sailrail anytime return

could someone please advise me what restrictions apply to a sailrail anytime return from plymouth to belfast costing £104.00. for instance am i able to break my journey at carlisle and then go via dumfries to the ferryport rather than via glasgow and ayr. thanks for any help

This fare seems a little confused.

It is not priced like an Anytime fare, and it is restricted

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_1X.pdf

specifically no BOJ.

This however is contradicted here:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/anytime_conditions.html

I would suggest it is certainly valid on permitted routes between Plymouth and Ayr (Kilmarnock), for journeys without BoJ. For anything other than that, I'm afraid all bets are off.

thanks for the reply but how would i as a run of the mill passenger discover these "restrictions"? Using the Arriva Trains Wales Sailrail booking engine for a trip from Plymouth to Belfast leaving at 725am on 8th March and returning at 630am on the 12th it offers me the £104.00 anytime return. If i click on the ticket name, which is what i usually do to find any restrictions, the first condition is "You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel". with the only restriction stated being "This ticket is only valid for routes passing through Cairnryan and using Stenaline".

If i am missing something obvious please let me know as this fare does semm too good to be true.

Done SailRail many times....You can break your journey at Carlisle either way. It's on the route to Belfast via Cairnryan so there wouldn't be any questions asked. I've done a few moves with Sailrail before...A lot of guards see Belfast or Dublin and instantly just nod and walk on....

severnplace said:

thanks for the reply but how would i as a run of the mill passenger discover these "restrictions"?

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You wouldn't.

The ticket is an Anytime Return.

The National Rail Enquires site lists ticket types and gives full terms for Anytime tickets.

There is no need to look at any further restrictions.

severnplace said:

Using the Arriva Trains Wales Sailrail booking engine for a trip from Plymouth to Belfast leaving at 725am on 8th March and returning at 630am on the 12th it offers me the £104.00 anytime return. If i click on the ticket name, which is what i usually do to find any restrictions, the first condition is "You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel". with the only restriction stated being "This ticket is only valid for routes passing through Cairnryan and using Stenaline".

If i am missing something obvious please let me know as this fare does semm too good to be true.

Click to expand...

Sailrail tickets are good value for money. They have to be, or everyone would just fly these days.

thanks for all your help. guess we off to belfast next weekend.

soil said:

I would suggest it is certainly valid on permitted routes between Plymouth and Ayr (Kilmarnock), for journeys without BoJ. For anything other than that, I'm afraid all bets are off.

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The ticket type is Anytime Day Single or Anytime Return (as appropriate), which CAN NOT have BoJ restrictions applied, no matter what Scotrail may claim.

barrykas said:

The ticket type is Anytime Day Single or Anytime Return (as appropriate), which CAN NOT have BoJ restrictions applied, no matter what Scotrail may claim.

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Scotrail say BOJ is allowed on their website under 'other information':

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/rail-sail-belfast

Although it does erroneously say only 16-24 and Senior railcard discounts apply.

Agree with what the guys say, I have used many times without problems. I do prefer to go via Glasgow central as there are better trains and more connections. I have broken my journey in Glasgow for serveral hours a lovely City. Dunfries is fine if that is what you prefer. You should have a ferry reservation which seems to book you a place on the Ayr to Cairyan coach. You do not need train reservations so you can vary your route or times. Have a great trip.

severnplace said:

could someone please advise me what restrictions apply to a sailrail anytime return from plymouth to belfast costing £104.00. for instance am i able to break my journey at carlisle and then go via dumfries to the ferryport rather than via glasgow and ayr. thanks for any help

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By "break my journey", do you mean alight the express train you are on at Carlisle and join a Glasgow-bound train that goes via Dumfries?

If you do not leave the station at Carlisle, then you haven't broken your journey, anyway.

As others have pointed out, it is doubtful whether any BoJ restriction can apply in this case, anyway, and at a station like Carlisle it is unlikely it would be enforced.

Is Plymouth to Belfast valid via London, someone would need to check the routing guide. If so you could use the Scotrail sleeper from London Euston to Glagow for a small supplement. This makes the long journey very civilized, a drink & some light food in the lounge car as the sleeper pulls out of Euston is a pleasant experience. If you want do do this phone Scotrail sleeper reservations and they will book all tickets, it is easier than trying to book it on the Internet.

yorkie said:

The ticket is an Anytime Return.

Sailrail tickets are good value for money. They have to be, or everyone would just fly these days.

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My Sailrail tickets from Rhyl to Douglas IOM are marked "Economy Return" but as you say the clerk said I could use any train to get to Heysham [not that I'm spoiled for choice on the Lancaster-Heysham leg!].

You're right about their being good value for money. If I'd booked train and boat separately, the price for two of us [both with Senior Railcards], would have been £156.70p. I paid just £101 with Sailrail.

Very interesting that the Sail Rail ticket via Holyhead or Fishguard does not allow a break of journey.

SAILRAIL SINGLE
TICKET TYPE

SAILRAIL STANDBY
DESCRIPTION

A walk up ticket available for travel on the day of purchase, subject to availability.
VALIDITY

Your journey must be on the date, or in the case of overnight sailings, the day after the date, specified on the ticket.
BOOKING

Mandatory reservation on the ship but not required for rail travel.
REFUNDS

Refunds are available, subject to a GBP10.00 administration fee on unused tickets surrendered up to 28 days after expiry of the ticket. Tickets purchased in Ireland will not be refunded.
AMENDING YOUR BOOKING

Travel plans can be changed before the outward journey subject to a GBP10.00 administration fee.
DISCOUNTS

Child discounts apply. No Railcard or Group discounts.
BREAK OF JOURNEY

Not permitted unless for connectional purposes.
AVAILABILITY

Rail & Sail Anytime tickets are available for Standard Class travel only. Upgrades to First Class are not available. Weekend First supplements are not valid with Rail & Sail Anytime tickets.
ROUTE

Only tickets routed HLYHEAD SWIFT will be valid on Irish Ferries Dublin Swift sailings.
Route

This ticket is only valid via Holyhead and Swift.

Click to expand...

paulypaul said:

Very interesting that the Sail Rail ticket via Holyhead or Fishguard does not allow a break of journey.

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I'm not surprised - a single London - Dublin via Holyhead is 43.00, valid on any train, while a SOS London - Chester is 125.50.

So does a "break of journey allowed" rule in the Anytime Return rules trump the 1X "no break of journey allowed" restriction? How can 1X be allowed to be set for a ticket type where 1X isn't allowed.....?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

RochdalePioneers said:

So does a "break of journey allowed" rule in the Anytime Return rules trump the 1X "no break of journey allowed" restriction?

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Depends on who you consult.

soil said:

I would suggest it is certainly valid on permitted routes between Plymouth and Ayr (Kilmarnock), for journeys without BoJ. For anything other than that, I'm afraid all bets are off.

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What are these?

Do any of them pass through Edinburgh with the exception of direct XC trains to Glasgow Central?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

paulypaul said:

Very interesting that the Sail Rail ticket via Holyhead or Fishguard does not allow a break of journey.

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Correct but it's a specific ticket type - Sailrail Standby or Sailral Advance - whereas the Belfast ticket is sold as an Anytime ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Incidently when NRES suggests the STENA CAIRNRYAN ticket it specifically says:

Break of Journey
Break of journey is allowed.

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When you click on the ticket type. It seems almost impossible that a restriction on BoJ could be enforced when there is so much contradictory passenger advice published on official websites. For Routing Purposes then I presume we use Ayr?

ideally what we would like to do is catch the 0725 from plymouth on friday change to the glasgow service at birmingham and get off at carlisle at 1404. then catching the 1512 to dumfries, meeting up with friends there and then getting the national express service(obviously having to pay the fare) to cairnryan in time for the 1930 stena sailing. is it likely i would be able to do this with the anytime ticket?

otherwise we will just go via glasgow and ayr and meet up at cairnryan.

Goatboy said:

What are these?

Do any of them pass through Edinburgh with the exception of direct XC trains to Glasgow Central?

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http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/rail-sail-belfast

The ticket is valid between Plymouth and Ayr by rail.

Ayr is not a routeing point, but Plymouth is.

The applicable routeing points for Ayr are Kilmarnock and Paisley Gilmour Street.

The available walk-up single fares for Plymouth - Ayr are:

SOS +Any Permitted £234
SOS +Via Dumfries £234
SVS +Any Permitted £219.40
SVS +Via Dumfries £211.30
SOS Via Birmingham £206
SOS Not Via London £206
SVS Via Birmingham £201.30
SVS Not Via London £201.30

The fares for Plymouth - Kilmarnock are identical.

The fares for Plymouth - Paisley Gilmour Street are few:

SOS Via Bristol £212
SVS Via Bristol £205.20

Kilmarnock is therefore a permitted routeing point.
Paisley Gilmour Street is probably a permitted routeing point, but you must travel via Bristol.

This turns out to be significant, because if you are travelling from Edinburgh, then you will probably want to catch the Stranraer train from Glasgow, which passes through Paisley Gilmour Street, but not Kilmarnock.

So:

if you want to travel via Gilmour Street, you must travel via Bristol.

The maps for Plymouth - Paisley Gilmour Street do not include LONDON. They are:

BD+ZZ+FD
CE+BS+ZZ+FD
BD+CG
CE+BS
SW+CE+BS
SW+MW+CG
WE+MW+CG
WR+MW+CG
SW+MW+BS
WE+MW+BS
WR+MW+BS
SW+CE+BS+ZZ+FD
CE+NE+EG
SW+CE+NE+EG

I think you could reasonably argue that the route Plymouth - Paddington via Bristol, then Euston - Carlisle, Carlisle - Edinburgh, Edinburgh - Glasgow, Glasgow - Ayr is permitted on maps BD + ZZ + FD, but this could be argued against.

Also valid via Bristol:

Plymouth - Bristol - Newport - Crewe - Carlisle, then again via Edinburgh and Glasgow, or Carlisle - Glasgow (via Carstairs or Kilmarnock) - Ayr

Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham - Carlisle (via Manchester or Warrington, Stoke or Crewe) - and then as before is also permitted

Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham - York - Edinburgh - Glasgow - Ayr

Plymouth - Bristol - Didcot - Birmingham - Carlisle (multiple routes as before).
Easements permit doubling back between Didcot and Reading, typically.

If you want to use LONDON routes, then you must go with Kilmarnock as a routeing point, since Plymouth - Kilmarnock has LONDON as a route.

In this case you have the option of Plymouth - Exeter - Waterloo, or Plymouth - Paddington, or various variations along this for the London leg.

From London, you can do the following:

Marylebone - Birmingham
or Euston -Birmingham
Birmingham - Carlisle via Manchester or Warrington, Stoke/Crewe, as before
or Euston - Carlisle not via Birmingham
or
St Pancras - Leeds - Carlisle

Then from Carlisle, either

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=1

Carlisle - Kilmarnock - Ayr

or Carlisle - Glasgow (on the main line, not via Kilmarnock) - Kilmarnock - Ayr

or
Carlisle - Edinburgh - Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr

The map is a little confusing, but Edinburgh - Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr does not double back, so is permitted.

Or you can do:

London - Edinburgh via the Midlands or East Coast line.

and then again Edinburgh - Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr
or even
Edinburgh - Carlisle - Kilmarnock - Ayr

You can also the 'via Bristol' routes above, but instead of travelling Glasgow - Ayr, you would travel Carlisle - Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr, Carlisle - Edinburgh - Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr, or Carlisle - Kilmarnock - Ayr, as you felt fit, and you would be able to avoid Bristol on the Plymouth - Reading - Birmingham - Carlisle route.

soil's calculation above assumes that Permitted Routes for journeys to Northern Ireland via Ayr and Cairnryan are calculated using the Routeing Points in the National Routeing Guide. This usually gives accurate results, but in the case of travel via London The Manual uses different words.

The Manual -> Shipping Links -> Northern Ireland - Belfast via Ayr and Cairnryan

Journeys via London

When reasonable, the price for a cross London journey is included in a through ticket.

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The National Fares Manual gives inconsistent results on this subject. It does not display the '✠' marker for Plymouth - Belfast NI route CAIRNRYAN STENA. But I do not think we can conclude from that whether Plymouth - Belfast NI via London and Cairnryan is a reasonable route.

Those are both very comprehensive answers - thank you.

Presumably then travelling on the Penzance to Glasgow Central XC services via the ECML to Glasgow is valid on these tickets? Trainscanbecheaper doesn't like routes via Glasgow and York it would seem.

Goatboy said:

Those are both very comprehensive answers - thank you.

Presumably then travelling on the Penzance to Glasgow Central XC services via the ECML to Glasgow is valid on these tickets? Trainscanbecheaper doesn't like routes via Glasgow and York it would seem.

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You mean on the direct services between Penzance and Glasgow Central? The answer is yes.

I do, yes. Infact if I've learnt how to read the RG properly from you guys over the last few months, I'd suggest it's also valid on in-direct XC services too and to change at York onto East Coast? My rationale for this is:

Ayr has Paisley Glimour Street as a Routing Point, Plymouth is a Routing Point, and SW+CE+NE+EGtherefore permits Plymouth to Ayr via York and Edinburgh?

So for a bargain price not only do you get a few days to check out Northern Ireland, but you can also sample the ECML and Edinburgh on the way up?

Goatboy said:

I do, yes. Infact if I've learnt how to read the RG properly from you guys over the last few months, I'd suggest it's also valid on in-direct XC services too and to change at York onto East Coast? My rationale for this is:

Ayr has Paisley Glimour Street as a Routing Point, Plymouth is a Routing Point, and SW+CE+NE+EGtherefore permits Plymouth to Ayr via York and Edinburgh?

Click to expand...

Yes, as I suggested above:

Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham - York - Edinburgh - Glasgow - Ayr

Click to expand...

So for a bargain price not only do you get a few days to check out Northern Ireland, but you can also sample the ECML and Edinburgh on the way up?

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Well with some caveats, First Scot Rail for instance say 'Outward rail travel is valid on the date shown on the ticket only.' and there is the potential BoJ issue.

Quite - but the BoJ seems particularly unenforceable given that both the ticket type generally and the Scotrail website permit BoJ. Infact as a customer at what point do you come into contact with the restriction which bars BoJ?

Presumably the 'Outward rail travel on date of ticket only' must still have to comply with overnight stops, given in very few circumstances is it possible to actually get there, reasonably, in one day anyway (Unless you fancy camping overnight in Ayr after arriving at a ridiculous hour ).

bb21 said:

Depends on who you consult.

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The return ticket I find is best: it is clearly printed as a any time return with the standard restrictions: travel out within 5 days of date of outward portion & 1 month of return date.

I note the national rail web site and all self serve ticket machines that sell the Cairnryan rail sail, show the standard anytime conditions including allowing break of journey.

The single purchased in England, Scotland & Wales is an "any time day single" not as flexible.

Remember a stop overnight does not count as a break of journey where appropriate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Soil does this easement make any difference to the routes.:30217 Customers travelling from Belfast to Galsgow Central and beyond may travel via Paisley Gimour Street. This easement applies in both directions.

Traditionally from Belfast you could route via Ayr, Kilmarnock, Glasgow (via Dumfries or direct Carlisle, & Edinburgh. I have never had a problem taking any of these routes heading to or from England.

You can go via Gilmour street anyway, if travelling via Bristol. The issue is when travelling via London (or westbury/didcot) which might be prohibited anyway, depending on the theoretical and practical applicability of The Manual vs. The Routeing Guide

I thought I'd keep this query in here as I don't want to create another thread on fundamentally the same ticket.

This time, Great Malvern to Belfast using the Route Cairnryan Stena Anytime Return

My understanding is that Worcester Group is the routing point for Great Malvern, and Paisly Gilmour Street is the routing point for Ayr.

Map CE+NE+EG permits travel from Worcester to Ayr via York and Edinburgh using the following itinerary:

GMV to Birmingham New Street (London Midland)
Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh (XC) (Annoyingly it seems XC doesn’t go as far as Glasgow on a Saturday, hence a change required where it wouldn't be midweek).
Edinburgh to Glasgow (SR)
Glasgow to Ayr (SR)
Ayr to Cairnryan (Bus)
Cairnryan to Belfast (Stena)

However the Scotrail website claims the ticket is not valid for this itinerary. The only valid routes it offers are via Kilmarnok. It happily offers routes via XC for the Plymouth example earlier in the thread, though.

Is the website wrong, or is my interpretation of the Routing Guide wrong? If I wish to make this journey via the route shown above, is that ticket valid or would I need to split it at Worcester (Perhaps it fails the fare check from GMV?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Scotrail website produces some odd results for this journey thats for sure. Just tried Worcester to Belfast - it sends you to Birkinhead, then over to Belfast from there, then back to Cairnryan via Stena, then back to Belfast again. Total journey time 19 hours with 3 Irish Sea crossings!?!

Goatboy said:

I thought I'd keep this query in here as I don't want to create another thread on fundamentally the same ticket.

This time, Great Malvern to Belfast using the Route Cairnryan Stena Anytime Return

My understanding is that Worcester Group is the routing point for Great Malvern, and Paisly Gilmour Street is the routing point for Ayr.

Click to expand...

Both are appropriate routeing points if Ayr is used for routeing purposes as the destination and the ferry is seen as an add-on which I think is a reasonable assumption.

Goatboy said:

Map CE+NE+EG

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Correct.

Goatboy said:

permits travel from Worcester to Ayr via York and Edinburgh using the following itinerary:

GMV to Birmingham New Street (London Midland)
Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh (XC) (Annoyingly it seems XC doesn’t go as far as Glasgow on a Saturday, hence a change required where it wouldn't be midweek).
Edinburgh to Glasgow (SR)
Glasgow to Ayr (SR)
Ayr to Cairnryan (Bus)
Cairnryan to Belfast (Stena)

Click to expand...

Correct.

Goatboy said:

However the Scotrail website claims the ticket is not valid for this itinerary. The only valid routes it offers are via Kilmarnok. It happily offers routes via XC for the Plymouth example earlier in the thread, though.

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I suspect that the website be interpreting valid routes in another manner. Belfast has no associated routeing points, hence only direct trains (none) and the shortest route (and those no more than 3 miles longer) are permitted. (I think via Kilmarnock might be the shortest route?)

Goatboy said:

Is the website wrong, or is my interpretation of the Routing Guide wrong? If I wish to make this journey via the route shown above, is that ticket valid or would I need to split it at Worcester (Perhaps it fails the fare check from GMV?)

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Worcester Group definitely does not fail fares check. You don't need to split AFAIK.

Goatboy said:

The Scotrail website produces some odd results for this journey thats for sure. Just tried Worcester to Belfast - it sends you to Birkinhead, then over to Belfast from there, then back to Cairnryan via Stena, then back to Belfast again. Total journey time 19 hours with 3 Irish Sea crossings!?!

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Maybe that is the shortest route? (Then how are Eire mileages computed? I think this would be a very naughty interpretation though.)

Trainscanbecheaper doesn't like this journey either - even if you use Ayr as the destination.

Is it sad that i find the routing guide fascinating?