Thameslink Wimbledon loop "saved"

ChiefPlanner · 22 Jan 2013

I think the Wimbledon loop is up for resignalling and recontrol - much to remain as it is I think ....(bar maybe more tram access to Wdn station)

RailUK Forums

greatkingrat · 22 Jan 2013

The recently published Network Specification documents give a different GN pattern

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_Specifications.aspx

2 tph Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn
4 tph Thameslink Core to Cambridge
2 tph (peak only) Kings Cross to Peterborough
2 tph Thameslink Core to Peterborough
2 tph Thameslink Core to Welwyn Garden City
2 tph (peak only) Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City
2 tph Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City
4 tph (8 high peak) Moorgate to Gordon Hill/Hertford North
2 tph Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North

Class377/5 · 22 Jan 2013

greatkingrat said:
The recently published Network Specification documents give a different GN pattern

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_Specifications.aspx

2 tph Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn
4 tph Thameslink Core to Cambridge
2 tph (peak only) Kings Cross to Peterborough
2 tph Thameslink Core to Peterborough
2 tph Thameslink Core to Welwyn Garden City
2 tph (peak only) Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City
2 tph Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City
4 tph (8 high peak) Moorgate to Gordon Hill/Hertford North
2 tph Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North

Thanks for hat. I hadn't looked at the LNE one as still going through some other documents. Interesting change around but looks like I lose 2tph to the Core from my local station.

fusionblue · 23 Jan 2013

Class377/5 said:
That's a fair question however Elephant & Castle is only 8 cars (expect 7 car platform 1) and on a viaduct. That cost allow will make it very difficult to justify going to 12 cars on the Catford Loop.

Elephant has been terribly handled, not solely because of the viaduct and "it's difficult and costly to be extended" but because of the immediate surrounding area. Both at the south end of platform 1 and the north end of platform 4 new buildings have gone up that have chewed up all the space.

Ignoring Elephant though, has any reason been given to anything else from Denmark Hill to Sevenoaks that cannot be extended?

glbotu · 23 Jan 2013

greatkingrat said:
The recently published Network Specification documents give a different GN pattern

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_Specifications.aspx

2 tph Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn
4 tph Thameslink Core to Cambridge
2 tph (peak only) Kings Cross to Peterborough
2 tph Thameslink Core to Peterborough
2 tph Thameslink Core to Welwyn Garden City
2 tph (peak only) Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City
2 tph Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City
4 tph (8 high peak) Moorgate to Gordon Hill/Hertford North
2 tph Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North

So have they added the 2tph between Hitchin and Cambridge by removing the 1tph Stevenage - Letchworth, or is that a direct result of the flyover?

cle · 23 Jan 2013

Is the flyover ready?

So they're falling foul to the South London problem on the Welwyn slow branch, where every line wants a service to multiple terminals. People on other lines cope when they don't have a choice, so I don't see why they should suddenly dilute high-frequency services.

I thought concentrating one side to Thameslink and the other to Moorgate was a clever use of the new lines and infrastructure - and would allow higher frequencies and simplified routing.

philjo · 23 Jan 2013

Track laying on the flyover is due to take place on 10-12 February

http://hitchingradeseparation.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/wintery-scene-at-construction-site.html

Officially the flyover is in use from December but I think the plan is to use it from June onwards.

Are all 4tph Cambridge services running via Welwyn, as together with 2tph KX-Kings Lynn and 2tph to Peterborough that is double the current number of off-peak FCC outer services running through Stevenage.
I assume the 2tph to Peterborough will both be fast south of Stevenage so the semi-fast calling at Intermediate stations now go to Cambridge (previously I think 1 of these was to terminate at Letchworth)
there is no mention of the Moorgate - Stevenage via Hertford train going on to Letchworth any more so probably at least 1tph of the Cambridge services will partially replace this?

87015 · 23 Jan 2013

cle said:
So they're falling foul to the South London problem on the Welwyn slow branch, where every line wants a service to multiple terminals. People on other lines cope when they don't have a choice, so I don't see why they should suddenly dilute high-frequency services.

I thought concentrating one side to Thameslink and the other to Moorgate was a clever use of the new lines and infrastructure - and would allow higher frequencies and simplified routing.

Could Finsbury Park cope with the numbers of people changing train that would cause? It can barely get by with the current number of leapers and that is just people going to LUL.
There will be multiple crossovers between the lines anyway, so it shouldn't have any affect on what can run with multiple oppurtunities to move stuff across without any conflict.

Aictos · 23 Jan 2013

Class377/5 said:
That's a fair question however Elephant & Castle is only 8 cars (expect 7 car platform 1) and on a viaduct. That cost allow will make it very difficult to justify going to 12 cars on the Catford Loop.

No, final plan is for Welywn Garden City trains to use SDO on a few of the stations (Harringay & Hornsey) as they will be only 6 cars long under current plans. (While 6 car 313 whizz past non stop I might add.

There is scope for a extra 12 car route but I'm not fully looked into it (and don't have an idea what route it would be).

I'm still thinking that a 9 car loop would work ok. Few signals may need moving bu other than Mitcham Junction, don't know of any major issues around the loop. Especially using SDO for a single set of doors either end. Wimbledon could be extended to 12 cars in the forthcoming rebuild anyway.

Are you sure about Hornsey and Harringay though, last time I checked these stations were going to be extended to 8 cars - think it was some Network Rail or FCC document I saw.

Much like Alexandra Palace was going to be extended to 12 cars as well.

tbtc · 23 Jan 2013

cle said:
I thought concentrating one side to Thameslink and the other to Moorgate was a clever use of the new lines and infrastructure - and would allow higher frequencies and simplified routing.

That was my understanding too

glbotu · 23 Jan 2013

philjo said:
Track laying on the flyover is due to take place on 10-12 February

http://hitchingradeseparation.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/wintery-scene-at-construction-site.html

Officially the flyover is in use from December but I think the plan is to use it from June onwards.

Are all 4tph Cambridge services running via Welwyn, as together with 2tph KX-Kings Lynn and 2tph to Peterborough that is double the current number of off-peak FCC outer services running through Stevenage.
I assume the 2tph to Peterborough will both be fast south of Stevenage so the semi-fast calling at Intermediate stations now go to Cambridge (previously I think 1 of these was to terminate at Letchworth)
there is no mention of the Moorgate - Stevenage via Hertford train going on to Letchworth any more so probably at least 1tph of the Cambridge services will partially replace this?

I'd assume they'd want to run all the Cambridge services via Welwyn, as it would otherwise add a considerable amount of time onto the journey. I also assume the KGX - Ely/Lynn service will be 2 tph Cambridge Cruisers, meaning the other 4 (from the core), will be 2tph semi-fast (Finsbury Pk, Stevenage then all-stations) and 2tph slow (Finsbury Pk, Potters Bar, Hatfield, then all-stations), which I believe is currently 1tph each. Will this then take Letchworth CS out of use.

The Peterborough services will surely be as they are now, 1tph Slow and 1 tph fast. That's limited by Peterborough - Huntingdon 2 tracked section, which I don't think has 4 tracking plans within the scope of Thameslink.

greatkingrat · 23 Jan 2013

glbotu said:
I'd assume they'd want to run all the Cambridge services via Welwyn, as it would otherwise add a considerable amount of time onto the journey. I also assume the KGX - Ely/Lynn service will be 2 tph Cambridge Cruisers, meaning the other 4 (from the core), will be 2tph semi-fast (Finsbury Pk, Stevenage then all-stations) and 2tph slow (Finsbury Pk, Potters Bar, Hatfield, then all-stations), which I believe is currently 1tph each. Will this then take Letchworth CS out of use.

I doubt they will have 4tph stopping at all stations on the Cambridge branch. It will probably be two fast, two all-stations, two semi-fast (Letchworth, Baldock and Royston only)

Mintona · 23 Jan 2013

I'm looking forward to this all being decided and finished, especially as I am likely to be driving trains to all these exciting new destinations :lol:

mister-sparky · 23 Jan 2013

Nothing concrete has been decided yet with regards to routes and frequencies. There's so many potential ones floating about. It will all be different by 2018.

jopsuk · 23 Jan 2013

greatkingrat said:
The recently published Network Specification documents give a different GN pattern

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_Specifications.aspx

I notice these mention IEP trains being "Class 800/801".

Uzair · 23 Jan 2013

I would happily change at Blackfriars for an increased service on the Wimbledon loop. Service at the moment is rubbish. 2tph is not good enough. The weekday 0747 from Wimbledon to Sutton is packed when it arrives at Wimbledon, and the 0758 Wimbledon to Luton gets quite busy too.

Class377/5 · 23 Jan 2013

greatkingrat said:
I doubt they will have 4tph stopping at all stations on the Cambridge branch. It will probably be two fast, two all-stations, two semi-fast (Letchworth, Baldock and Royston only)

My thoughts were that one of the Welywn trains is sped up and extended to Cambridge.

HLE 13 said:
Are you sure about Hornsey and Harringay though, last time I checked these stations were going to be extended to 8 cars - think it was some Network Rail or FCC document I saw.

Much like Alexandra Palace was going to be extended to 12 cars as well.

There's been a local kick off last year with the MP questioning Network Rail over running Hertford services fast and lowering the frequencies. They were told gap would be filled by SDO 8 car Desiro Cities from Thameslink.

I've not seen any document about extending them myself. Question is is a was going to but thy've cut them to keep in budget.

fusionblue said:
Elephant has been terribly handled, not solely because of the viaduct and "it's difficult and costly to be extended" but because of the immediate surrounding area. Both at the south end of platform 1 and the north end of platform 4 new buildings have gone up that have chewed up all the space.

Ignoring Elephant though, has any reason been given to anything else from Denmark Hill to Sevenoaks that cannot be extended?

Don't forget that platform is actually 7 cars.

I'm not sure but is there room on the viaduct to make Denmark Hill 12 cars? I'm not familiar with platform lengths on that part of the network.

However rebuilding Elephant is only soluation but that may require a fair bit if land. Is the ex council estate still empty? Been awhile since I was last there.

fusionblue · 24 Jan 2013

Class377/5 said:
Don't forget that platform is actually 7 cars.

I'm not sure but is there room on the viaduct to make Denmark Hill 12 cars? I'm not familiar with platform lengths on that part of the network.

However rebuilding Elephant is only soluation but that may require a fair bit if land. Is the ex council estate still empty? Been awhile since I was last there.

It's still there. I think it's been empty from when work on rebuilding Blackfriars started. I believe Elephant's (terrible, dated) connecting shopping centre is due to be demolished in 2014. I don't know the planning permission but it may allow provision for extra space. Even then, i don't know how much good that will do if the buildings at all 4 corners aren't demolished to make more room.

Random thought: I would have preferred a Westfield Elephant over a Westfield Croydon (or possibly Stratford) mainly because the whole area needs regenerating, including the station and surrounding areas/homes.

westcoaster · 24 Jan 2013

fusionblue said:
Elephant has been terribly handled, not solely because of the viaduct and "it's difficult and costly to be extended" but because of the immediate surrounding area. Both at the south end of platform 1 and the north end of platform 4 new buildings have gone up that have chewed up all the space.

Ignoring Elephant though, has any reason been given to anything else from Denmark Hill to Sevenoaks that cannot be extended?

Right where shall I start ( by ends London end obvious, country end = Sevenoaks

Denmark hill- in a cutting with tunnels both ends, you could extend towards the country end

Peckham rye- on a viaduct much the same problems as elephant

Nunhead- on an embankment could be problematic as you have a junction at the country end, so you would have to extend both ways

Crofton park - easy extend the country end as there is an overbridge at the London end

Catford - again same problem as elephant

Bellingham - extend towards the London end

Beckingham hill - problem bridges at both ends

Ravensbourne - problems include overbridge at the London end and junction at the country end

Shortlands - another elephant and castle

Bromley - already 12 car

Bickley - extend towards London end but some remodelling to track needed

St Mary cray - already 12 car

Swanley - already 12 car

Eynesford - extend towards the country end

Shoreham - extend either way

Otford - extend towards the country end

Bat & ball - extend towards the London end

Hope that helps.

fusionblue · 24 Jan 2013

westcoaster said:
Right where shall I start ( by ends London end obvious, country end = Sevenoaks

*snip*

Hope that helps.

Thanks. It seems a lot of the busier stations towards the centre (Catford, Peckham, Nunhead, Elephant) all have the same difficulty which may make the whole idea pointless. If you can't provide capacity for the busiest why bother at all?

leytongabriel · 27 Jan 2013

C Johnson has got it right - this is a political decision, not a transport one.
As he says, doesn't hurt to have the transport minister as MP for Wimbledon or the fact that the line serves the highly marginal constituencies of Sutton & Cheam and Tooting.

Class377/5 · 28 Jan 2013

leytongabriel said:
C Johnson has got it right - this is a political decision, not a transport one.
As he says, doesn't hurt to have the transport minister as MP for Wimbledon or the fact that the line serves the highly marginal constituencies of Sutton & Cheam and Tooting.

Why shouldn't it be a political decision? They had years of altered train service and then they were to get the worst deal. Why not allow them to continue with the service when they've had for nearly 20yrs? Travel patterns have developed as a result of such a long term service.

fusionblue said:
It's still there. I think it's been empty from when work on rebuilding Blackfriars started. I believe Elephant's (terrible, dated) connecting shopping centre is due to be demolished in 2014. I don't know the planning permission but it may allow provision for extra space. Even then, i don't know how much good that will do if the buildings at all 4 corners aren't demolished to make more room.

Random thought: I would have preferred a Westfield Elephant over a Westfield Croydon (or possibly Stratford) mainly because the whole area needs regenerating, including the station and surrounding areas/homes.

There used to be plans for a complete rebuild. There should be enough room for 12 car platforms at a push, least on the fast lines.

Cletus · 1 Feb 2013

A typically detailed London Reconnections article:

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/thameslink-losing-the-plot-whilst-looping-the-loop/

NSEFAN · 2 Feb 2013

Cletus said:
A typically detailed London Reconnections article:

Now THAT is a cracking article!

Sparks169 · 14 Feb 2013

Rumour has it that the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches will be losing their proposed Thameslink service and it will be shifted elsewhere. I have no reliable source for this but it is what has been said elsewhere by general speculation.

But of course the entire route proposals are essentially speculation at the moment. Any "proposed" routes are just that and subject to change.

mchunt · 14 Feb 2013

Sparks169 said:
Rumour has it that the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches will be losing their proposed Thameslink service and it will be shifted elsewhere. I have no reliable source for this but it is what has been said elsewhere by general speculation.

But of course the entire route proposals are essentially speculation at the moment. Any "proposed" routes are just that and subject to change.

Are those branches going to be handied over to Overground? Thameslink then getting somewhere a bit further out.

cle · 14 Feb 2013

Sparks169 said:
Rumour has it that the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches will be losing their proposed Thameslink service and it will be shifted elsewhere. I have no reliable source for this but it is what has been said elsewhere by general speculation.

But of course the entire route proposals are essentially speculation at the moment. Any "proposed" routes are just that and subject to change.

Shame as even though neither are heavy hitters, it kept Thameslink within the zones but offering a fast service to these suburbs. They used to only get slows!

It was neat and tidy too.

Class377/5 · 14 Feb 2013

Sparks169 said:
Rumour has it that the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches will be losing their proposed Thameslink service and it will be shifted elsewhere. I have no reliable source for this but it is what has been said elsewhere by general speculation.

But of course the entire route proposals are essentially speculation at the moment. Any "proposed" routes are just that and subject to change.

It's a bit of informed sourced information. Cambridge now seems to get 4tph under last plan that was spoken of.

However not all routes are proposed as the recent announcement now sets up the 8tph from Elephant to the Core. The other 8tph from Elephant along with 16tph from London Bridge are up for grabs along with final plan for the northern ends of Thameslink.

mchunt said:
Are those branches going to be handied over to Overground? Thameslink then getting somewhere a bit further out.

Not likely any time soon as TfL has targeted GAML and SE Metro routes for takeover this decade. Unlikely they will be able to take over a 3rd area in same space of time. Plus Thameslink Programme will interfere with their plans. For example TfL state they want Catford Loop yet 2tph won't be under TfL control (currently all the service off peak).

cle said:
Shame as even though neither are heavy hitters, it kept Thameslink within the zones but offering a fast service to these suburbs. They used to only get slows!

It was neat and tidy too.

Why do you assume it makes them get fast services? Would have been simple transferring of routes to Thameslink after New Cross Gate. Thameslink is still expected to provide some services on the slows between Croydon and London Bridge according to NR CP4 update in December.

swt_passenger · 14 Feb 2013

mchunt said:
Are those branches going to be handied over to Overground? Thameslink then getting somewhere a bit further out.

In this context, 'shifted elsewhere' really just means they'll continue as they are now. They (or any similar) service will still be part of the merged Thameslink/Southern franchise.

Sparks169 · 14 Feb 2013

Class377/5 said:
Why do you assume it makes them get fast services? Would have been simple transferring of routes to Thameslink after New Cross Gate. Thameslink is still expected to provide some services on the slows between Croydon and London Bridge according to NR CP4 update in December.

Because Cat/Tat were in the proposals to have 2tph each (fast from Norwood Junction - London Bridge, then stopping to St Albans and Welwyn Garden City) so they would have had 2tph fast into London all day. Tattenham currently gets fast trains to LBG off-peak but Caterham has 4tph stopping service to both VIC and LBG with a 50+ minute journey time unless you change trains.

And it's only since this Loop turnaround that this loss has been mentioned, so the CP4 update in December wouldn't account for that.

Thameslink Wimbledon loop "saved"

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