable effort with the 170s coming from several sources. So I think it is very unlikely that they will keep a couple of HSTs. Especially as they would probably need extra work to make them fully compliant. In the unlikely event they decide they need extra mainline stock I would expect them to renegotiate the bimode order to add an extra couple of sets.
 

samuelmorris

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Sounds like constant change for a bit, so now I think what's going to happen is:

Now-> May: LNER HST replace current 2+8 fleet
May : 180s replace 2+6 HST fleet
Dec 20: 360s to Corby, displace some 222, timetable recast, so guess a few ex LNER sets will be withdrawn
2022-3: 80x introduction, displacing final HST, 180s and 222

Edit: there are 33 80x (165 vehicles) on order, and they will have 27 Cl222 and 4 Cl180 (163 vehicles in total). So after December 2020, will EMR will completely dump the HSTs, or maybe just keep a small handful around?
So is it confirmed that despite the LNER HSTs, the 180s are still required?
 

InTheEastMids

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So is it confirmed that despite the LNER HSTs, the 180s are still required?

I may be 2+2=5 but I think so

Reason is that EMR have 10 daily HST diagrams (8 full length and 2 2+6) and are apparently only getting 9 sets from LNER. So what I expect they'll do is perhaps 7-8 ex LNER and 2-3 180s

The Dec2020 timetable recast should leave some HSTs redundant.

Whatever HSTs are needed after Dec2020 will then presumably be retired once new 80x arrive.
 

tbtc

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So is it confirmed that despite the LNER HSTs, the 180s are still required?

Looks like the 180s may be replacing a different (Derby) batch of HSTs to the ones that the LNER ones will replace (the Leeds ones)?

Plus, as I've said before on here, I wouldn't be surprised if EMR want the 180s because they look like a positive PR story ("we are introducing brand new trains, but in the meantime whilst they are getting built, we are replacing some of the 1970s ones were inherited with these fancy looking modern ones") - it's a simple positive tale to tell.

Once 360s take over Corby and the timetable towards Leicester goes back to what it was (before Thameslink slowed EMT down and reduced the paths, hence no London - Sheffield services between 16:59 and 18:02), I'm not sure that the ex-GC sets or the 180s will be required but it made sense to get the ex-GC sets for a short period and I think it makes sense to have the 180s in the short term too. Although you know that the minute one is delayed, there'll be lots of froth on here...
 

43074

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Sounds like constant change for a bit, so now I think what's going to happen is:

Now-> May: LNER HST replace current 2+8 fleet
May : 180s replace 2+6 HST fleet
Dec 20: 360s to Corby, displace some 222, timetable recast, so guess a few ex LNER sets will be withdrawn
2022-3: 80x introduction, displacing final HST, 180s and 222

Edit: there are 33 80x (165 vehicles) on order, and they will have 27 Cl222 and 4 Cl180 (163 vehicles in total). So after December 2020, will EMR will completely dump the HSTs, or maybe just keep a small handful around?

The plan is that HSTs will be retired by December 2020. There are 4 222 sets freed up by the arrival of the 360s, the rest come from changing the timetable - so the slow Nottingham service will be sped up, turnarounds for the slower Sheffield service at the Sheffield end will reduce from 60+ minutes, and there will be no need to keep the Nottingham fast services isolated just because they are HSTs. This gives more flexibility than at present allowing diagrams to be optimised and the HSTs replaced.

Once 360s take over Corby and the timetable towards Leicester goes back to what it was (before Thameslink slowed EMT down and reduced the paths, hence no London - Sheffield services between 16:59 and 18:02), I'm not sure that the ex-GC sets or the 180s will be required but it made sense to get the ex-GC sets for a short period and I think it makes sense to have the 180s in the short term too. Although you know that the minute one is delayed, there'll be lots of froth on here...

The 180s will be required until December 2022. I wouldn't put too much hope on the London to Sheffield timings improving much as the Thameslink timetable is essentially staying unchanged, although there will be a more evenly spaced 2tph throughout the evening peak as that was what the DfT specified! The TL timetable was designed by GTR with provision for the 6th path, so EMR were second on the timetable graph, unlike on the West Coast where VT were first on the graph and LM had to fit in where possible, hence the sub optimal timings in the peaks on the MML compared to the other main lines.
 

43055

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A 2+9 would be too long for some of the platforms, probably including St Pancras.
2+9 is to long for St Pancras (if the platforms are 240 meters long?). Also I wouldn't think EMR would want a mixed fleet of 6, 8 and 9 car HST's.
 

43074

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Today's Railways UK (which is usually pretty reliable on such matters) is reporting the new bi-modes have been allocated the TOPs number range 804001 - 804033
 

swt_passenger

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I think St Pancras has 260m MML platforms. Other platforms e.g. Long Eaton have shorter platforms.
Yes, the online (public) sectional appendix does show 260m (285 yds) for all four MML platforms. I presume that’s the available operational length, unless anyone knows different?
 

Mikey C

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Today's Railways UK (which is usually pretty reliable on such matters) is reporting the new bi-modes have been allocated the TOPs number range 804001 - 804033

The numbers for the 800 derivatives have been quite logical when compared to the Aventras and Desiro Cities!
 

Jozhua

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Today's Railways UK (which is usually pretty reliable on such matters) is reporting the new bi-modes have been allocated the TOPs number range 804001 - 804033

Is it time to start a 804 construction/introduction updates thread?
 

InTheEastMids

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I think St Pancras has 260m MML platforms. Other platforms e.g. Long Eaton have shorter platforms.

What's the performance hit for 2+9 Vs 2+8?
The 2+6 formations are noticeably faster than the 2+8 to accelerate and understood that the comparative slowness of 2+8 HST vs 222 created a pathing pain? So I'm wondering if the 2+9s might act as a rolling roadblock by being even slower?

But a bit more capacity on the 1901 & 1904 from STP would be welcome
 
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