they really would be ideal, but obviously would be a waste of the OH equipment. The 313s could then go onto metro routes.
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Class 387
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they really would be ideal, but obviously would be a waste of the OH equipment. The 313s could then go onto metro routes.
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Bishopstone
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I agree. Send the 313s to London, buy some popcorn, sit back and enjoy the firestorm as London folk foam with rage about their 'new' 1970s trains.
westcoaster
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Heard on the grapevine LM staff visited Cauldwell depot today to look over a 319.
Metobusfan
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DasLunatic
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That would be true - LM's Dustys are going to Scotland and they'll be replaced by 319s AFAIK
Class377/5
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On the draft workings there will be two return trips a day to Brighton using 319s. Both in the evening. Sure there is a few The Bridges trains too. There was never enough 387s ordered to completely take over the route.
From FGW Franchise document, 387 transfer dates from TSGN to FGW
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...426295/FGW_Interim_Franchise_Agreement_02.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...426295/FGW_Interim_Franchise_Agreement_02.pdf
Will the 387s be fitted with improved first class ie proper first class seats to standardise the product given the 365s retain a proper first class?
Will great Western be keen to change the interior colour scheme and astroturf seating? I imagine they will go into service as they are now given getting them into service is the most important thing
swt_passenger
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Highly unlikely, I'd have thought. Dedicated (i.e. different) first class seating on recent trains for London commuter services is a thing of the past - (except on 444s).
Is it at all likely that GW will be different?
In any case, the direct award franchise agreement states the seating capacity as 224 (213 standard and 11 first) which is not to be altered without DfT agreement. The current seat total was assumed to be 226 wasn't it - and presumably 11 seats can be arranged as one or other of the end bays?
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Class377/5
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Currently I believe it's 10 seats behind the driver are classed as First Class in the 'First Class' compartment.
tsr
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Indeed so!
swt_passenger
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Just checked the seating plans you posted on your blog a while back, yes they do show 10 seats at one end, (with a luggage stack?) and 12 at the other. Perhaps they have shown the average?
Looks like the partition door in the middle of the DMOS(A) might be redundant - that's if it is still there.
Whatever happens, I don't see the sort of changes that ml seems to be hoping for in his earlier post...
Class377/5
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Just checked the seating plans you posted on your blog a while back, yes they do show 10 seats at one end, (with a luggage stack?) and 12 at the other. Perhaps they have shown the average?
Looks like the partition door in the middle of the DMOS(A) might be redundant - that's if it is still there.
Whatever happens, I don't see the sort of changes that ml seems to be hoping for in his earlier post...
First Clad was only on the A end worn the B end just standard. The partition doors are indeed still on the units tho not that well placed for their use.
gtr driver
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Well I seem to spend much of my days driving trains around Southern's metro network that date from the early 80s, without toilets, and the last of a 50s/60s fleet only disappeared a couple of years before I joined, so it would be a bit of a non story.
D365
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Not to mention that the 313s (and 315s) are London units... we have plenty 'vintage' fleets across the network.
London Underground have 42 year old trains (72ts which entered service 1973-1974) that under current plans won't be replaced for the next 8-10 years, and are looking like they'll reach half a century in service. The 73ts (entered service 1975-1977) have their 40th birthday this year, and again under current plans they'll be close to 50 when they're replaced.
The 313s entered service 1976-1977, which makes them the same age as 73ts, but the 315s only entered service 1980-1981 so are about half a decade younger.
Yet no one moans about the older LUL stock,which also have no clear plans of replacement, unlike the 313 and 315 that shouldn't be in London service beyond 2019
:roll:London Underground have 42 year old trains (72ts which entered service 1973-1974) that under current plans won't be replaced for the next 8-10 years, and are looking like they'll reach half a century in service. The 73ts (entered service 1975-1977) have their 40th birthday this year, and again under current plans they'll be close to 50 when they're replaced.
The 313s entered service 1976-1977, which makes them the same age as 73ts, but the 315s only entered service 1980-1981 so are about half a decade younger.
Yet no one moans about the older LUL stock,which also have no clear plans of replacement, unlike the 313 and 315 that shouldn't be in London service beyond 2019
The generally considered the economic lifespan of electric units seems to be around 40 years yes ok some may last longer and some not as long depending on a number of factors and the overall business case, in the case of London Underground it now seems to be being determined by moving towards a single standard fleet of trains for the surface lines, and another for the tube lines.
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Class377/5
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Sorry but that's just crap that stock replacement is being determined by desire for a single fleet.
The S stock replaced the A stock (60/62), C stock (69-77) and D stock (78-83), all are at a point of reaching end of thier lives when replaced.
The move now to replace the Tube lines with a single design is again born of the life expired rolling stock and other else.
Don't forget metro stock generally has a shorter life span than that of mainline rolling stock yet LUL is faced with making its stock on the Tube lines last far longer than anyone expected. Bakerloo's 72 stock may see some of it reach near 60 years in service as the NTfL had been pushed back again to allow the SSL resignalling to be completed.
The D stock certainly aren't end of life yet, hence the whole vivarail thing. Indeed, had they not gone for S stock replacing D stock, it would have got a more thorough overhaul in the mid-late 2000s and would probably be good for at least another decade, but the decision was made to give them a comparatively minor refurbishment and then retire the D stock early, replacing it with S stock at a point when everything else was starting to be replaced with S stock and have a single fleet on the SSL, with the added benefit of interoperability, and reduced maintenance cost long term.
Whilst there isn't as large a drive for 'singlification' on the deep level lines, we are seeing the 72TS going through life extension programs to allow them to run as long as the 73TS, despite their earlier overhaul. Additionally the New Tube for London is replacing the 92TS, although arguably they are life-expired!
DasLunatic
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The 92 stock has at least another ten years of service in London, easy. The first NTfLs aren't due for at least another four years, plus TfL will replace the 72s and 73s first.
Besides, Stagecoach expressed in interest in bringing over 92s for the Isle of Wight, so they'll have another thirty years of service.
We won't be seeing the end of 92s for a while yet!
Besides, Stagecoach expressed in interest in bringing over 92s for the Isle of Wight, so they'll have another thirty years of service.
We won't be seeing the end of 92s for a while yet!
D365
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Quoted for the benefit of those who perceive 'London' to be procuring unnecessary new trains...
TfL has judged it to be reasonable to tender for additional 'Alstom clone' rolling stock to enhance the Northern and Jubilee line fleets. However the problem with moving to a standard fleet overall is that the deep tube lines have enough differences to affect the requirements for the specification for each fleet, e.g. Bakerloo has tight curves through central London, Victoria's 09 Stock which was built to take advantage of a more generous loading gauge.
As it stands, the mechanical overhaul which will be required to optimise the maintenance regime in the medium-term (to address known mechanical shortcomings) makes it more economical to exercise a fleet replacement in line with the programme for the Piccadilly and Bakerloo fleets.
There was a brief mention of interest in the 1973 Stock, however can you provide a source for the interest in 92 Stock? Bearing in mind the unfamiliarity it will bring to the line and the issue which I stated above.
Class377/5
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The D stock are seen as life expired by TfL who were happy to scrap them. The transformation into Vivarail units is requiring heavily re-engineering with only the bodyshell remaining and everything else replaced. Certainly not the same as refurbishing the units.
The plan was replace the 92ts between 2028-2032 but worth the SSL resignalling now going back from 2018 to 2021/22 and TfL announcement the NTfL will start after that is gone even further back now. Hell the Bakerloo may not see new trains until the 2030s and is ahead of the Central Line.
However this is rather off the core topic of the 387s.
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Don't think so, I believe that as part of the Metronet PPP contract they were required to refurbish the D Stock in 2007ish so it would last until 2015 when they were envisaged to be replaced by the then-recently ordered (or to be ordered, rather) S Stock, and so the refurbishment was mainly cosmetic, though I am sure that if needed TFL could have ordered a larger scale refurbishment. It seems that, though one year out, the D Stock refurb may have been one of the very few things that Metronet did right, as here we are in 2015 with the D Stock being sold off to Vivarail. This thread is veering off discussion of the 387 though...
westcoaster
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387 12car running is autherised from today.
Minstral25
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Good news - will this mean additional trains will be 12 coach or that sometimes the existing trains will be 3x 387 and at other times 3x 377?
If the former what are the new diagrams - if anyone knows?
Cheers
Class377/5
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Trains that were 12 car 377 will now be 12 car 387s. Remember there isn't any extra units to make longer trains yet until the 700s arrive.
Minstral25
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Yes thought that was the case hence surprise at seeing that 387s to run in 12 car formation, as presumably the 377s will thus have to be changed into 8 car units. Or are the 377s leaving soon?
Why not leave the 377s in 12 car or is it to do with timing of them leaving next year. 12 car 700s then taking over from 12 car 387s and 387s go to GW?
Class377/5
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The 387s are off before the 377s. There are various reasons why there had been the move around. The planned use of 377s on none BML services (currently not happening) is one such reason.
ClevedonYellow
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My understanding was as the 12 car Class 700's are introduced the start of the Class 387's to GW begins (Unless it isn't energised yet). As the Class 700's begin to take over TL services the 377's will cascade to the Kings Cross - Kings Lynn line. Releasing the 365's to Cascade to GW. Slowly the Class 700's will take over the whole of TL/GN (Except Kings Lynn) Not sure about the Hartford North line?
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