It may have been able to have been more viable if Virgin had allowed it to call at some of the stations that they called at. As it was it was only catering for passengers to London and not passengers to say Birmingham. As such when (whoever runs the new franchise starts the service) it runs it will attract more passengers because it will call at more places and therefore be viable (even without the savings of it being part of a larger operation)
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First win Intercity West Coast franchise
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It may have been able to have been more viable if Virgin had allowed it to call at some of the stations that they called at. As it was it was only catering for passengers to London and not passengers to say Birmingham. As such when (whoever runs the new franchise starts the service) it runs it will attract more passengers because it will call at more places and therefore be viable (even without the savings of it being part of a larger operation)
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Donny Dave
Established Member
At the end of the day, Virgin and LM didn't have a say in the matter, due to the Moderation of Competition clause put into their franchise agreements by the DfT following the WCRM.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Exactly - it wasn't Virgin who created the Moderation of Competition clause, I'm not sure why they are made out to be the bad guys here. The rules were in place before WSMR, and no goalposts were moved once they started running their service.
I'll defend Virgin on some things - not on their reaction to the WCML franchise bid though!
OK, thank you for the information. The main point I was making was that with additional stops along the route, direct trains to Shrewsbury would likely be a viable service for whoever ran it (either VT or FG), which wasn't an option before.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
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Believe it or not the number of complaints that FCC have got from passengers have actually reduced in number from 2007 - as part of a course I attended last week we had to give our predictions to the figures if they were higher or lower then the actual results.
Put it this way I was surprised by the results!
EM2
Established Member
Virgin have more complaints per 100k passengers (258) than four First franchises (FCC FGW FTPE and FSR) combined (213).
And they reply to less than 60% of those complaints within the industry standard 20 working days.
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/8ab9d22e-8ed7-443e-bbc4-8fd2d83bdea5 and there's even more to pick through here: http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/browsereports/6
And they reply to less than 60% of those complaints within the industry standard 20 working days.
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/8ab9d22e-8ed7-443e-bbc4-8fd2d83bdea5 and there's even more to pick through here: http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/browsereports/6
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
People forget that VT had no stock for additional services to Blackpool/Shrewsbury, and there won't be any until the new Birm-Scot trains are delivered to First.
DfT/SRA did not require the WC franchisee to provide these services before, nor in the core spec for the new bids.
Even now it's not clear if First is introducing them as a commercial venture on top of the core service, or whether it is part of a new core spec.
DfT might have bought the extras (for a modified premium profile), or First might have offered them on top (at their risk).
Something else we will probably never know!
tbtc
Veteran Member
I think that a Shrewsbury service could be viable - London to the West Midlands is busy and the West Midlands to Shropshire is busy, so a direct service should do fairly well, even if it doesn't make much difference to the numbers doing the journey from London to Shrewsbury (if that makes sense) - ATW and LM seem to struggle to match demand west of Wolverhampton, so a Voyager ought to be busy even if mainly with local traffic.
The WSMR idea was nice, but it was quite a "high end" service. For example, there are a lot of comments about how nice the food was, and how much attention staff gave passengers and how well looked after the trains were - but you can do that when you have fifty five staff and only three return services a day. In contrast, Grand Central and Hull Trains have never aimed at Orient Express levels of service, but they have built up an apparently sustainable Open Access operation.
Hopefully with spare trains being ordered (compared to Virgin, who needed all of their Voyagers and 390s for the basic VHF service pattern) there'll be scope to give Shrewsbury (and Blackpool etc) a decent level of service.
3141
Established Member
My recollection is that the Moderation of Competition was there from the beginning of the Virgin West Coast franchise, at Virgin's insistence, and the then Office of Rail Franchising agreed. Virgin wanted it because of the investment they would be making and the track access charges they would have to pay when the West Coast upgrade was completed.
One casualty of the Moderation of Competition in those early days (of privatisation) was the Rochdale to London service that North Western wanted to operate.
I don't know about First, but it wasn't part of the core spec and at least one bidder thought it was commercially viable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Snipped for brevity, as everything written therein is correct.
First appear to be having a particularly bad time with buses; but it may just be that they're "fessing up", and others prefer to keep their problems quiet; or maybe they have just been hit harder; or maybe they are less efficient - it's hard to say. However, all bus companies have been hit hard over the last few years:
1. The rise in price of fuel has squeezed them badly - there's a limit to how much they can raise prices; and it's certainly below the level of fuel rises.
2. Government (via local government who get less support) reduced the subsidy on "free" (free to the traveller that is) bus passes. Essentially it meant that they have increased the discount on the normal fare that they pay the bus operator. On some routes the majority of passengers are using these passes, and the reduction can make the route not worth running.
3. Direct subsidies have been cut on routes that are not commercial; this immediately translates into service cuts.
I've spoken to a number of busmen. They do not want to cut services; but they are not a charity, and many routes need subsidies to run.
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I know only too well how much fuel prices has impacted on me, so can imagine how it is affecting bus operators.
Incidentally, my parents recently got some cheap first class tickets to Swansea on FGW (just £100 for both of them, with a senior railcard) for a long weekend and they probably don't know anything about the fuss over First/Virgin. Anyway, they got back this evening and called to say how wonderful the weekend was, including how modern the train was (presumably they meant interior wise!!) and how fantastic the lounge at Paddington was!!
My dad pointed out how much nicer the lounge was than Virgin's one at Euston (they recently went to Glasgow on Virgin) and how they got a much better service on the train - with free flowing drinks, crisps and muffins etc. (They travelled midday, so I don't know if they'd have got more earlier/later in the day).
The only gripe was that my dad couldn't connect his iPad to Wi-Fi - but I'm not even sure if the HSTs have Wi-Fi?!
My mum can sometimes be quite picky (and, annoyingly they booked their tickets via thetrainline.com - grrr!) so all in all, hearing such good things about FGW perhaps puts things into perspective a little, given all we hear about Virgin being the best company in the universe.
Incidentally, my parents recently got some cheap first class tickets to Swansea on FGW (just £100 for both of them, with a senior railcard) for a long weekend and they probably don't know anything about the fuss over First/Virgin. Anyway, they got back this evening and called to say how wonderful the weekend was, including how modern the train was (presumably they meant interior wise!!) and how fantastic the lounge at Paddington was!!
My dad pointed out how much nicer the lounge was than Virgin's one at Euston (they recently went to Glasgow on Virgin) and how they got a much better service on the train - with free flowing drinks, crisps and muffins etc. (They travelled midday, so I don't know if they'd have got more earlier/later in the day).
The only gripe was that my dad couldn't connect his iPad to Wi-Fi - but I'm not even sure if the HSTs have Wi-Fi?!
My mum can sometimes be quite picky (and, annoyingly they booked their tickets via thetrainline.com - grrr!) so all in all, hearing such good things about FGW perhaps puts things into perspective a little, given all we hear about Virgin being the best company in the universe.
Whistler40145
Established Member
What's the current state of play with the West Coast franchise as it seems to have gone very quiet.
Still waiting on the judge to decide if there's a case. The delay seems to be down to the complexity/volume of the paperwork involved (at least that's what I've heard). In the meantime DOR seem to be on hot standby to take over if needs be.
Whistler40145
Established Member
Thanks for clarifying the situation.
Aictos
Established Member
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- 10,403
I don't think any FGW train has onboard WiFi yet?
In fairness I think FGW are the only inter-city TOC that doesn't have Wi-Fi or even a plan to fit Wi-Fi (though I guess it will be a requirement of the next franchise) so it's pretty unusual at this point.
I'd have thought that the IEP's will have it fitted as standard. Which then means that they only have to fit it to the trains that they use for the West of England services, rather than having to roll it out to the whole of their IC125 fleet.
Also FGW released information about having Wi-Fi on their North Cotswold services (run by Class 180's), so they are starting to have it:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/...st-Great-Western-to-launch-WiFi-on-its-trains
BrianTheLion
Member
Is there still time for this decision to be reversed?
I just noticed when looking at National Rail website that tickets for post takeover dates (eg. 11th Dec) are still showing as being operated by Virgin Trains and still have the various TOC specific tickets as options.
When should we expect to see First's name everywhere?
I just noticed when looking at National Rail website that tickets for post takeover dates (eg. 11th Dec) are still showing as being operated by Virgin Trains and still have the various TOC specific tickets as options.
When should we expect to see First's name everywhere?
Eagle
Established Member
That's been the case at every franchise changeover IIRC (websites and ticketing systems and such aren't updated until the actual date of changeover, or later).
BrianTheLion
Member
That's fair enough... seems a little silly though from the viewpoint of potential confusion, especially in the run up to christmas.
I can just see it now all those folk with Virgin Trains only tickets looking for something that doesnt exist any longer....
calc7
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Aug 2011
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What's the alternative...?
BrianTheLion
Member
Well some indication of who's going to be operating the service would be nice. Is it that hard to put extra information onto a website?
Surely something stating "as of 9th dec, all services will be operated by....." and then clarification that all pre purchased tickets will be valid for the service(s) shown on their tickets....
You have to remember some people will be oblivious to the takeover and the festive season is always busy...
Eagle
Established Member
Being as such information doesn't exist yet, I'll let you do the maths. :P
BrianTheLion
Member
Earlier I asked "Is there still time for this decision to be reversed?"
your answer clarifies this for me....so thank you....
What makes you think there is any possibility of the decision being reversed? It isn't. If it was the Government would have done so by now.
The decision can be technically declared void by the court but that still won't be a reversal. We currently don't know who will be running the service at Christmas; it could be FirstGroup or DOR.
I assume that if it is declared void the whole process would have to begin from scratch with DOR running the franchise in the interim?
That would be the likely outcome if the whole process was determined to be either illegal or anti-competitive. If, however, the court determined the process was basically sound but some fairly minor procedural errors existed then all the SoS would have to do is reconsider, and would quite likely come to the same decision.
I think in the end it all comes down to timing, when a decision is made, and when the bids expire.
I think in the end it all comes down to timing, when a decision is made, and when the bids expire.
If DOR are unable to take over time (it has been suggested quite a bit needs to be done including getting a safety case) though, could Virgin continue to run the franchise on a management contract?
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