“Scotlands best ever railway”

[Mingulay]

Apparently there are sensors on the line. Same method used for updating tracking apps etc.

More sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/news/we-are-sorry

The devil is in the detail. Statistics are so readily manipulated. If the time of arrival is anything other than when the train stops at the platform. That is not it’s time of arrival. If your sitting outside Waverley waiting for a platform. You have not arrived. If you were to say to passengers even before the current crisis that only 15% of thier trains are late or canceled they would not believe you. The PPM statistics flatter the real time performance of trains as they allow a 5 min delay and if arrival times do not represent the actual arrival. Bit academic in some respects but the rail industry setting its own benchmarks is again the wrong starting place. It’s what passengers measure of the service that is relevant.

 

[Stopper]

At Stirling, it shows the train as having arrived up to two minutes before sometimes.

 

[Ginaro]

Yes. Simply. If you as an organisation cannot deliver the timetable change then one has to postpone it. Commuters would rather have a slightly worse timetable if it meant that the service was more likely to exist.

What's the difference between cancelling services on a new timetable, or changing the timetable to run fewer services (but which are on time)? Because surely they wouldn't have been able to run the old timetable given the number of class 170s which have gone off lease?

Still not sure what triggers an arrival . Is it a point in the track ? I do notice that the platform displays do often does say “arrived” but in fact it’s not even in sight but reaches the platform a min later.

From the passengers perspective I think the the point of arrival is when you can get on or off a train. Is that a fair benchmark ?

I was following a service on realtimetrains as I walked to catch it today. It arrived and stopped at 15:20:50 which was recorded in RTT as 1520¾ so it seems fairly accurate. It assume depends on where the timing loop or track circuit is - maybe for bigger stations it is before the tracks split into the different platforms?

 

[Esker-pades]

What's the difference between cancelling services on a new timetable, or changing the timetable to run fewer services (but which are on time)? Because surely they wouldn't have been able to run the old timetable given the number of class 170s which have gone off lease?

1: People know what trains will arrive when. IE: There is a higher chance that a train advertised will actually exist. Currently, services are not planned cancelled with any form of notice. It's on-the-day ad hoc cancellations.
2: 365s, 380s and 385s can run to 170 and 158 times.
3: There are fewer sets required to run the previous timetable than the current one meaning that training backlogs would have less of an impact on services.

 

[68000]

The devil is in the detail. Statistics are so readily manipulated. If the time of arrival is anything other than when the train stops at the platform. That is not it’s time of arrival. If your sitting outside Waverley waiting for a platform. You have not arrived. If you were to say to passengers even before the current crisis that only 15% of thier trains are late or canceled they would not believe you. The PPM statistics flatter the real time performance of trains as they allow a 5 min delay and if arrival times do not represent the actual arrival. Bit academic in some respects but the rail industry setting its own benchmarks is again the wrong starting place. It’s what passengers measure of the service that is relevant.

If you are sitting on a train outside the station waiting for a platform, the system will not show that train as having arrived! Think about what you are saying

 

[Stopper]

If you are sitting on a train outside the station waiting for a platform, the system will not show that train as having arrived! Think about what you are saying

I don’t know about Waverley but certainly at Haymarket I have experienced this.

 

[68000]

The train you were on was stopped at a signal waiting for the platform to clear and the system has shown that train as arrived? or you were on the platform waiting for the train and the system showed the train as arrived?

 

[Esker-pades]

If you are sitting on a train outside the station waiting for a platform, the system will not show that train as having arrived! Think about what you are saying

It does though. I often meet trains at Waverley which show as arrived 1.5 minutes before they actually do. For example, the 21:21 arrival from London at Edinburgh (if on time) will show it having arrived at 21:21 at 21:19. The system often pre-empts arrival times.

 

[68000]

If you are sitting on a train at a red signal waiting for the platform to clear (which is what was stated in the questioning about PPM), the system will not show that train has arrived because another train is in the platform. The system I am referring to is the signalling system which then feeds into the PPM metrics

 

[Stopper]

The train you were on was stopped at a signal waiting for the platform to clear and the system has shown that train as arrived? or you were on the platform waiting for the train and the system showed the train as arrived?

I’ve been held near the crossovers waitin for a platform at Haymarket that shows the train as having arrived. It happens at Larbert and Stirling a lot too. It definitely happens.

 

[Mingulay]

It is the signalling system (track circuit or other means), it may be fairer but the UK Government will need to invest Billions of £££ in finding ways of measuring every train arrival when the doors are available to be opened

Well it certainly would not merit that kind of investment, no. Albeit technology will be available now to sense the presence of a

At Stirling, it shows the train as having arrived up to two minutes before sometimes.

At Stirling, it shows the train as having arrived up to two minutes before sometimes.

If you are sitting on a train outside the station waiting for a platform, the system will not show that train as having arrived! Think about what you are saying

Thank you again.

I'm posing the question. You say it's triggered at a point in the track. It's not always when the train arrives at a platform as that would require a big investment. I don't know where these points are. But if it's not it's arrival at the platform it's not an accurate recording of reality. I don't know when a trains arrival is recorded at Waverley. Is it when it arrives on the platform?

 

[Starmill]

I’ve been held near the crossovers waitin for a platform at Haymarket that shows the train as having arrived. It happens at Larbert and Stirling a lot too. It definitely happens.

Where, in these cases, is your train shown as having 'Arrived'?

The train will normally be shown as arriving once it has reached the relevant signalling section that the platform is in. Normally this is sufficient but certain locations, this may be very long. There are ways to deal with this if so. You will sometimes find there is a problem with an offset in this manner. Some trains are fitted with GPS tracking that can be used to give a time when the train arrives and on some systems when the doors open. Have ScotRail fitted GPS to any units?

Inaccurate data is sometimes recorded, depending on the source of it. Some data will need to be entered manually. Some timing points might have more reliable sources than others. Those using 'realtime trains' and expecting that to display an entirely accurate depiction of either the reality or what the signalling data has actually recorded are falling into a very common trap also.

In some areas, signalling is so rudimentary e.g. token block working or one train working, that only very limited data might be available.

 

[Starmill]

Is it when it arrives on the platform?

The actual arrival time should never be anything other than this. It would not be an arrival time otherwise, would it...

It may be wrong, on occasion, because of poor data or any number of other problems as I've hinted at above. I've experienced these myself, but quite rarely.

 

[DuncanS]

Where, in these cases, is your train shown as having 'Arrived'?

At Stirling it shows on the departure board as having "Arrived" even though it clearly hasnt as there is no train in the station or in sight - happened to me last night on my way back to Falkirk and its a very common occurrence. Generally at Stirling if the board changes to arrived you know that the train will be there in the next couple of minutes.

 

[cogload]

No.

The amount of public expenditure in Scotland has been set by the UK government since 1707.

Who spends that amount is split between the UK government and Scottish government but the amount is set by the UK government.

If a Scottish government wanted to raise or reduce expenditure, it couldn't. It only decides where the block grant is spent. Not how much.

The deficit including borrowing and taxation is also the responsibility of the UK government..

But taking your point, one has to ask why the brits in Scotland can't pay their own way.

Goodnight

Not correct at all but totally off topic for this thread.

 

[sprinterguy]

Silly question from someone not involved in the industry. Instead of refurbishing 125s, why did they not just order brand new trains instead?

Are the trains "owned" by the franchisees / government or just leased?

It seems from an outside point of view the whole way UK rail operates is horrendously complicated.

The HSTs are leased from Angel Trains.

Part of the reason for choosing HSTs over new trains will no doubt have been the shorter timescale when they were proposed to enter service - Rather a moot point now, of course, with the ongoing delays to the refurbishment project. Angel Trains may also have offered more favourable leasing costs for the HSTs, with no other future work lined up for them, than could be achieved with new trains.

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

So having just read comments from FelixtheCat on the 385 thread, it seems like from May, the last E-G mainline service will be leaving Waverley every evening at 23:16 instead of 23:30 - can anyone confirm this? I really hope it's not true - more insult to injury being added by ScotRail if so, cutting nights out in Edinburgh shorter and directly impacting more passengers on the route.

 

[385001]

So having just read comments from FelixtheCat on the 385 thread, it seems like from May, the last E-G mainline service will be leaving Waverley every evening at 23:16 instead of 23:30 - can anyone confirm this? I really hope it's not true - more insult to injury being added by ScotRail if so, cutting nights out in Edinburgh shorter and directly impacting more passengers on the route.

Strange that there would be a 2345 from Queen Street to Waverley but the latest from Waverley to Queen Street would be 2316. Maybe something to do with the Queen Street redevelopment?

 

[alangla]

It’s a very odd one. 2316 arrives 0007 but there’s an 0015 from Grahamston behind (P5, I wondered if it might be low level via Barnhill, but no) then the usual procession of ECS to Eastfield. Low level closes 0023, before the ECS procession

 

[glasgowtripper]

23:16!! Surely that’s a misprint?

 

[Mingulay]

At Stirling it shows on the departure board as having "Arrived" even though it clearly hasnt as there is no train in the station or in sight - happened to me last night on my way back to Falkirk and its a very common occurrence. Generally at Stirling if the board changes to arrived you know that the train will be there in the next couple of minutes.

That's my experience at Stirling. So if that "arrived" display on the board in the station is the trigger time for PPM, then in reality a train that is say 5 mins late is actually 6 or 7 mins late but it still counts as it's on time asr PPM? It matters not for comparing relative performance in fairness , my point is the way the statistics are calculated and presented greatly flatter the rail industry relative to realtime passenger experience which of course is the real measure of punctuality performance.

When I was in correspondence with Scotrail in 2017 about the poor service then. Which by comparison to the 2019 service which is as we all now currently far worse with cancellations. My recorded times on the services I used over Nov /Dec 2017. 63 journeys on actual platform arrivals were 8% arrived as per timetable. Scotrail claim 81% at that time. as per PPM with the 5 min leeway. 40% Scotrail claim was 92%. No of trains cancelled or delayed more than 5mins. 60%.

I readily concede these are mostly, not all , peak time services so more likely delayed or cancelled. It was a snapshot over 2 months and just my route. But it does give a strong suspicion that the statistics the industry and Scotrail are judged will almost certainly not reflect the passenger reality.

No doubt a red rag to a bull for some in the industry. Tin hat on!

 

[Dr Hoo]

That's my experience at Stirling. So if that "arrived" display on the board in the station is the trigger time for PPM, then in reality a train that is say 5 mins late is actually 6 or 7 mins late but it still counts as it's on time asr PPM? It matters not for comparing relative performance in fairness , my point is the way the statistics are calculated and presented greatly flatter the rail industry relative to realtime passenger experience which of course is the real measure of punctuality performance.

When I was in correspondence with Scotrail in 2017 about the poor service then. Which by comparison to the 2019 service which is as we all now currently far worse with cancellations. My recorded times on the services I used over Nov /Dec 2017. 63 journeys on actual platform arrivals were 8% arrived as per timetable. Scotrail claim 81% at that time. as per PPM with the 5 min leeway. 40% Scotrail claim was 92%. No of trains cancelled or delayed more than 5mins. 60%.

I readily concede these are mostly, not all , peak time services so more likely delayed or cancelled. It was a snapshot over 2 months and just my route. But it does give a strong suspicion that the statistics the industry and Scotrail are judged will almost certainly not reflect the passenger reality.

No doubt a red rag to a bull for some in the industry. Tin hat on!

The phrase missing from this thread of discussion is “berthing offsets”. Ever since BR developed the TRUST performance data capture system and began delay attribution there has been a process whereby a specific amount of time is added on to the moment where services approaching a station pass the ‘protecting’ signal and enter the ‘last’ track circuit(s). This time will vary by location and even platform. Performance figures are ‘post offset’.
Some passenger information systems simply work on a ‘route set’ or ‘entering final section’ basis and can display “arrived” straight away.

 

[OrangeJuice]

That's my experience at Stirling. So if that "arrived" display on the board in the station is the trigger time for PPM, then in reality a train that is say 5 mins late is actually 6 or 7 mins late but it still counts as it's on time asr PPM? It matters not for comparing relative performance in fairness , my point is the way the statistics are calculated and presented greatly flatter the rail industry relative to realtime passenger experience which of course is the real measure of punctuality performance.

When I was in correspondence with Scotrail in 2017 about the poor service then. Which by comparison to the 2019 service which is as we all now currently far worse with cancellations. My recorded times on the services I used over Nov /Dec 2017. 63 journeys on actual platform arrivals were 8% arrived as per timetable. Scotrail claim 81% at that time. as per PPM with the 5 min leeway. 40% Scotrail claim was 92%. No of trains cancelled or delayed more than 5mins. 60%.

I readily concede these are mostly, not all , peak time services so more likely delayed or cancelled. It was a snapshot over 2 months and just my route. But it does give a strong suspicion that the statistics the industry and Scotrail are judged will almost certainly not reflect the passenger reality.

No doubt a red rag to a bull for some in the industry. Tin hat on!

Whilst I have no knowledge of Stirling I got used to seeing similar messages on Realtime trains, where trains were showing arrived when not in sight at Crewe, but RTT had added time on for when it 'would' *be at a stand. Sometimes this was acuurate, occasionally the train would stop before RTT said it would but more usually after such time.

Anyway I think I've wittered on enough. May I suggest looking on the detailed RTT page for Stirling if you are there and seeing if the arrived messages correlate and then how much time is added?

 

[47271]

I wouldn't worry too much about how on time departures are recorded, apparently it's going to be two years before they reach their punctuality targets anyway.

The story also includes a link to download the Nichols report, which follows on from the Donovan report. More and more reports and poorer and poorer performance it seems....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46814484

ScotRail forecasts it will be 2021 before it meets punctuality target

ScotRail has admitted it does not expect to hit its punctuality targets for another two years.

The train operator's forecast suggests it will be 2021 before it reaches the target of 92.5% of services running on time.

A review commissioned by regulators states ScotRail faces "significant challenges" in meeting the target.

The operator does, however, expect to see some substantial improvements by March this year.

Ministers have ordered ScotRail to improve its performance following a recent surge in cancellations.

The train operator has apologised to customers and says its staff are working "flat out" to make the service better.

New trains
The most recent problems have been blamed on training issues with new trains, while strikes, engineering works and storms have also had an impact in recent years.

Under the terms of the ScotRail franchise, operator Abellio is expected to hit a target of 92.5% of trains arriving at their final destination within five minutes of the advertised time.

An internal performance strategy document for ScotRail shows it expects the "public performance measure" (PPM) - which currently stands at 87.3%- to hit 92.4% by March this year, and then 92.5% by March, 2021.

The ScotRail punctuality forecasts are contained in an independent review of the train operator's performance commissioned by UK-wide regulator, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

The ORR asked consultancy firm Nichols to assess how well ScotRail was complying with a 2017 review by rail industry expert Nick Donovan on how the train operator could improve its punctuality.

The Nichols report praised ScotRail's increased focus and momentum around performance management, as well as better focus at and senior and working levels. However, it raised concerns about how much progress was being made.

It states: "Despite the evidence of significant activity in regard to the implementation of the recommendations since the publication of the Donovan Report, there has been a further decline in performance and this raises questions about when the positive effects from implementation of the recommendations will materialise".

In concludes that hitting the 92.5% PPM target presents a "significant challenge" - especially given it is a much tougher target than what is being achieved in other rail franchises across the UK.

Stop skipping ban
A ScotRail spokesman said: "We're really sorry to customers for the recent disruption to services. We know the impact this has on your day, and are working flat out to get things back to normal.

"Actions from the Donovan review have been praised in the Nichols report, and these actions have seen the banning of stop-skipping except as a last resort and improvements in train reliability.

"But our performance is not where we want it to be, and as this year progresses our customers will see improvements."

Transport secretary Mr Matheson has warned Abellio could be stripped of its franchise if does not improve its performance.

Scottish Labour's transport spokesman Colin Smyth MSP said: "The truth is this failing franchise has never met its performance target and no one now seriously believes they ever will, even by 2021.

"Michael Matheson has turned a blind eye to ScotRail's appalling record of failure and left passengers to suffer delays, cancellations, overcrowding and yet another hike in fares."

 

[Deltic1961]

By which time people will have ran out of patience and found alternative transport.

Not exactly helping with the Scottish government green aganda at all.

 

[Mingulay]

I wouldn't worry too much about how on time departures are recorded, apparently it's going to be two years before they reach their punctuality targets anyway.

The story also includes a link to download the Nichols report, which follows on from the Donovan report. More and more reports and poorer and poorer performance it seems....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46814484

Indeed. PPM is largely meaningless other than to superficially make TOCs look like they run most trains to timetable . The realty of your train arriving at its platform destination as per timetable is far different for many passengers. If only they could do the easy stuff. Cleaning would be a start.

But clearly the industry and franchise model is discredited in its ability to deliver meaningful improvements and customer satisfaction and our clueless politicians and civil servants here don’t have any real answers either.

Looks like it’s the same story . Pay up and put up with it. The only sanction we have as passengers is to punish politicians and parties with our votes who we deem to have failed to deliver a fit for purpose railway. Think you can take your pick of parties there. But the government in power is a good place to start.

 

[cb a1]

Looks like it’s the same story . Pay up and put up with it. The only sanction we have as passengers is to punish politicians and parties with our votes who we deem to have failed to deliver a fit for purpose railway. Think you can take your pick of parties there. But the government in power is a good place to start.

A far, far, far more effective sanction is to not use the railway. The state of the railway will have pretty much no interest to the 95% of the population who rarely use it. Also, remember that it doesn't matter who you vote for the government always gets in. I have a keen interest in politics and the transport system and changing the transport minister (and it doesn't matter what colour rosette they wear) has very little impact on road, rail, bus, air, ferry, etc. Whilst Scottish Labour want to effectively re-nationalise the railways, that's little different to changing the transport minister. Which Scottish political party actually has any plans to change what we the passengers experience?

Conversely, if say just 10% of passengers voted with their feet and used the bus or drove instead, that would have a far bigger impact!

 

[Mingulay]

Yes ideally we would vote without feet

Sadly for me and many. Even an overpriced overcrowded frequently delayed service is better than the car into Edinburgh. Finding parking the cost and all that goes with it. I drove for years Glasgow to Edinburgh. But now the roads and city are clogged. Drive and tram is an option I use. Car parking needs extending tho at ingleston.

Or you do what the French do. Take to the streets. ! Not really us that !

 

[68000]

Here is a link to the report if anyone has an interest in it

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/40035/jn5419-nichols-scotland-performance-report.pdf

 

[boabt]

It's going to be two years before they hit their target of 92.5%?
But they aim to hit 92.4% by March of this year?

There'll be protests in the streets over that 0.1% for sure!

I wouldn't worry too much about how on time departures are recorded, apparently it's going to be two years before they reach their punctuality targets anyway.

The story also includes a link to download the Nichols report, which follows on from the Donovan report. More and more reports and poorer and poorer performance it seems....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46814484