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WCRC loses judicial review in High Court
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paul1609
Established Member
Indeed MK1 stock on charter trains on the mainline operates on another derogation because of crashworthyness. Its why I don't think CDL will be fitted to other than a handful of mk1s (catering and possibly brake vehicles) because you could spend £x million on getting the fit approved and fitted only for the ORR to not renew the crash worthyness derogation in 2028. I have no opinion either way on WCRC by the way (in case I start off the evangelists again).
AIUI the Swanage Railway DMUs used on the Swanage <> Wareham service which operates on network rail metals between Worgret Junction and Wareham have a derogation which only permits them to operate on that short section because of their (lack of) crashworthiness.
62484GlenLyon
Member
Picking up on this paragraph from WCRC's press release -
James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, West Coast Railways said: “We are extremely disappointed by this decision. We remain committed to working with the ORR to agree how we can safeguard the future of our heritage services. We now ask the regulator to reconsider urgently in the interests of our passengers and business partners, and to allow our exemption to run until 29 February".
Would it not be even more pertinent for WCRC's passengers and business partners to ask why their interests have been treated so poorly by WCRC? If WCRC are so proud of the part that the Jacobite plays in the economic well being of Fort William and Mallaig why have they jeopardised the service? They lost part of the season last year over these safety issues - if they didn't take that as the final warning then they left the ORR with no choice. They should have recalled the old adage - when in a hole, stop digging.
James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, West Coast Railways said: “We are extremely disappointed by this decision. We remain committed to working with the ORR to agree how we can safeguard the future of our heritage services. We now ask the regulator to reconsider urgently in the interests of our passengers and business partners, and to allow our exemption to run until 29 February".
Would it not be even more pertinent for WCRC's passengers and business partners to ask why their interests have been treated so poorly by WCRC? If WCRC are so proud of the part that the Jacobite plays in the economic well being of Fort William and Mallaig why have they jeopardised the service? They lost part of the season last year over these safety issues - if they didn't take that as the final warning then they left the ORR with no choice. They should have recalled the old adage - when in a hole, stop digging.
Mountain Man
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One can't help but wonder if their tactic appears to be keep digging in the desperate hope they reach the other side, fuelled by the sympathy vote.
I can't say I think that it is an effective tactic.....
Killingworth
Established Member
I fought the law and the law won!
renegademaster
Member
Wonder if the long term plan is going to end up getting steam locos air braked so they can pull more modern stock? Weren't a lot of Southern Railway locos air fitted from the start?
Many main line registered steam locos are already dual braked. The Jacobite runs vacuum braked without ETS. Not sure whether the Jacobite locos and stock are dual fitted (though if they were I would expect the operation to be air braked).
Obviously WCRC operated far more than just the Jacobite, though it was their signature operation.
It really is ironic that the Jacobite keeps coming up as the battle ground given that of all the WCRC operations one would have thought that it was the one where a business case could be made to invest....
The afternoon Jacobite usually runs with an air braked set of coaches.
Killingworth
Established Member
Of course LSL and others now have a different problem. How can they take advantage of the gaps that seem likely to open in the market both for the Jacobite and charters generally.
Topic for another thread but there's plenty of demand for those who can match traction, rolling stock and personnel - that's planning, marketing and train crews. Lots of possibilities for those with imagination. Steam and the 1950s aren't essential.
Those tiring old carriages may suit we nostalgic old timers but are today's younger people that bothered? To many of them a trains a train. Thomas and friends can puff up and down on heritage lines and a few mainline specials can still run with compliant coaches.
Topic for another thread but there's plenty of demand for those who can match traction, rolling stock and personnel - that's planning, marketing and train crews. Lots of possibilities for those with imagination. Steam and the 1950s aren't essential.
Those tiring old carriages may suit we nostalgic old timers but are today's younger people that bothered? To many of them a trains a train. Thomas and friends can puff up and down on heritage lines and a few mainline specials can still run with compliant coaches.
I disagree with this one one particular basis - Harry Potter. People of a younger generation still love Mk1 compartment coaches because it makes them feel like they’re onboard the Hogwarts Express whether they’re travelling from Keighley to Oxenhope or Fort William to Mallaig.
Killingworth
Established Member
When I've been on the Jacobite Hogwart's enthusiasts weren't too evident, although I'd accept that publicity may have drawn them to it. Mind you we weren't in compartment coaches.
Bertie the bus
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I'm not so sure I would write the Jacobite off just yet. The penny will have to drop at some point and if it as much of a money spinner people suggest I'm sure WCRC could modify a few carriages with CDL by the summer even if they still refuse to come to an agreement with the ORR regarding the rest of their fleet.
HamworthyGoods
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Bearing in mind 29th Feb is only 6 weeks away you have to wonder what WCRC’s plan was after that!
357
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I highly doubt they would be bothered if they were in a maroon MK1 compartment or in a MK3 that had compartments built inside. It wouldn't surprise me if within the next 15-20 years we see MK3s refurbished with "period" interiors.
The main parts of the coach experience is slamming doors and compartments - most tourists would be happy with that
norbitonflyer
Established Member
I don't think any steam locomotive can provide ETS ?
Narrowgauge725
Member
No but we did used to have ETHAL https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-happened-to-ethel.126574/
Killingworth
Established Member
Currently the WCRC website offers tickets from Apri.
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43096
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ETHEL.
sprinterguy
Established Member
And pertinent to present day operations, steam hauled mainline railtours generally operate with either a generator van in the consist or diesel loco on the rear to provide ETS anyway.
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paul1609
Established Member
When I last went out to Arisaig on the Scotrail service there were 3 coach parties doing the "Route of the Jacobite" experience. The guard made an announcement to get our cameras ready because we were about to cross the "Harry Potter" viaduct. I did wonder at the time if Scotrail were paying Warner Bros the 35ish % of all fares that Heritage railways typically get charged.
I think the issue on the jacobite specifically is that the current train already uses the maximimum length of the passing loops on the West Highland line. So not only do you have to meet the extra costs of the Locomotive or generator van but you also lose the revenue from the coach that you have to take off the train to accomodate the loco or van.
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sprinterguy
Established Member
Yeah, The Jacobite itself is an exception to the rule, and restricted by train length to alter the method of operation as you say, I was mainly considering West Coast's other activities.
43096
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Do you, though? If there is already a "half brake" (BFK/BSK/BCK or whatever) in the train, then a genset in the van area would do the job. There are such vehicles fitted with generators for providing ETS, which is a much bigger power draw than CDL.
paul1609
Established Member
How many of these vehicles are available (I dont know)? The MK1 Generator sets converted for the scottish sleepers and subsequently used in the charter market were full brakes ie no seats.
43096
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There must be a brake vehicle in the Jacobite sets - they can't run without one - so fit a genset in those vehicles.
Riviera have/had 35469, a half brake with genset for ETS - a genset for CDl won't need to be anything like as big.
That Glenfinnan Viaduct was used as a filming location in the Harry Potter films is a fact, and facts cannot be copyrighted.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How many fresh air Mk2s are knocking around still e.g. on preserved lines? Those have a very similar feel (better in some ways e.g. the huge windows) but are monocoque.
paul1609
Established Member
I suspect the answer is not many and of those even less that are fit to go back on the mainline. They were built from 1964 to 1971 so are approaching 60 years old.
paul1609
Established Member
I believe but could be wrong that 35469 has only been used as a support car and not for carrying passengers and that fitting the gen set was a major job as it effected the weight distribution and required significant fire protection equipment.There must be a brake vehicle in the Jacobite sets - they can't run without one - so fit a genset in those vehicles.
Riviera have/had 35469, a half brake with genset for ETS - a genset for CDl won't need to be anything like as big.