£912 out of court settlement for an expired railcard

[rarepomegranat]

Hi all

On 11th December 2024 an officer scanned my London Clapham Junction to Crewkerne £35.65 ticket and we both realised my railcard had been expired since 13th July 2023

He told me some things that I can barely remember and gave me a piece of paper that he said would be my valid ticket for that journey, oh and he told me I might be prosecuted.

I renewed my railcard there and then, (I had just totally forgotten and it is linked to my trainline account)

Today I recieved a letter saying I owe them £912.00, £658.00 fare avoided and £254.00 admin fees.

I've added up that I have paid £506.80 worth of tickets during the time my railcard had expired so those costs will have been discounted by the expired card.

Is there anything I can do?

I feel like probably not but it seems so unfair for them to ask for the full amount of the ticket rather than just the savings I incorrectly made.

 

[jfollows]

I feel like probably not but it seems so unfair for them to ask for the full amount of the ticket rather than just the savings I incorrectly made.

It’s how they do it, sorry, you’re not alone but that probably doesn’t console you much.
If you don’t dispute the journeys they list as being ones you made without a valid railcard, that’s what it’ll cost for them to agree not to prosecute.

If it helps, you could ask them for a payment plan but we’ve seen mixed success with this.

 

[rarepomegranat]

It’s how they do it, sorry, you’re not alone but that probably doesn’t console you much.
If you don’t dispute the journeys they list as being ones you made without a valid railcard, that’s what it’ll cost for them to agree not to prosecute.

If it helps, you could ask them for a payment plan but we’ve seen mixed success with this.

Thanks
I feel like they should refund me the money I did pay them if I am going to pay them that again plus more. Alas I am powerless.
I think I'll put it on a credit card and spread the payments myself so I don't have to interact with them.

 

[John R]

Thanks
I feel like they should refund me the money I did pay them if I am going to pay them that again plus more. Alas I am powerless.
I think I'll put it on a credit card and spread the payments myself so I don't have to interact with them.

You’re not in a strong position having travelled with invalid tickets for getting on 18 months, so I really wouldn’t advise arguing with them about what is fair. After all, you have committed multiple criminal offences, and if the consequence was simply to pay the balance, along with maybe an admin fee, there would be less incentive for people to renew their railcards.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks
I feel like they should refund me the money I did pay them if I am going to pay them that again plus more. Alas I am powerless.
I think I'll put it on a credit card and spread the payments myself so I don't have to interact with them.

You have my sympathy - but as is currently being debated on another thread - the problem is that they can't easily distinguish from people who have made a genuine oversight not to renew (like you) and people who persistently apply Railcard discounts when they don't have a Railcard / never have had one etc - see several other recent threads for those sorts of evaders - simply doing this as a deliberate way to get a cheaper ticket for all or part of their journey etc. many of them will have made calculation that if caught they can try to 'pay the difference' so nothing has been lost.

Unfortunately the levels of deliberate evasion in the UK also make things more difficult for people who have and are claiming to have made honest mistakes.

What's regrettable is that a ticket check at some earlier stage did not flag this up which would have limited the ongoing damage.

Of course if you were not buying your tickets on line there would never have been such an easy to find record of your historic ticket buying with non valid discount for them to extract and ask you to pay

Its also frustrating that the industry has no centralised way to alert people to expiry dates on Railcards - although I note that I buy my railcard in hard copy at a station ticket office and do actually get an e-mail reminding me when it is due to expire! But clearly you can not rely on that.

 

[Titfield]

I do wonder (and this is for expert forum members to comment on) what would happen if you:

(1) paid the put of court settlement offered
(2) then wrote to them stating something like Please can they explain why the fares already paid were not taken account of in the calculation?

Doing it this way round would protect you from further action being taken against you (ie if you queried it first they could withdraw the offer and proceed to court).

 

[jfollows]

I think it’s the way it is because

1. It’s a settlement, so it’s an amount the railway company is happy with, take it or leave it
2. The original ticket was invalid anyway
3. If they are known to settle for ‘only’ the fare difference then more people might try to deceive the railway company deliberately

It’s painful, but that’s partly the point. The main result desired is for this not to happen again.

 

[furlong]

You could put it to them (with some degree of "niceness") that the amount appears to be substantially higher than that which you believe any court would award and suggest your own calculation of the amount they have lost in line with the way you believe a court would address the matter if there's no agreement and it proceeds that far. (Or ask for their alternative reasoning for you to consider.)

As well as the fares, the "admin fees" appear excessive too. There you could ask for a breakdown of the figure setting out how those costs were incurred dealing with this specific matter.

All along with an emphasis that you're eager to put things right such that the company recovers the full amount it lost as the consequences of your mistake. (i.e. good faith)

 

[swt_passenger]

I do wonder (and this is for expert forum members to comment on) what would happen if you:

(1) paid the put of court settlement offered
(2) then wrote to them stating something like Please can they explain why the fares already paid were not taken account of in the calculation?
[…]

I suggest they would then reply that under the National Rail conditions of travel, if a ticket has been bought without the required valid railcard you are to be treated as having no ticket. Your ticket is not valid at all, rather than partially valid.

This will presumably be why the ’forgotten railcard policy’ says they will sell you a full price new ticket, not just an excess up to the full price.

 

[Gloster]

The railway has the right to take the OP to court for the one offence when they were stopped (and would very likely win), but is offering the alternative of an out of settlement that will avoid the damaging effects of a conviction for the OP (and provide more money for the railway). The OP does not seem to be disputing the number of previous journeys which s/he made, which were - according to the law - made without a valid ticket. The railway is making its offer on a standard basis for cases like this where, it should be remembered, the OP has failed to fulfil one of the requirements of holding a Railcard, i.e. ensure that the Railcard is valid before travelling. Therefore it is reasonable, in my eyes, to maintain the legal position that any ticket purchased for the journey was not a valid one and to base the calculation of their offer on the full rate.

I am not an expert.

 

[Titfield]

I suggest they would then reply that under the National Rail conditions of travel, if a ticket has been bought without the required valid railcard you are to be treated as having no ticket. Your ticket is not valid at all, rather than partially valid.

This will presumably be why the ’forgotten railcard policy’ says they will sell you a full price new ticket, not just an excess up to the full price.

Yes probably but I was hoping that one of those seeking our advice on this forum would ask the question as put so that there was a definitive response from at least one of the Train Operating Companies.

Whilst I accept the views advanced, I would (a) like to see confirmation from a TOC of their position (b) hope that the disproportionality of their policy then be seized upon by one of those campaigning for a fairer system.

 

[soil]

It's pretty simple. In law they'd be entitled to the fare difference, not the full amount.

However, if they prosecute you'd have a criminal conviction, legal costs, an a fine. So the financial outcome would be similar.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Legally speaking, you did not have a valid ticket for your journey because your railcard had expired. However harsh it sounds this is a criminal offence and SWR are eititled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. If this happens you would be found guilty and have to pay a fine based on your income, surcharge, compensation for the fare avoided in the day you were caught and a contribution towards SWR's court costs. In addition you would have the hassle of a conviction.

SWR are offering you an alternative to keep this out of court if you pay them some money. They want you to pay the cost of all of the fares you have purchased since the railcard expired at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the railcard discounted tickets you did buy, in addition to an admin fee. SWR do not offer payment plans (another thread involving SWR mentions that they were refused a payment plan by SWR but for an additional £35 they will refer you to a debt management service!) Paying a fine mught feel like paying a fine but technically it isn't - only a court can impose a fine as a punushment upon conviction. If you pay the settlement then the matter won't go to court and you won't have a criminal record.

We're often asked why people in this situation cannot simply pay the difference in fares and although I have sympathy for this view in reality no-one would buy a railcard. You'd simply pay the difference in fares if checked and challenged.