Whats the maximum time crossing barriers can be down?

What the maximum time that crossing barriers should be down for trains on a CCTV Crossing?

A workmate was waiting at Armthorpe CCTV crossing on East Coast mainline in excess of 17 minutes for trains to pass.

Who can beat that then?

Also who in law has right of way at road crossings?
As in example a railway swing bridge over a river has to give way to the river as the river was there before the railway and the same on the canal system.
So since the road, trackway or fooypath was established before the railway come along years later, was an Act of Parliament passe giving the railway right of way over road?

Someone out there will know the answers, so thanks in advance.

As soon as the barrier alarm starts sounding and the barriers start lowering, it is no longer a road, it is a railway line. The barriers can be down for as long as they are required to be down AFAIAA.

TP

While we're on the subject, there's now a road sign at Aston-by-Stone that says something like "long delays occur when level crossing barriers are down".

What exactly am I meant to do with that information? :-?

lincolnshire said:

As in example a railway swing bridge over a river has to give way to the river as the river was there before the railway and the same on the canal system.
So since the road, trackway or fooypath was established before the railway come along years later, was an Act of Parliament passe giving the railway right of way over road?

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Any interaction between the proposed railway line and any other rights of way would have been settled precisely with the landowner and specified in the Act. For instance any diversion of such right of way due to crossing on the skew. As an example you'll notice with many brick or stone railway bridges the line is straight but the road does a dog leg.

lincolnshire said:

A workmate was waiting at Armthorpe CCTV crossing on East Coast mainline in excess of 17 minutes for trains to pass.

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Is Armthorpe on the ECML? Arksey, perhaps?

OuterDistant said:

While we're on the subject, there's now a road sign at Aston-by-Stone that says something like "long delays occur when level crossing barriers are down".

What exactly am I meant to do with that information? :-?

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Use your loaf and find another route or prepare to wait...not call the signaller wanting to know how long its going to be.

As for how long, well its takes as long as it takes...there is not theoretical maximum.

I've known Claxby Gatehouse AHB on the Barnetby to Lincoln line to be down for over 2 hours before! Although this was down to a train failing within the crossing controls, and no attendant available to place the barriers onto Local Control to raise them until the assisting engine arrived.

Obviously, rail has priority over road on a level crossing, so if there isn't a safe gap between trains to raise the barriers, let road traffic over and lower the barriers again without delaying the train, the barriers simply stay lowered. Delay should be kept to a minimum, but sometimes the amount of rail traffic could mean this can take several minutes (or hours if a train fails...!).

johnnychips said:

Is Armthorpe on the ECML? Arksey, perhaps?

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No, it is the Kirk Sandall to Bessacarr freight only line, in a cutting, and crossed by a road bridge! Must be somewhere else.

The answer to the question, of course, is however long it takes for the trains to pass. Trains cannot stop and start as easily as motor traffic can. Lincoln High Street is possibly one of the busiest level crossings. Motorist usually can choose to go by an alternative route, mostly trains can't!

Rich_D3167 said:

Although this was down to a train failing within the crossing controls, and no attendant available to place the barriers onto Local Control to raise them until the assisting engine arrived.

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I know of a case where a 158 hit a deer severing the air lines and bringing the unit to a halt on Carnaby level crossing, near Bridlington. The unit stayed on the crossing until a fitter and a unit to assist arrived!

OuterDistant said:

While we're on the subject, there's now a road sign at Aston-by-Stone that says something like "long delays occur when level crossing barriers are down".

What exactly am I meant to do with that information? :-?

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1) Study the timetables for the line
2) Find out when trains will be in the area
3) Don't drive at that time
4) Seeempulz.

Michael.Y said:

1) Study the timetables for the line
2) Find out when trains will be in the area
3) Don't drive at that time
4) Seeempulz.

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That is a very dangerous thing to do to be honest, farmers on the HOW line used do that sometimes and think there are no trains and you are running 20 mins late so it aint seeempulz the seeepulz thing to do is either take a different route or allow extra time for your journey

Possibly left out some other info: by the time you get to the sign you're already stuck, and to add insult to injury, it's because the queue is tailing back over a crossroads, which is the only entrance to a housing estate I'm usually trying to get into (i.e. I don't even want to go down the road with the crossing on!)

To answer the original questions :

Maximum time - there isn't. In theory it could be forever if the trains kept coming. I often think this is the best way to persuade local authorities to find a way to build a bridge.

Right of way - this is covered by the level crossing order, a legal document in place for each public highway LC. Essentially it (usually) says words to the effect of the road will be closed for the safe passage of trains.

Swingbridges are a bit different, as there are some obscure and archaic acts of parliament specifically about rail over water swingbridges. The fine for obstructing the waterway by leaving it closed (£20 a day from memory) still applies.

Bald Rick said:

To answer the original questions :

Maximum time - there isn't. In theory it could be forever if the trains kept coming. I often think this is the best way to persuade local authorities to find a way to build a bridge.

Right of way - this is covered by the level crossing order, a legal document in place for each public highway LC. Essentially it (usually) says words to the effect of the road will be closed for the safe passage of trains.

Swingbridges are a bit different, as there are some obscure and archaic acts of parliament specifically about rail over water swingbridges. The fine for obstructing the waterway by leaving it closed (£20 a day from memory) still applies.

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That's something I've often wondered about. If I'm heading for Trowse swing bridge in a sailing yacht, moving fairly quickly, what happens? It's a main line, so stopping a couple of expresses for one yacht seems a bit far-fetched. Thing is, stopping to lower mast and sail takes ages, as does putting them back up again on the other side, added to a risky manoeuvre using only a quant (if I don't have an engine) to get through the bridge. What do I do?

Bald Rick said:

Swingbridges are a bit different, as there are some obscure and archaic acts of parliament specifically about rail over water swingbridges. The fine for obstructing the waterway by leaving it closed (£20 a day from memory) still applies.

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At the end of the day it's about safety. Trains can stop, boats can't (not easily and safely), especially large commercial vessels of the sort that usually require bridges opening, or sailcraft, as smaller motor boats can pass under the majority of bridges without them being opened. It's also important to remember that whilst it's not so much the case now, at the time the railways were opening the waterways were very important transport arteries, particularly when it came to international trade, wheras it took a long time before railways really became the important transporters of passengers and freight they are now.

LE Greys said:

That's something I've often wondered about. If I'm heading for Trowse swing bridge in a sailing yacht, moving fairly quickly, what happens? It's a main line, so stopping a couple of expresses for one yacht seems a bit far-fetched. Thing is, stopping to lower mast and sail takes ages, as does putting them back up again on the other side, added to a risky manoeuvre using only a quant (if I don't have an engine) to get through the bridge. What do I do?

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How does trowse swing bridge work, with the OLE please?

34D said:

How does trowse swing bridge work, with the OLE please?

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I've asked that one a few times. Apparently, there is an electrified rail running at OHLE height supported by insulated masts.

34D said:

How does trowse swing bridge work, with the OLE please?

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Well, when the bridge is working (which it isn't, that's another story...)

It has published opening times, a few times a day, matched to gaps of more than 10 minutes in the train service. The signaller in Trowse signal box gets the release from Colcehster PSB, then pushes a button, and the bridge does all its stuff automatically.

The OLE on the bridge is a solid bar - a bit like a small section conductor rail. It is staggered at each end of the bridge so that it swings free. Before the bridge swings, motorised switches isolate the OLE across the bridge to prevent arcing, although the OLE on either bank remains connected by a separate HV cable.

This link may be of interest
http://www.gersociety.org.uk/index....egory&layout=blog&id=13&Itemid=6&limitstart=6

Trowse is by far the most modern and easy to operate of the 4 broadland swingbridges. It is also the most useless, as a couple of hundred metres upstream is a highway bridge which blocks high river traffic. Trowse was out of use for well over 2 years until last April, and although there were considerable complaints from the Broads authority, no-one really noticed.

The other bridges in the broads all have Marine Radio, and the signallers talk to boat drivers (err captains) to give information on when the bridge can open for them. Every so often there is a bridge bash, by a boat whose captain thought he could squeeze under, but the bridge is odds on favourite in all such meetings. Not on the Broads but there was a bridge bash on Cannon St bridge a couple of days ago; the response is exactly the same as for regular highway bridge bashes.

OuterDistant said:

While we're on the subject, there's now a road sign at Aston-by-Stone that says something like "long delays occur when level crossing barriers are down".

What exactly am I meant to do with that information? :-?

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Take it up the proverbial backside - or at least that's what Network Rail and others in the rail industry expect you to do.

As a slight aside, mind you, state-sanctioned (near) monopoly (+/- subsidy) and excessive profits = fascist economics and that's how rail privatisation has pretty much worked out
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transportphoto said:

As soon as the barrier alarm starts sounding and the barriers start lowering, it is no longer a road, it is a railway line. The barriers can be down for as long as they are required to be down AFAIAA.

TP

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Please, do we have to go through this again? It might not be the case on non-road level crossings (such as the notorious Wareham (Dorset) LC), but the position is not as clear for highway (road) level crossings (with the same AFAIAA rider as above
). My understanding is that they are highway (legal term for road) all the time and railway all the time, as at least one incident (Moreton-in-Lugg) has proven. If the only thing stopping it being railway is signals and train protection, how is it not railway when the barriers are up?

My understanding is that the barriers are obstructions, albeit ones that the law allows. There is something in the RSSB report re: the Moreton-in-Lugg incident IIRC about the signalman being required to keep the barriers up when not needed having put him under pressure. However, gates etc. may be a different matter.

Network Rail could easily skip the tresspass/not trespass on level crossings debate by installing flashing red men ("Diagram 4006" IIRC) which have legal backing with a penalty equivalent to trespass without having to argue ownership (albeit a different offence to trespass IIRC). Surely it can't be that expensive or otherwise to add that on. Oh wait, see my previous post .

Then, there is also the matter of half-barriered or un-barriered crossings. The point of railway start/end for road users then becomes unclear since there is no effective marking for at least half the crossing.

Of course, all of the above is of little to no use for drivers of vehicles who are mandated to obey the flashing red lights in all circumstances anyway.