Indeed. Just look at what happened to the Vow.
Turned into the Smith Commission and implemented as the Scotland Act 2016.
Indeed. Just look at what happened to the Vow.
It's not about logic.Surely it isn’t? It seems unfathomable to erect a physical barrier against a country of 300 years union in favour of a union less than 60 years old on a continent several hundred miles from Scotland?
Well, a watered-down version...Turned into the Smith Commission and implemented as the Scotland Act 2016.
The Brexiters were also motivated by ideology, as there is absolutely no practical benefit to the UK leaving the EU. So why should Scotland be similarly motivated to go for independence?
Fair enough. The issue is that, rightly or wrongly, the impression that the UK Government gives is that the 5 million just don't matter.
Where distance is concerned, Aberdeen is only 50km closer to London than it is to the Hague. And nobody is expecting there to be a physical barrier along the entire Border - at the worst there would be checkpoints on the trunk roads to check goods vehicles.
After all, we've been promised that there won't be any physical barrier between NI and ROI, haven't we?
It's not about logic.
Much like the vote for the UK to leave the EU it is largely based on principle and emotion. There are a lot of people who are for independence on principle. They don't have a logical reason, they just believe that Scotland should be independent. Just like with the UK leaving the EU they can come up with arguments which initially sound good, but fall apart once facts are applied.
Then they'll fall back on "sovereignty", "control from afar" and "make our own laws" (sound familiar?)
If that was the basis on which a new referendum was held, I'd expect the result to be about the same - around 40-ish% support.
The issue is now one of emotion. There is a sizable percentage of "No" voters who feel that the UK government betrayed Scotland by (a) promising that a "No" vote would secure our European rights for a generation, then holding a referendum on those rights less that two years later; (b) by conducting a referendum campaign for internal party political reasons (and given that there were more Giant Pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs, we can say English internal party politics); (c) conducting that campaign so poorly as to lose; and (d) have compounded that betrayal by appearing to treat Scotland with contempt during the negotiations which have been undertaken so far.
That's why I can't say with any confidence that Scotland wouldn't vote to cut off our nose to spite the UK's face, because it's one that we no longer recognise when we look in the mirror.
Or Scotland could be thinking that the Auld Alliance might now offer more than the union with Little England does?
Most of the damage was done in the 1980s and early 90s. However 2000-2010 saw the reconvening of the Scottish parliament, devolution of powers, etc. Which softened many people's view of the English/Scottish relationship. Hence why the independence bid was unsuccessful.Are you saying that generally, the only reason Scots votes to stay in the UK was out of allegiance to the EU and that their emotional relationship with the UK was effectively over anyway in 2014?
We've also been told that there won't be a border in the Irish sea.Yes but the difference is that there is one but it is in the Irish Sea.
Revisionist history much? We were told multiple times that we would have an EEA-like arrangement, which would mean accepting pretty much the status-quo where the customs union and four freedoms are concerned.The campaign was won on the basis on making our own trade deals and controlling immigration.
I agree, and never claimed that it was.Brexit wasn’t only Conservative internal politics.
Err... Because the campaign was poorly run, perhaps?A lot of remainers didn’t actually vote for whatever reason.
It wouldn't have been the only issue but the question of staying in the EU and whether an independent Scotland could join was an important issue in the 2014 campaign. The possibility of being in the EU would tend to increase support for independence because it shows that small nations don't have to be totally isolated and can prosper within it (Ireland being the most obvious example). So one of the arguments put forward by Union supporters was that Scotland would have difficulty becoming an EU member. Now if the Union continues it is impossible for Scotland to be an EU member.a. I understand your point, but it still raises questions. Are you saying that generally, the only reason Scots votes to stay in the UK was out of allegiance to the EU and that their emotional relationship with the UK was effectively over anyway in 2014?
Whether it was Tory internal politics or not is out of scope for this discussion. The important thing is that it was seen to be Tory internal politics and therefore a creation of a party few Scots support and many loathe. The fact that Scottish issued appear to have been ignored when calling the referendum bolsters that view.b. Brexit wasn’t only Conservative internal politics. Pretty much the only reason Labour didn’t offer Britain a referendum on the Euro was because there was the possibility they could either not win it and their credibility would be damaged or it would be an economic disaster and they would lose their hard won reputation on economic competence. Plus, don’t forget it was New Labour who refused to implement controls on the amount of new Eastern European workers could enter Britain which caused the groundswell for the referendum 10 years later. How they could so badly misread the mood of their own public like that I don’t know, but the point is That was an internal politics issue in the Labour Party and that was something that led to Brexit-it’s not just a Tory thing.
I've posted the link below already. It was 67.2%. The turnout in Scotland would have had to be well over 100% for the Remain vote there to outweigh the Leave majority elsewhere. And I don't see how the turnout in Scotland could have influenced voting elsewhere, considering voters couldn't know the turnout at the time of voting.c. I don’t think this is fair. A lot of remainers didn’t actually vote for whatever reason. I mean, Scottish turnout was only 62% for the EU membership referendum. If it had been in the 80s like the 2014 referendum then I’m sure the UK would have voted remain.
That is a question that the EU previously declined to answer unless specifically asked by the UK Government.Would an independent Scotland be allowed to immediately join the EU?
Not for the same reasons - the UK was committed to future EU spending because of the multi-year EU budgets.If Scotland is granted independence; wouldn't they need to hold a referendum on joining the EU ? or would the SNP unilaterally decide to join ?
Not for the same reasons - the UK was committed to future EU spending because of the multi-year EU budgets.
Depending on the speed of transition the Scots might have to keep paying the UK government for some services that can’t be quickly split.
Can’t easily think of long term projects we could insist they keep paying for, though it would be a giggle to demand they keep paying for the committed Trident replacement programme
Probably some right-wing faction in England will insist that doing either of those things outside its boundaries is a national security risk and demand the base is relocated further south.maybe England would insist of us having a trident base still there in exchange for Scotland to keep building the Royal Navy ships ?
Almost certainly. There was a great hue and cry about the latest RFA ships being built in South Korea and they were basically just freighters painted grey.Probably some right-wing faction in England will insist that doing either of those things outside its boundaries is a national security risk and demand the base is relocated further south.
If anyone wishes to discuss Brexit please do so in another thread.
There is a separate long-running thread on the EU referendum result and aftermath at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-the-result-and-aftermath.132044/page-710
I suppose the posts on Brexit should be in that thread really, but the one that I wanted to reply to just happened to be in this thread.
True. Though some of the posts which were removed (mine included) were about Brexit generally rather than the impact on Scotland.Brexit and Scottish independence can't really be untangled at the moment, since one is being used - rightly or otherwise - by the SNP as a justification for the other.
And only became prosperous after joining the EU.Ireland was poor for decades when they left the UK.
And only became prosperous after joining the EU.
Only became prosperous when bunged large amounts of EU (our) money, and undercut everybody on corporation tax (illegally in the Apple case?)And only became prosperous after joining the EU.
the less other topics over which she has control (health / education / crime etc) get scrutinised
Now just explain this to me:
I come across English pensioners in Scotland (like UK ex-pats in Spain?), who are thinking of moving back to England, to be closer to their grandchildren.
BUT, they say, the NHS is worse in England than it is in Scotland.
- NHS Scotland outperforms the NHS in England.
- Reported crime in Scotland was down 27% between 2009 and 2019
- There's no statistically significant difference between English and Scottish GCSE-equivalent qualifications
Ten Prime Ministers who were made in Scotland
Whatever your political stance, Scottish soil is a notable cross-party breeding ground for some of Britain’s best – and worst – Prime Ministers.
Here we highlight 10 of note.