Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

northwichcat · 11 Aug 2014

nickw1 said:
Similar to the point I've made before, but why on earth introduce evening peak restrictions on trains *into* Manchester anyway? Is the 18.29 out of Buxton, or even the 17.29 for that matter, really going to be loaded with commuters?

There's going to be loads of examples of people being priced off trains with empty seats.

A Stockport to Navigation Rd/Altrincham/Hale Off-Peak ticket will no longer be valid on the 17:58 Stockport-Chester, which usually has a number of spare seats. However, it will be valid on the 18:17 Manchester-Chester (departing Stockport at 18:30) which can have all seats occupied and people standing.

RailUK Forums

Moonshot · 11 Aug 2014

Arctic Troll said:
The best example is for the Network Railcard, which is not valid for use before 10am. This is the list of easements: http://www.network-railcard.co.uk/time-restrictions

The mos extreme example is that you can use your Network Railcard from Worcester as early as 08.26.

The Network Railcard is an interesting one, I ve been banging on about having a single national railcard for everyone which gives 33% off fares and replacing all other railcards.

Until today , I had never seen the Network Railcard, which seems to do exactly what I ve been saying, and does seem to cover a significant chunk of the passengers that use the rail network. Unless I m missing something, is there a reason why that cannot be extended to cover the whole network?

jkdd77 · 11 Aug 2014

Moonshot said:
Have you got any examples of that ? If so , can you give an example of a south east station that is of the same mileage away from London as Buxton is to Manchester. I m not doubting what you say by the way , I d just like to see an example for comparison.

To give an example from the NSE area, restriction code US, set by SWT, as a general rule bars trains due to arrive at London Terminals before 10:00, or from London Terminals before 09:30, but has various easements allowing travel to/ from certain stations before that time.

For example, I have personally travelled on CDRs on the 08:44 from Alton, boarding at Aldershot, even though this train gets into London marginally before 10:00.

The easement applies specifically to boarding at, or travel to, named stations, so, IMO, it would clearly not permit starting short at, say, Brookwood.

The same principle could apply here on Northern's evening services, such that boarding at Buxton on a CDR could be permitted by a specific easement, if the will was there.

northwichcat · 11 Aug 2014

jkdd77 said:
The same principle could apply here on Northern's evening services, such that boarding at Buxton on a CDR could be permitted by a specific easement, if the will was there.

Northern do have a special easement for an early ending of the morning peak on the Buxton line already.

thealexweb · 11 Aug 2014

Northern has confirmed the over 60s TfGM travel pass is valid throughout the evening peak. This is gonna to stir up some resentment.

northwichcat · 11 Aug 2014

thealexweb said:
Northern has confirmed the over 60s TfGM travel pass is valid throughout the evening peak. This is gonna to stir up some resentment.

Even between pensioners. A Handforth resident making a Manchester-Handforth journey at 17:00 will now have to pay the peak fare, while a Cheadle Hulme resident doing Manchester-Cheadle Hulme on the same train travels for free.

hairyhandedfool · 11 Aug 2014

Arctic Troll said:
Individual stations in the south east with infrequent services have easements allowing "off peak" travel when it is still technically "peak". There's a whole stack of easements just for the Network Railcard, too.

I know Serco just love taking other people's money, but there's no reason why it can't be done here. Same for allowing "contra-flow" journeys with off peak tickets.

The whole situation is a complete mess, but then between the money-grabbers at Serco and the Tory cretins at DafT I didn't expect owt else.

jkdd77 said:
To give an example from the NSE area, restriction code US, set by SWT, as a general rule bars trains due to arrive at London Terminals before 10:00, or from London Terminals before 09:30, but has various easements allowing travel to/ from certain stations before that time.

For example, I have personally travelled on CDRs on the 08:44 from Alton, boarding at Aldershot, even though this train gets into London marginally before 10:00.

The easement applies specifically to boarding at, or travel to, named stations, so, IMO, it would clearly not permit starting short at, say, Brookwood.

The same principle could apply here on Northern's evening services, such that boarding at Buxton on a CDR could be permitted by a specific easement, if the will was there.

Do you want a system everyone can understand in a simple way, or do you want an intricate system where even the staff have to look up the restrictions (or guess)?

Merseysider · 11 Aug 2014

hairyhandedfool said:
Do you want a system everyone can understand in a simple way, or do you want an intricate system where even the staff have to look up the restrictions (or guess)?

We want the advantages of both, and the drawbacks of neither!

Realising this isn't possible, a compromise which is easy to understand would allow off-peak travel on a select few trains by way of an easement (eg if it's an hourly service, you can travel off-peak after 18:00). This way everyone would understand and the complaints would be fewer.

Tetchytyke · 11 Aug 2014

hairyhandedfool said:
Do you want a system everyone can understand in a simple way, or do you want an intricate system where even the staff have to look up the restrictions (or guess)?

The system we currently have is something "everyone can understand in a simple way", i.e. anything after 0930 is off-peak.

The money-grabbing thieves at Northern Rail are the ones who are proposing a complex system where staff have to look up the restrictions.

If the money-grabbing thieves at Northern Rail want evening restrictions to be imposed, I'd rather they were fair than simplistic.

hairyhandedfool · 11 Aug 2014

JakeF said:
We want the advantages of both, and the drawbacks of neither! ....

Far too close to the truth I think.

JakeF said:
....Realising this isn't possible, a compromise which is easy to understand would allow off-peak travel on a select few trains by way of an easement (eg if it's an hourly service, you can travel off-peak after 18:00). This way everyone would understand and the complaints would be fewer.

Is it simple though?

Okay, so passengers from Wigan have to wait until 1853 because their service is much better than hourly (1804, 1809, 1824, 1829, 1853, 1859, etc), but passengers from Pemberton can travel at 1801 because the next service is nearly an hour later (1851). Patricroft has an hourly service for most of the day at 7 minutes past, but has an additional service at 1824, so is that hourly? Can they use the 1807? Or the 1824? Or do they have to wait until 1907?

What happens when a Pemberton-Manchester passenger uses the 1809 service from Wigan (1801 from Pemberton) one day and thinks that is fine to use because it is fine from Pemberton and Wigan is closer to Manchester? Should they find it simple to understand that the 1809 service is fine if they'd actually got on at Pemberton (at 1801), but from Wigan they have to wait until the 1853 service?

Moonshot · 11 Aug 2014

Some intersting scenarios popping up here.

Does anyone know if these changes went to public consultation ?

Rail Ranger · 11 Aug 2014

Let's make it clear that these restrictions are being introduced on the orders of the Department for Transport (Northern were required to introduce them by 30th September under the terms of the Direct Award). Basically the funding under the Direct Award is less than under the previous franchise and this is an attempt to bridge the gap by increasing revenue. But as others have said, they have chosen a rather blunt instrument.

Moonshot · 11 Aug 2014

Rail Ranger said:
Let's make it clear that these restrictions are being introduced on the orders of the Department for Transport (Northern were required to introduce them by 30th September under the terms of the Direct Award). Basically the funding under the Direct Award is less than under the previous franchise and this is an attempt to bridge the gap by increasing revenue. But as others have said, they have chosen a rather blunt instrument.

What would you suggest would be a better way ( or ways ) of bridging the funding gap?

hairyhandedfool · 11 Aug 2014

Arctic Troll said:
The system we currently have is something "everyone can understand in a simple way", i.e. anything after 0930 is off-peak.....

Is it? What time can you travel on an off-peak ticket from Manchester to Blackburn? or Blackpool? or Liverpool? or Bolton? What time can you travel from Buxton, Hadfield or Patricroft to Manchester?

Arctic Troll said:
The money-grabbing thieves at Northern Rail are the ones who are proposing a complex system where staff have to look up the restrictions.

If the money-grabbing thieves at Northern Rail want evening restrictions to be imposed, I'd rather they were fair than simplistic.

The evening restrictions are 'not valid between 1600 and 1830', what is complex about that? What is less complex about 'not valid between 1600 and 1830 unless it's one of the following....'.

Why are Northern Rail "money-grabbing thieves" when they are following the instructions of the DfT, who want to spend less money on the railway? Would it have been any different with another company?

Perhaps you'd prefer higher fares all round?

yorkie · 11 Aug 2014

Moonshot said:
What would you suggest would be a better way ( or ways ) of bridging the funding gap?

If Rail Ranger wishes to reply, can I ask it's in a new thread, as this thread is to discuss the Northern evening peak restrictions.

Arctic Troll said:
The system we currently have is something "everyone can understand in a simple way", i.e. anything after 0930 is off-peak.

Not all Off Peak Day fares set by Northern have this restriction!

Arctic Troll said:
The money-grabbing thieves at Northern Rail are the ones who are proposing a complex system where staff have to look up the restrictions.

That is already the case in the morning, it will be extended to be the case in the evening. Staff will then be supposed to issue excess fares to passengers whose ticket is restricted at the time of travel. This will result in less tickets being checked and sold presumably.

Merseysider · 11 Aug 2014

hairyhandedfool said:
Is it simple though?

Okay, so passengers from Wigan have to wait until 1853 because their service is much better than hourly (1804, 1809, 1824, 1829, 1853, 1859, etc), but passengers from Pemberton can travel at 1801 because the next service is nearly an hour later (1851). Patricroft has an hourly service for most of the day at 7 minutes past, but has an additional service at 1824, so is that hourly? Can they use the 1807? Or the 1824? Or do they have to wait until 1907?

What happens when a Pemberton-Manchester passenger uses the 1807 service from Wigan (1801 from Pemberton) one day and thinks that is fine to use because it is fine from Pemberton and Wigan is closer to Manchester? Should they find it simple to understand that the 1807 service is fine if they'd actually got on at Pemberton (at 1801), but from Wigan they have to wait until the 1853 service?

You raise some good examples. I've been on the Kirkby - (Pemberton) - Wigan - Manchester service several times however and it's never been full. I suppose you could allow travel on the 1807 from Wigan as this would reduce overcrowding on other services from up North that also pass through Wigan.

But again, what is simplest and what is 'best' are not necessarily the same thing. A blanket restriction hits some harder than others whereas if you start introducing exceptions left, right and centre you'll end up with a situation like that in London, where even barrier staff don't know what's off-peak sometimes.

I suppose the way to go is to watch it for a month and look at how passengers spread out onto different services in response to the new peak restrictions, and act accordingly (eg retime the train from Buxton by a couple of minutes if pathing allows).

Also, I think a lot of those who have shown vehemence towards the new afternoon peak (myself included) are partly so because it affects them personally, rather than because they see no benefit in it whatsoever. "I'm in favour of Northern raising more revenue as long as I can travel off-peak whenever I want".

I think it's been a long time coming (look at Merseyside - no off-peak travel 16:00 until 18:00 and everyone's used to it). It's the fact that the general public are getting just four weeks' notice of the change which I think is going to cause a lot of problems. The evening returns are going to be missed as that's what set the train apart from the bus.

Howardh · 11 Aug 2014

Will this effect the current £6.60 Bus/Train all-day (after 9.30am) ticket?

telstarbox · 11 Aug 2014

Northern say:

The majority of customers who travel in the evening peak already buy season tickets or anytime fares and won’t be affected by this change. They could also find their trains are less crowded.

Richard Allan, Commercial Director, Northern Rail said: “The majority of customers who travel at peak times, such as those with season tickets, will be unaffected by these changes but we want to make sure that those who are know about what is happening.”

“We have consulted extensively with local stakeholders and with Passenger Focus on the detail of this change, which is part of our new franchise agreement that was announced in March.”

http://www.northernrail.org/news/7507

Deerfold · 11 Aug 2014

telstarbox said:
Northern say:

http://www.northernrail.org/news/7507

Odd that they say how few people it will affect, but then

The change to off-peak tickets is the only option that has been taken forward and will be used to reduce the cost of the railway to taxpayers by reducing subsidy to Northern.

Howardh said:
Will this effect the current £6.60 Bus/Train all-day (after 9.30am) ticket?

If you mean the West Yorkshire Day rover (at £7.70), it's been reported earlier in the thread that it will be affected but Northern's statement is light on detail.

EDIT: NFM19 would suggest that the Day rover will not be affected. If so that should boost sales of day rovers - even the bus and train version is often cheaper than a peak return.

yorkie · 11 Aug 2014

Perhaps someone can FOI the DfT asking how much money it's expected to save, and how many passengers are expected to be affected?

Get the calculators on standby, as someone's sums or claims are probably not going to add up :lol:

northwichcat · 11 Aug 2014

This statement is a bit misleading:

Northern Rail said:
These changes apply to all rail services, not just those operated by Northern, on these routes and between these times.

As Virgin only tickets for Wilmslow/Stockport to Manchester will not be affected.

yorksrob · 11 Aug 2014

Out of interest, how common are peak time restrictions outside of London and the South East ?

northwichcat · 11 Aug 2014

yorksrob said:
Out of interest, how common are peak time restrictions outside of London and the South East ?

Some in the Birmingham and Liverpool areas, so Manchester and Leeds are currently a bit out of line with other major UK cities in not having them.

Howardh · 11 Aug 2014

No, the Greater Manchester System 1 Bus/Train off-peak all day saver!

Moonshot · 11 Aug 2014

jcollins said:
Some in the Birmingham and Liverpool areas, so Manchester and Leeds are currently a bit out of line with other major UK cities in not having them.

So the reality is that these measures just bring us into line with other major UK cities.....though I dont know about the super cheap evening returns, do anywhere else have fares that low in the evening ?

JonathanH · 11 Aug 2014

Moonshot said:
So the reality is that these measures just bring us into line with other major UK cities.....though I dont know about the super cheap evening returns, do anywhere else have fares that low in the evening ?

The West Midlands area also has cheap evening returns (£2.30 for any return) although not a rover. It also has a peak day rover.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=COV&dest=WVH&tkt=EGF

and outside PTE areas

Oxford Evening Out
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/prf5d26b54764470855429d0ef67a73c.aspx

Devon Evening Ranger
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pre884ec0a04000200ad4c9439053fea.aspx

Family Evening Ranger on the Cumbrian Coast
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr99b161c35ce74100f2cedaf7f589a3.aspx

Valley Lines Night Rider
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pra8d52d0a040002018c592e21bc6e1f.aspx

northwichcat · 11 Aug 2014

Moonshot said:
So the reality is that these measures just bring us into line with other major UK cities.....though I dont know about the super cheap evening returns, do anywhere else have fares that low in the evening ?

Those are being withdrawn. I think Abellio trialed them in the Anglia franchise.

Other franchises do offer Super Off-Peak tickets as well as Off-Peak tickets.

theblackwatch · 11 Aug 2014

Moonshot said:
So the reality is that these measures just bring us into line with other major UK cities.....though I dont know about the super cheap evening returns, do anywhere else have fares that low in the evening ?

Although having said that, the likes of London, Birmingham etc doesn't have evening peak restrictions on Travelcards/Daytrippers, so it puts West Yorkshire very much out of line.

hairyhandedfool · 11 Aug 2014

jcollins said:
This statement is a bit misleading:

As Virgin only tickets for Wilmslow/Stockport to Manchester will not be affected.

But it does affect all those routes! It just doesn't affect all tickets.....

Howardh said:
No, the Greater Manchester System 1 Bus/Train off-peak all day saver!

As noted earlier in the thread, the Daysavers will have evening restrictions on rail services in line with the off-peak tickets.

JonathanH · 11 Aug 2014

Moonshot said:
The Network Railcard is an interesting one, I ve been banging on about having a single national railcard for everyone which gives 33% off fares and replacing all other railcards.

Until today , I had never seen the Network Railcard, which seems to do exactly what I ve been saying, and does seem to cover a significant chunk of the passengers that use the rail network. Unless I m missing something, is there a reason why that cannot be extended to cover the whole network?

There have been plenty of discussions about this in the past. The train companies believe that a national railcard would cannibalise revenues (and they are probably right). It is a wonder that the Network Railcard survives still (and that the minimum fare hasn't increased to £15 or even £20 yet).

Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

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