£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if some people will look for the longest route, buy 2 X £2 singles (£4 return) as this maybe cheaper than heating the house for 5-6 hours in the middle of winter…?

Sitting in the public library and reading a book is free. Though you might need 2 x £2 singles to get to it of course.

 

[Dai Corner]

Sitting in the public library and reading a book is free.

As is riding around on buses with a concessionary pass. I'm one of the eccentric characters who do that for fun, not because I can't afford to heat the house.

 

[Llandudno]

Sitting in the public library and reading a book is free. Though you might need 2 x £2 singles to get to it of course.

Are there many public libraries left that you don’t have to catch a longish bus ride to get to…?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there many public libraries left that you don’t have to catch a longish bus ride to get to…?

Depends where you live in relation to one! But for most people £4 for a bus ride and a book to read/place to read it will be preferable to £4 for just a bus ride.

 

[padbus]

I wonder if some people will look for the longest route, buy 2 X £2 singles (£4 return) as this maybe cheaper than heating the house for 5-6 hours in the middle of winter…?

Not if buses continue to run with all the windows open for Covid reasons.

 

[Deerfold]

Those two are really coach tours, though, but ones that operate on a walk up basis and claim BSOG because "why wouldn't you"?

No, they're part of the Sunday Dalesbus network. I doubt they expect many to catch them end-to-end. Although these two only operate once a week each, they have common sections of route with other routes and they are timed to connect at various points.

I'm sure I read that the £2 thing is to an extent optional, so such services could opt out. Such specifically tourist-oriented services often don't accept free passes either (and don't have to) - do these ones?

These don't accept ENTCS passes on most of their route, at the insistence of North Yorkshire County Council (NYCC) - the sponsor of the routes wanted to accept them. They sell tickets at up to £3 single/ £5 day for pass holders.

Whether they'd want to opt out presumably depends on what the reimbursement rates are like.

The full stopping 555 from Lancaster is just short of three hours, anyone know any longer ones that are actually regular bus services operating multiple times a day? Doubt many people bar passholders use its full length though, and many of them probably stop off along the way.

The 840 Leeds - Whitby is 3h25 - 3h40 3-4 times a day (with short extras only going 2h30 making most of the route hourly).
The 843 Leeds - Scarborough is just over 3 hours on most journeys. This is hourly and shares the first 2 hours from Leeds with the 840. Last year they tried it as a half hourly service during the summer.

Yorkshire Coastline threatened to make these routes limited stop to stop ENTCS passes being valid in protest at the low rate of reimbursement by NYCC a few years ago.

 

[E-Rail]

Yorkshire Coastline threatened to make these routes limited stop to stop ENTCS passes being valid in protest at the low rate of reimbursement by NYCC a few years ago.

Not limited stop but unregistered 'express' services. The 840 would have operated between Leeds and Pickering and the 843 would have run between Leeds and Rillington (just east of Malton). Beyond those points, the routes would have run as expresses to the coast. North Yorkshire County Council (NYCC) would have been left to tender replacement local routes over the (15 mile+) express sections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not limited stop but unregistered 'express' services. The 840 would have operated between Leeds and Pickering and the 843 would have run between Leeds and Rillington (just east of Malton). Beyond those points, the routes would have run as expresses to the coast. NYCC would have been left to tender replacement local routes over the (15 mile+) express sections.

That sounds remarkably like (legal) blackmail, perhaps confident that nobody else would bid the tender - pay us more or you will have to pay us *even more*. Though if it was worth their while foresaking BSOG then the reimbursement must have been really poor.

 

[johncrossley]

That sounds remarkably like (legal) blackmail, perhaps confident that nobody else would bid the tender - pay us more or you will have to pay us *even more*. Though if it was worth their while foresaking BSOG then the reimbursement must have been really poor.

That's basically how it is generally, where there is no franchising. If the council or government wants to do anything, they have to negotiate with the incumbent, who can name their own price and have the ability to say yes or no. The current scenario is even more weighted towards the incumbent operators than full blown deregulation. They get financial protection, but still have full control of the network and fares and cannot be 'sacked'.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That sounds remarkably like (legal) blackmail, perhaps confident that nobody else would bid the tender - pay us more or you will have to pay us *even more*. Though if it was worth their while foresaking BSOG then the reimbursement must have been really poor.

Not at all. The truth is that North Yorkshire CC was extremely parsimonious in its remuneration. Therefore, Yorkshire Coastliner was expected to carry ENCTS passengers who were mainly out for a jolly to the coast, and get a parlous amount in return. Hardly fair and yes, that is why they could forsake BSOG and still be better off.

The number of local passengers was probably very small and, in the case of the 840 to/from Goathland etc, the times don't really cater for local passengers and the main villages towards Whitby (Ruswarp and Sleights) are already served by local services.

That's basically how it is generally, where there is no franchising. If the council or government wants to do anything, they have to negotiate with the incumbent, who can name their own price and have the ability to say yes or no. The current scenario is even more weighted towards the incumbent operators than full blown deregulation. They get financial protection, but still have full control of the network and fares and cannot be 'sacked'.

Do you really think that North Yorkshire County Council would be ploughing money into public transport, and that it's the regulatory framework that is stopping them?

Really?

They run everything on a shoestring but yeah, it's the evil bus barons up to their nefarious tricks as usual

 

[geoffk]

I think we just have to be careful in not inadvertently encouraging people to ride long distances on bargain fares, which is not really what this scheme is about. It could endanger those longer distance services (by creating capacity issues without sufficient revenue to support a solution, encouraging companies to split them into shorter routes and getting passengers to change buses) and take an amount of traffic away from rail on those kinds of trips ( Carlisle-Newcastle for instance, but could be shorter services too). Surely the £2 fare will particularly assist outside of the largest metropolitan areas, where buses don't usually stop and open the doors for less than upwards of £3, often much more (thinking of my home shire county)? The other concern is surely the damage this may well do to the revenue base from 'non-entitled' schoolchildren going to out of area schools, particularly in the more affluent areas, where this £2 fare is going to give (mainly middle class) parents a fares reduction, without generating much in the way of additional traffic. However, if it is only for three months then probably no long term harm done.

There's also the possible risk to revenue on light rail services, of which Andy Burnham seems to be aware. But UK governments have always seen bus, tram and train as totally separate networks existing in their own vacuum. Not a party political point as Gordon Brown also did when he announced free bus travel for over-60s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also the possible risk to revenue on light rail services, of which Andy Burnham seems to be aware. But UK governments have always seen bus, tram and train as totally separate networks existing in their own vacuum. Not a party political point as Gordon Brown also did when he announced free bus travel for over-60s.

To be fair, if they published the timetable (something they've never liked doing) a reduction on Metrolink to 4tph per route would not be disastrous. It's fine on Merseyrail. More trams could run as doubles so no capacity loss but fewer staff would be needed, and the nominal waiting time if you show up randomly is only three minutes longer.

New thread to continue this line of discussion: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/potential-metrolink-cuts.236831/

 

[pemma]

The effect of the TfGM only price cap has been revealed. A Greater Manchester single fare is now lower than the cost of a single from Wilmslow station to Wilmslow Bank Square (£2 vs £2.30). While if you start in Greater Manchester and want to go one stop beyond, the fare more than doubles (£2 vs £4.20).

 

[buscontroller]

Maybe they will just look at like for like income with the running costs being the same with 1 or 50 people on the service. So long as they get the offset in fares or most of it I don't think there will be any issues. Many now offer £1 or £2 fares after 7pm.

Weekly tickets holders pay for unlimited use so they have to account that the income from seasons has to cover all services to run without any other fares.

 

[Llandudno]

I would imagine the vast majority of residents in Wilmslow can easily afford £4.20!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would imagine the vast majority of residents in Wilmslow can easily afford £4.20!

They won't pay it, though, they'll drive their Range Rover or one of the Jags.

 

[pemma]

I would imagine the vast majority of residents in Wilmslow can easily afford £4.20!

The vast majority of people boarding buses in Wilmslow have a bus pass. But don't forget all towns in Cheshire have social housing, even Alderley Edge has some!

Anyway the point isn't to imply Wilmslow residents can't afford the bus, it's to highlight the ridiculous jump in fare. £2 for one stop, but if you stay on the next one it's £4.20 as that's outside the Trafford boundary.

 

[chiltern trev]

We had the family here during the school holidays and took a bus trip 685 Brampton to Carlisle and back. 10 miles each way, 25 minutes each way. Stagecoach fare.

£5.70 adult day return. I think a single is not much cheaper.
So for £2 single it would save £1.70.

A Stagecoach Carlisle Day Rider is £3.70 for unlimited travel in Carlisle.

Next up is a Stagecoach Carlisle Plus Day Rider £7.80 which is unlimited travel in the Carlisle hinterland which includes Penrith (18 miles), Brampton (10 miles), Hexham (33 miles - also 685 route) and Gretna in Scotland.

Next up is North West Explorer £12.00 - Dumfries (Scotland), Newcastle, Chester and Wigan - huge area. Not valid on Stagecoach in Manchester.

Interesting to see what happens for the 79 and 179 Carlisle - Gretna - Anna and Dumfries across the border north bank of the Solway and a similar distance to the 300 Carlisle - Workington south bank of the Solway. A fare cutoff in Gretna?

The 685 is "joint" with Arriva North East so Stagecoach Cumbria tickets are valid on the Arriva 685 buses and vice versa. Note - to the passenger the 685 appears as a proper joint service as the overall timetable is a bus every hour.

Also Stagecoach register the route in 3 parts and Arriva register the route in 2 parts and Mon of the 5 parts are the same.

And the fares charged by Stagecoach and Arriva for singles and returns can be different - a feature of deregulation!

 

[DelayRepay]

There will be people who will take advantage of a day out on very long routes for £2, but will there really be huge numbers of people doing that in January? The £2 bus fares will especially help people wanting to make normal day to day journeys, on routes outside of the large urban areas, where fares can be very high even for a short journey.

I plan to do that, if the £2 fares are available on the longer distance routes from my town. It will be a cheap day out which would otherwise have either been done by car or not at all. Provided there's capacity on the bus, which is likely, what is the harm? The operator receives a fare that they would not otherwise have received, and it takes a car off the road. And there will be a wider economic benefit as I will probably spend money on lunch and in shops while I'm out.

And this might encourage people who don't normally use the bus to give it a try. Some of these people may stick with the bus when the fares go back to normal which would be a positive impact and help to maintain the viability of services.

I wonder if some people will look for the longest route, buy 2 X £2 singles (£4 return) as this maybe cheaper than heating the house for 5-6 hours in the middle of winter…?

Some people might - we do hear of pensioners going out for the day with their free bus passes as a way of keeping warm (which is a disgrace but that's for another topic). On the other hand, if someone cannot afford to heat their house they probably won't want to 'waste' £2 on bus fares. I think most people in that situation would find a local library or somewhere to sit and keep warm rather than riding on buses.

And the fares charged by Stagecoach and Arriva for singles and returns can be different - a feature of deregulation!

It's things like this that put me off using buses when I visit other parts of the UK. Sometimes finding fare information (and how to pay, i.e. contactless, download an app or pay with cash) can require research.

A benefit of a standard £2 flat fare would be people would be confident about how much their journey will cost, which its self could encourage ridership (although would be even better if, like the railways, there was a single national source of accurate timetable and fare data, and a single ticket buying app!)

 

[BayPaul]

I hope this trial is a success, and marks the start of a new period of better consistency and integration on public transport ticketing. It would be great to see more innovations - a standard £5 day rover fare, TfL style free transfer between services, perhaps a £1 fare for plus bus type journeys connecting with a train journey on the same contactless card, maybe a £3 fare option for longer journeys to discourage operators from splitting them etc.

But I'm sure it won't happen!

 

[DelayRepay]

I hope this trial is a success, and marks the start of a new period of better consistency and integration on public transport ticketing. It would be great to see more innovations - a standard £5 day rover fare, TfL style free transfer between services, perhaps a £1 fare for plus bus type journeys connecting with a train journey on the same contactless card, maybe a £3 fare option for longer journeys to discourage operators from splitting them etc.

But I'm sure it won't happen!

All of that sounds wonderful, but....

Before then, could I please have a bus service that gets me home from town after 17:45? I know wanting to be in town is unreasonable, but at the moment the local bus service is so infrequent that even if it was free I wouldn't use it regularly.

 

[pemma]

Before then, could I please have a bus service that gets me home from town after 17:45? I know wanting to be in town is unreasonable, but at the moment the local bus service is so infrequent that even if it was free I wouldn't use it regularly.

My mum holds a pensioner's bus pass. However, as she's able to walk from town and the bus is only around hourly, she doesn't use the bus that often. Even when she can't walk e.g. due to having a week's worth of shopping, she'd find it too much hassle to get the shopping to the bus and then from the bus to her house.

A benefit of a standard £2 flat fare would be people would be confident about how much their journey will cost, which its self could encourage ridership (although would be even better if, like the railways, there was a single national source of accurate timetable and fare data, and a single ticket buying app!)

In Cheshire it's commonplace for a single to be over £4, unless you are making a very short journey (under 2 miles), while day tickets are £5-£6. This makes bus fares very much like il fares whereby singles provide poor value for money and some people may even pay for the day ticket if they aren't certain they'll get the bus back.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just as a very loose observation but buses in my neck of the woods do appear to be somewhat busier now the West Yorkshire caps have kicked in. Of course its way, way too early to tell if this is just a blip or something more permanent, but after a couple of years struggling to get more than a handful of people on many services some seem to suddenly have a lot more punters on.

 

[Class 33]

I thought single bus fares were currently capped at £2? Why then have I just been charged £2.50 on a Stagecoach bus for a journey within Bristol? I was surprised at this, though I didn't bother making a fuss about it in front of a watching audience on the lower deck of the bus. It was only 50p more expensive than I was expecting, which is hardly going to break the bank, and I don't usually use Stegecoach buses in Bristol now anyway.

 

[The exile]

I thought single bus fares were currently capped at £2? Why then have I just been charged £2.50 on a Stagecoach bus for a journey within Bristol? I was surprised at this. Thought didn't bother making a fuss about it in front of a watching audience on the lower desk of the bus. It was only 50p more expensive than I was expecting, which is hardly going to break the bank, and I don't usually use Stegecoach buses in Bristol now anyway.

The national scheme kicks in from January. First Bath & Bristol have introduced the £2 fare already - but others clearly haven’t.

 

[geoffk]

The national scheme kicks in from January. First Bath & Bristol have introduced the £2 fare already - but others clearly haven’t.

What does Stagecoach run in Bristol?

 

[ALEMASTER]

£2 price cap on adult single fares to be implemented within South Yorkshire on buses and trams from 1 November, funded by the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (assuming all operators have agreed to the reimbursement arrangements before then!). No changes to any other ticket types.

Info on the TSY website: https://travelsouthyorkshire.com/en-gb/news/429002ad-175a-4252-b31c-b74afd02f87d

 

[pepperpot80]

The national scheme kicks in from January

Of course, this does depend on the Treasury not withdrawing the national funding for the voluntary scheme in the mini-budget next month.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The £2 price cap has proved quite useful so far within Greater Manchester, as you know in advance where you are with just how much any individual journey is likely to cost you.

 

[johntea]

How does the £2 price cap currently work on 'through' single fares from outside of West Yorkshire into West Yorkshire

For example if I were to catch the 36 bus from Harrogate to Leeds, in theory I should only be paying £2 once the service hits West Yorkshire but are the systems intelligent enough to work this out yet or would the driver have to work out the boundary stop and essentially issue two tickets?