i cannae believe how silly the FCC carnet tickets are!

As I no longer have a season ticket, I recently bought a carnet of off-peak singles on FCC, working out at £5 each to London Terminals. I can then use Oyster PAYG if continuing on by bus/tube.

This morning was my first usage experience, and I was asked to attend a meeting at 9.30am so I had to excess the off-peak ticket for the peak.

So off I went to the ticket office to ask for my excess, to be promptly told that you can't excess them. I asked why, and was told 'you just can't' although I wasn't convinced and it didn't sound like he was either.

He then asked to see my ticket, and asked how much it cost. I said it was £50 for 10 tickets, so he said '£5 each'. Well, not quite.. it's 10 tickets for the price of 9, so that would be £5.55.

Now he goes off to look on another terminal and comes back and said 'When I said you can't do it, I meant I've never done it' (!) and then told me the cost (£1.60 - valid for three months also!).

All the time I've waited, I've been holding my debit card for what I thought would be a quick and easy process so I pop the card in and he then said 'Oh, I've set it for you to pay by cash'. Erm why? He looked perplexed now, so I went into my wallet and gave him a ten pound note instead. Finally, I got my ticket and all the people behind me could finish trying to stab me with their eyes.

But, it didn't end there. I got through the gate and then tried to write the date in the box at the top of the ticket with my pen (yes, I know you're meant to do it before you go through!) which just scratched off the orange colouring.

Being too shiny, I couldn't get the ink to flow and gave up to ask the gateline staff. One of them wrote the date on, and also tore off more of the orange and partly tearing it. someone like my friendly FCC RPI saw me on the train with that, I'd definitely be hauled off to court accused of tampering with the ticket!

Luckily, one of them had a clipper to mark the ticket with the date - which finally solved it... although the ink didn't dry so when I took the ticket out later, I smudged it. Luckily there was no ticket check on the train!

I bought a small permanent marker for the ticket I used on the way back, that doesn't destroy the ticket. Maybe FCC should supply these or set up a section on its website to say how to use these ridiculous things?!

It's lucky they didn't send these out last year instead of the scratchcards, or everyone would be probably up in court soon! As it is, I can't help but think that I'm one of only a very small number of people who are buying these and I think next time I'll just buy a ticket on the day even if means I have to arrive at the station earlier.

EDIT: added photo

jonmorris0844 said:

Now he goes off to look on another terminal and comes back and said 'When I said you can't do it, I meant I've never done it' (!) and then told me the cost (£1.60 - valid for three months also!).

All the time I've waited, I've been holding my debit card for what I thought would be a quick and easy process so I pop the card in and he then said 'Oh, I've set it for you to pay by cash'. Erm why? He looked perplexed now, so I went into my wallet and gave him a ten pound note instead. Finally, I got my ticket and all the people behind me could finish trying to stab me with their eyes.

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To be honest, it's not really his fault that his company has not given him enough training. I'm sure for the majority of customers he is more than competent enough to sort things out.

As for those stabbing you with their eyes, commuters like to whinge. They would dislike it if they were in your position, but they seem unable to see beyond their own little bubble of selfcentredness

Tickets are printed on rubbish coated card, which is useless for being written on or stamped. Why hasn't this been sorted out?

I had a similar problem with a 3 in 7 Rover I bought recently.

Unless you use a Sharpie or similar, you are either not going to be able to write on them, or they are going to smudge.

Is it done because thermal printers are cheaper and require less maintenance? (Actually I don't know if they are or not; that's just a guess.)

They are Indigo, much cheaper because all you do is replace paper, and there is only one moving part.

NatWest Business Banking supply free biros, and they'll do the job nicely, if you're gentle, as the tips are not too sharp. I'm afraid I can't recommend any particular branch near (or indeed in) Hatfield...

A normal ball-point pen will work adequately well for writing on tickets, as will a permanent marker. More highbrow pens generally are useless.

Normally, but there's a glossy finish on the tickets that go through the thermal printers FCC use. So, I've found (from trying on old tickets) that you just make a dent. If you can't get the ink to start flowing, you have to go over and over and very quickly you either go through, or slip and it looks suspiciously like you've made some attempt to tamper with the ticket (to perhaps change a date to re-use the ticket).

It's fine if staff say 'don't worry about it' but we all know that some people aren't like that! If I'd met the RPI that works (worked?) in the fraud team then he'd instantly jump to conclusions - and, to be honest, looking at my ticket I wouldn't blame him this time!

FCC have the scratchcards they give out for complimentary travel and perhaps they need to look at something like that? They could give a ticket that is pre-printed with the start and finish station, then allow the user to scratch off the date.

The only issues to deal with there is putting on an expiry date, and the fact they won't operate the barriers, but I doubt anyone that used one of the free cards they got before Christmas had any problems showing them to a member of staff. You can only get point to point tickets, so it's not as if you'd have a Travelcard version and need to show it all over town (which wouldn't work as TfL would probably go 'what the heck is this?').

I know this isn't the biggest deal in the world, but they've been advertising the carnets for a while now and if anyone else has similar problems, or gets any grief from a RPI that thinks they've been trying to tamper with them, they'll hardly want to buy any more. Or maybe that's the plan?

Does anyone know if the FSR Flexipasses suffer from this problem too?

Yes, though the key apparently , is to be as gentle as possible with the nib of the pen. They are supposed to be more receptive to ink the less pressure is applied. I can't say i'm so sure right enough! I do find ,however, that biro seems to work best on tickets from the booking office, avantix issued slightly less, and very poorly on TVM tickets. It's generally a moot point anyway, if I come across one that isn't filled in, my railway issued thermal ticket pen makes short work of any ticket, and doesn't smudge much either.

FCC should definitely issue (sell?) special pens for carnet tickets. Perhaps a £20 penalty fare for using the wrong type of pen?!

I needed to get another peak excess for a carnet (for tomorrow morning) so I popped over to Hatfield station to be prepared. The woman at the ticket office (only person there at 7pm) first said she didn't think you could get an excess ticket.

I explained that you could, and said how much they were as I've had them before. She still said she didn't think they existed (so, presumably an attempt to accuse me of lying).

After that, she tapped away a bit on the computer and then started asking about how it would be associated with my ticket. I said that when she does the excess, she enters the ticket number on it (I'd given her my off-peak ticket for her to do so) and eventually she decided 'no, we're not allowed to do that'.

She finished by saying that she was officially "refusing" to issue the ticket and that I'd need to buy a peak rate carnet pack as when I buy off-peak I am supposed to only use them off-peak.

So tomorrow morning at 5am, I'm going to need to buy a peak rate single because they can't excess off-peak tickets!

No you're not. If the booking office isn't open you're fully entitled to excess it on arrival, as the full range of tickets wasn't available.

It might be open tomorrow. I think the gates are manned from 0530 and I will most likely get the 0554 train, but I now have to factor in the 'hassle' time. If I get no trouble, I'll end up waiting on a cold platform for no good reason, instead of turning up at 0550!

Bloody hell - what a load of bother. Being able to clearly write the date on a carnet ticket is hard enough, and now I just think I'll go back to buying tickets on the day. A lot less hassle, but more money for FCC.

If only they'd been able to go ahead with adding Oyster acceptance, I wouldn't have to deal with this ****! It's stuff like this that also makes me not feel like shedding a tear if ticket office staff end up in the firing line with future changes. It's lucky they're not all like this, but I have no control on who I'll get from one day to the next.

I would get there at normal time. If they refuse to sell the excess, I would get a peak single rather than queue up at the other end, and complain to FCC about this. Given the previous problems you experienced, I would ask for the price of the carnet ticket back, plus compensation as it was not an isolated case where their staff were so poorly trained.

Station was closed and a single was £9, so I am travelling on my off peak ticket and will ask for the excess at Finsbury Park. They can't PF for an excess, so hopefully it will be fine.

That is unless they say FPK is an illegal break of journey as my ticket is London Terminals! Nothing would surprise me.

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There's nothing in The Manual that says they can't excessed...but then there's nothing to say you can either!

The Terms and Conditions on the FCC website don't mention it either.

Cheers,

Barry

island said:

Does anyone know if the FSR Flexipasses suffer from this problem too?

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Depends where you get them! Waverley's ticket stock is impossible, but the ones from some the the FSR owned stations are far better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hilariously FSR have this to say on their online terms and conditions:

Can I break my journey? Yes

You cannot break your journey other than for connectional purposes.

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make of that what you will!

jonmorris0844 said:

They can't PF for an excess, so hopefully it will be fine.

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I understand that this has recently been changed and "local instructions" may allow staff to apply penalty fares where a ticket is being used off route or at an invalid time. However, this is only applicable if full selling facilities were available at the starting station, so it won't catch you out.

island said:

I understand that this has recently been changed and "local instructions" may allow staff to apply penalty fares where a ticket is being used off route or at an invalid time. However, this is only applicable if full selling facilities were available at the starting station, so it won't catch you out.

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For using a time-restricted ticket out of hours, the national rail conditions of carriage (NRCoC) say that a Penalty Fare (PF) is only appropriate for

NRCoC said:

"some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications)"

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Otherwise an excess to the lowest priced ticket available for immediate use on that train is payable. Has anyone seen any "notices or publications" restricting carnet tickets? There's nothing in the Manual.

I believe that under no circumstances can a PF be charged for being off-route. My understanding is that your ticket is bound by the NRCoC not by some arbitary "local instruction".

I got an earlier train in the end as I woke up earlier than intended. There was no staff, besides a dispatcher, at Finsbury Park so I couldn't even ask to excess the ticket there either.

I feel obliged to ask at Hatfield when I come back but also think sod it, considering I tried and failed yesterday.

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dvboy said:

Tickets are printed on rubbish coated card, which is useless for being written on or stamped. Why hasn't this been sorted out?

I had a similar problem with a 3 in 7 Rover I bought recently.

Unless you use a Sharpie or similar, you are either not going to be able to write on them, or they are going to smudge.

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I often use date box rovers and get on absoultely fine with a biro so it's not the stock that's the problem.

I find that if the pen is a little too hard, it scratches off the orange coating with ease - and looks instantly like you've tampered with it.

I'd say that given some pens will either scratch them, or won't allow the ink to flow (too shiny) the paper stock is a problem - but a manageable one.

Why not buy a peak Carnet ticket batch and save all this hassel????

Simon11 said:

Why not buy a peak Carnet ticket batch and save all this hassel????

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Why should he do that if he rarely needs to travel when only the peak versions are available?

Simon11 said:

Why not buy a peak Carnet ticket batch and save all this hassel????

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10 peak tickets cost a lot more, but are still only valid for 90 days.

At the very most, I'd use one peak ticket a day - but I rarely go in before 0930 as I can choose when I need to go into London for meetings and will therefore seek to go off-peak, not just to save money but to stop having to get up so early!

So, peak tickets would likely expire. It's far easier (or should be) to just pay the £1.60 extra as and when required.

As it stands, I still have two carnet tickets left that will expire at the end of March. If they do, I've not saved anything at all (you only get one ticket free!).

FCC has now changed its carnet tickets, so you now get 5 return tickets and not 10 singles. Shame they haven't updated their literature!



Now, for most of the time it doesn't matter as I'll go into London and come back (and the tickets are valid for up to three months, so it's a very open ticket!) but sometimes I may go into London and then come back a different way, or get a lift, which means I have to make sure that I now have five equal journeys in or out.

I spoke to a RPI later who explained to me a fraud, which might explain why they've done this. It also explains why they wouldn't do an excess for me before. I will not write what this fraud is on here though, even if it's no longer possible.

You are lucky they are valid so long, the Scotrail ones are only valid for 30 days!

I don't see what stops you using the return portion on a different day, but I can see you problem with unequal journeys.

Carnets are too easy to defraud, if one station has no barriers, I am sure Finsbury Park had much abuse pre-barriers. I am surprised in Scotrail land where we have the trail of the smart cards they haven't issued the flexi-passes on them. At least they could have a tap-in / tap-out system with the stick of if the gaurd catches you without tapping in you lose the ticket, now people see the gaurd coming (in Scotland) then fill out the ticket.

Another effect of this change is that you will no longer be able to use a peak carnet into London in the morning and an off-peak in the afternoon to come home, which was expressly permitted under the T&Cs on FCC's website to stations not subject to evening-peak restrictions, although not technically permitted under the restriction code (CP).

Unfortunately the applicable restriction code (still CP) has not been updated for the return carnets, and applies evening peak restrictions to both the outward and return legs...

NOT valid on any services
which are scheduled to depart
London Kings Cross, London St
Pancras Intl, Moorgate or pass
through London St Pancras Intl
between 16.30 and 1901 (inc),
regardless of where you join
or leave the service.

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...even to stations where such restrictions do not apply under the terms on FCC's website.

This is either going to go unenforced (as before), or is going to catch a lot of people out who are used to being able to use an off-peak return during the evening peak.

Incidentally, does the fact that the single carnets are still in NFM12 (COP off-peak and CNP peak) mean that if you asked for them at the ticket office they would/could sell them to you?

Also, the "new" return sets (CQP off-peak and CPP peak) were in NFM11 as well; a ticket clerk at Kings Cross mistakenly almost sold me a set of the CQPs several months ago.

What?

That's outrageous and effectively makes the new tickets worthless to me as I am regularly using them to go in around midday and back in the evening peak. I travelled home today on the 1632 Cambridge train, so that means with the new ticket I've just bought but not yet used, it would be rejected?

Hatfield is not a station that has the evening peak restriction, but if they've now introduced that for carnet tickets then it's a total disgrace and also incredibly misleading.

They sell them as tickets bought in advance that give you 10 trips for the price of 9. Hence, you save because you bulk buy. If the tickets you buy are no longer valid when a normal ticket is (bearing in mind you're only saving 10%) then you're now forced to pay an excess of £1.60 in my case - which means the tickets are more expensive.

They better update their site to make it clear that these tickets are not comparable to ANY other tickets they sell in my case (as Hatfield has NO evening peak) and so there's no saving at all. It's simply a more convenient way to travel. If they claim otherwise, I think the ASA should be informed very quickly.