Petition for ending cash payments for scrap metal

NSEFAN · 18 Aug 2011

I saw this posted on the WNXX forum, and didn't notice it here.

Cashless Scrap Metal Trade - Amendment to Scrap Metal Merchants Act 1964

This article was also posted, which was an interesting read. I think traceable payments would make getting rid of dodgy metal more difficult, which is necessary given the extent of cable theft which occurs! I have signed, but what do people here think?

RailUK Forums

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Aug 2011

I have signed this petition and I appeal to all other forum members to do the same, considering the number of postings on different threads of this forum about the theft of railway metals over the last few months.

The theft of the cast-iron gully covers on the roads can also lead to some very dangerous situations and this type of theft has been on the increase recently, to the extent that some councils are now trialling heavy-duty plastic ones.

Metroland · 18 Aug 2011

It's a must sign for any enthusiast or regular rail traveller!

bb21 · 18 Aug 2011

Agreed. Signed.

I have also put it in sticky mode for the time being.

Darandio · 18 Aug 2011

Also completely agree, and signed.

MidnightFlyer · 18 Aug 2011

bb21 said:
Agreed. Signed.

I have also put it in sticky mode for the time being.

Erm, why? If I put up a thread to drum up support for something I support, will you sticky that too?

CarterUSM · 18 Aug 2011

Would such an amendment not just push this illicit trade further underground?

NSEFAN · 18 Aug 2011

CarterUSM said:
Would such an amendment not just push this illicit trade further underground?

Perhaps, but if all scrap yards are required to use non-cash payments, how else would a theif get rid of stolen copper without just dumping it?

CarterUSM · 18 Aug 2011

NSEFAN said:
Perhaps, but if all scrap yards are required to use non-cash payments, how else would a theif get rid of stolen copper without just dumping it?

They could just pay them cash on the sly, and it isn't gonna go through the books anyway no doubt.

NSEFAN · 19 Aug 2011

CarterUSM said:
They could just pay them cash on the sly, and it isn't gonna go through the books anyway no doubt.

They could do, but then there would have to be random unnannounced checks on the scrap yards, and an audit done. If something were present which was not on the books, then that would have to be accounted for. The point is to make it difficult for things to be hidden or done on the sly. Eventually it becomes so hard to get rid of stolen metal than it becomes pointless stealing it in the first place.

table38 · 19 Aug 2011

Because of world market prices and organised crime, a lot of stolen copper is now exported to India and China.

Xenophon PCDGS · 19 Aug 2011

NSEFAN said:
They could do, but then there would have to be random unnannounced checks on the scrap yards.

I thought that they were already carrying out such types of unannounced checks on these premises, as part of the current "crack-down" on the matter of stolen metals of all types.

passmore · 19 Aug 2011

I don't mean to be cynical here, but I don't see how signing this petition will automatically mean an end to crimes such as cable theft.
As the petition says at the beginning, the value of metal has increased and thus has become a 'much sought after commodity'. Surely by stopping the means by which the thieves acquire the cash as a result of nicking some copper cable for instance, they will merely switch to other less traceable methods of getting the reward for their illicit activities? Stopping the trade in stolen metal is going to be nigh-on impossible what the rise of the Internet. The thieves will merely switch from an already hard-to-trace method to one that's virtually impossible to detect.
Besides, how does one differentiate between scrap metal that's been acquired legitimately and metal that's been stolen? Won't the amendment disenfranchise the genuine traders of scrap metal?

Xenophon PCDGS · 19 Aug 2011

The thread posted by the OP did refer to:-

Amendments to Scrap Metal Merchants Act 1964

If nothing else, this Act was put on the statue book some 47 years ago and matters have progressed much in the terms of metals used in all parts of modern technology, which mean an updating of this Act is needed.

ChrisCooper · 19 Aug 2011

Just read in the local paper that the Carillon war memorial has had some of it's copper lightning conductors stolen and others damaged for the second time in recent weeks. Shows they have no respect for something that not only honours the towns war dead but is also the iconic symbol of the town. Worst thing is that the value of the copper stolen is tiny, yet the cost of replacing it and repairs is fairly high. At least they would have difficulty getting the very large amounts of copper that make up the roof.

That is the worst thing about metal theft, the costs incured are often massive compared to the actual value of what is stolen. It's like the railways. I bet the value of the cabling stolen in a year is nothing compared to the cost of one theft or attempted theft. In another local case a few years ago they broke into a building and tried to steal copper piping and ended up doing thousands of pounds worth of damage, yet there wasn't £100 worth of copper in the place. Churches suffer badly too. I've heard of cases where enourmous damage has been done inside due to water getting in after lead has been stolen from rooves, and even where priceless stained glass windows have been destroyed to steal the small amounts of lead in them. Churches have replaced lead with cheaper and less valuble alternatives only to have them stolen or damaged by those who think they are lead. The railways suffer the same with fibre optics.

passmore · 19 Aug 2011

Paul Sidorczuk said:
The thread posted by the OP did refer to:-

Amendments to Scrap Metal Merchants Act 1964

If nothing else, this Act was put on the statue book some 47 years ago and matters have progressed much in the terms of metals used in all parts of modern technology, which mean an updating of this Act is needed.

Sure thing, but how would these amendments sort the thieves from the honest merchants?

CarterUSM · 19 Aug 2011

passmore said:
Sure thing, but how would these amendments sort the thieves from the honest merchants?

I agree, I'm not convinced that an amendment will significantly reduce theft or attempted theft of the materials concerned either.

yorksrob · 19 Aug 2011

I don't think it's a case of eliminating - if someone wants to do something bad, they will do it. I think it's a question of making things more difficult for the trouble makers. Some of those nicking copper for example, aren't criminal masterminds (such as the chap who almost got himself fried in Leeds not long ago). If you make it more difficult, more people will give up.

yorkie · 19 Aug 2011

I have signed it.

We need to do all we can. Of course, this alone isn't enough, but it's still well worth supporting IMO.

There also needs to be much tougher sentences on people who steal cable/metals.

yorksrob · 19 Aug 2011

yorkie said:
I have signed it.

We need to do all we can. Of course, this alone isn't enough, but it's still well worth supporting IMO.

There also needs to be much tougher sentences on people who steal cable/metals.

Agree with all points.

passmore · 20 Aug 2011

yorksrob said:
I don't think it's a case of eliminating - if someone wants to do something bad, they will do it. I think it's a question of making things more difficult for the trouble makers. Some of those nicking copper for example, aren't criminal masterminds (such as the chap who almost got himself fried in Leeds not long ago). If you make it more difficult, more people will give up.

Things are difficult enough with the current way they go about getting their cash rewards. As I said, with the rise of technology, they'll most likely go for much more harder-to-trace methods. That may be cynical, but I cannot see how this petition will mean the end to cable theft simply because it might mean more tougher sentences.

I need a lot more convincing to sign this petition.

brianthegiant · 4 Oct 2011

I'm surprised at the level of cynicism in this thread.

I would have thought that as people with an interest in the railways , we can surely see that cable theft is a huge threat to the industry, that needs to be tackled.

The current situation where anyone can turn up at a scrap yard in a transit van and sell copper for cash, surely has to be stopped.

Given the high value of scrap now, the industry can surely afford to self-fund some sort of registration scheme, bank payments, and or other means to improve traceability.

Admitedly the petition could be better worded, it's arguably too specific.
However the detail is not an issue, since any change to the law would involve a consultation process, so the main thing is not to get tied up in the detail of the petition wording but to get the damn thing signed so this gets taken a bit more seriously in Westminster.

Greenback · 4 Oct 2011

brianthegiant said:
I'm surprised at the level of cynicism in this thread.

I'm not.

brianthegiant said:
I would have thought that as people with an interest in the railways , we can surely see that cable theft is a huge threat to the industry, that needs to be tackled.

We can and it does. I would hope that others can see it too, and that an e-pettiion would not be needed to get the problem addressed.

brianthegiant said:
The current situation where anyone can turn up at a scrap yard in a transit van and sell copper for cash, surely has to be stopped.

The question is how?

brianthegiant said:
Given the high value of scrap now, the industry can surely afford to self-fund some sort of registration scheme, bank payments, and or other means to improve traceability.

What sort of scheme? How would it work? Would it be voluntary? How would it be enforced?

brianthegiant said:
Admitedly the petition could be better worded, it's arguably too specific.
However the detail is not an issue, since any change to the law would involve a consultation process, so the main thing is not to get tied up in the detail of the petition wording but to get the damn thing signed so this gets taken a bit more seriously in Westminster.

The reason for my cynicism is the e-petition process itself. In my opinion, anyone who thinks an e-petition will achieve anything is a bit naive.

passmore · 4 Oct 2011

brianthegiant said:
I'm surprised at the level of cynicism in this thread.

I would have thought that as people with an interest in the railways , we can surely see that cable theft is a huge threat to the industry, that needs to be tackled.

The current situation where anyone can turn up at a scrap yard in a transit van and sell copper for cash, surely has to be stopped.

Given the high value of scrap now, the industry can surely afford to self-fund some sort of registration scheme, bank payments, and or other means to improve traceability.

Admitedly the petition could be better worded, it's arguably too specific.
However the detail is not an issue, since any change to the law would involve a consultation process, so the main thing is not to get tied up in the detail of the petition wording but to get the damn thing signed so this gets taken a bit more seriously in Westminster.

It's not cynicism, its genuine concern for a petition that does not go into enough detail about how it would work. Cable theft etc is a nuisance and stopping the thieves getting their reward is one step in the right direction, but how would this amendment work without punishing the honest traders of scrap metal?

yorksrob · 4 Oct 2011

passmore said:
It's not cynicism, its genuine concern for a petition that does not go into enough detail about how it would work. Cable theft etc is a nuisance and stopping the thieves getting their reward is one step in the right direction, but how would this amendment work without punishing the honest traders of scrap metal?

I don't really see how it punishes honest traders of scrap metal. Yes, there would be a cost, but then most organisations have costs that they have to meet.

Lot's of industries are required to have traceable methods of payment. Why should the scrap metal trade be any different. My employer isn't allowed to pay me "cash in hand" for example. Most of the financial services require various levels of complience - and yes, it doesn't stop all fraud. As I said earlier, the idea is to make things more difficult for potential wrongdoers.

Zamracene749 · 4 Oct 2011

Honest traders of scrap metal?

Hahahahahahahahaha..............

Now 'that's' cynicism.

Apart from the few that got that big that they don't need to bother with the small time transit pick up driving rogues anymore, I'm not sure such a thing as an honest scrapman exists.

Up here in the north east it's a plague. Friends in low places confirm this.

Traceability cannot come too soon, although short of a copper (copper see the irony) (iron too...lol) in every scrapyard weigh office i cannot see how it can be achieved?

passmore · 5 Oct 2011

yorksrob said:
I don't really see how it punishes honest traders of scrap metal. Yes, there would be a cost, but then most organisations have costs that they have to meet.

Lot's of industries are required to have traceable methods of payment. Why should the scrap metal trade be any different. My employer isn't allowed to pay me "cash in hand" for example. Most of the financial services require various levels of complience - and yes, it doesn't stop all fraud. As I said earlier, the idea is to make things more difficult for potential wrongdoers.

If this petition is proposing introducing traceable methods of payment into the scrap metal industry, that's fine. What it fails to do is to elaborate on how they can tell whether the payment for one batch of scrap metal is for metal that has been acquired legally, or if its stolen goods.
The idea is sound, the detail is extremely sketchy.

Wyvern · 7 Nov 2011

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/21165

Only 47 signatures so far.

deltic1989 · 7 Nov 2011

I think that the tougher control of the scrap trade would be a good idea. IMHO the easiest way to go about this would be to have all scrap metal collectors registered with thier local authority, then issue an amendment to the current law saying that only registered collectors can take metals to weigh it in, with tough penalties for the registered collectors who handle dodgy metals, along the same lines as the penalties for handleing stolen goods. there would be a charge to obtain a licence to trade in scrap which may discourage the dodgy ones from applying (people interested in making honest money wouldnt mind a small charge for a licence). This is just an idea, it may not be the best idea, im open to hearing opinions.

Petition for ending cash payments for scrap metal

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