110mph Running

[HSTEd]

I know there is large amounts of 100mph and 125mph speed limits on British railways, but is there actually a large amount of track with 110mph speed limits?
It seems the only significant sections where that is the absolute linespeed (and not a non EPS limit as on parts of the WCML) is sections of the GWML and MML.

So does anyone know any major stretches of 110?

Additionally are there any major main lines that are not primarily 125mph outside of third-rail land?

Also, before the current craze for taking 100mph multiple units and uprating them to 110mph top speed (see the proposals for the Cl365s on the ECML and now for Cl350s on the WCML), have there ever been any proposals for multiple units to have 110mph top speeds as-designed? Or is this top speed the province of locomotives like the Class 87 and 90.

EDIT: Oops, can someone move to infrastructure please.

 

[londonmidland]

I think the majority of the Midland Mainline from Bedford to St Pancras is 110mph.

 

[Eagle]

The up line between Lea Hall and Coventry is 110, including the platform line (p4) at BHI. Oddly, the down line is only 100.

 

[jamieP]

What's this about the 365s? First I've heard of this.

Jamie

 

[matchmaker]

Additionally are there any major main lines that are not primarily 125mph outside of third-rail land?

Apart from the ECML and WCML Scotland has none over 100mph, ASAIK.

 

[WestCountry]

Additionally are there any major main lines that are not primarily 125mph outside of third-rail land?

GEML and MML are mostly 100mph and 110mph respectively. Both of these count in my view.

What's this about the 365s? First I've heard of this.

Same here

 

[TGV]

What's this about the 365s? First I've heard of this.

Jamie

It's a theory at the early stages that 365's are capable of 110 in normal service and therefore could reduce flow conflicts on the ECML and also be a valid alternative to IEP on longer routes (Peterborough fasts and King's Lynn). I've only heard it discussed (in the industry and by people here) though, not in any formal capacity.

 

[The Planner]

The up line between Lea Hall and Coventry is 110, including the platform line (p4) at BHI. Oddly, the down line is only 100.

Not quite, the 110 is EPS only and between Stechford and Marston Green as far as I recall. It is down to signal spacing and braking distances.

My mistake, it is MU aswell, and from the other side of International too.

 

[shaun]

Reading - Taunton is 110mph, with bits of 100 and 90 thrown in. Not sure where...
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It's a theory at the early stages that 365's are capable of 110 in normal service and therefore could reduce flow conflicts on the ECML and also be a valid alternative to IEP on longer routes (Peterborough fasts and King's Lynn). I've only heard it discussed (in the industry and by people here) though, not in any formal capacity.

They'll need a refurbishment first, as they're still designed internally for short commuter routes despite working Kings Cross - Kings Lynn. They're no different to any other Networker EMU or DMU inside, they should be more like a Chiltern 168.

 

[317666]

They'll need a refurbishment first, as they're still designed internally for short commuter routes despite working Kings Cross - Kings Lynn. They're no different to any other Networker EMU or DMU inside, they should be more like a Chiltern 168.

They have 2+2 seating, half-size tables in bays of 4 and seat-back trays, but I agree the seats aren't really good enough for Kings Cross - Kings Lynn.

 

[Zoe]

Reading - Taunton is 110mph, with bits of 100 and 90 thrown in. Not sure where...

Most of the route via the Berks and Hants is not 110 mph. There are three 110 mph sections (one around Newbury and two between Pewsey and Westbury) but the longest of these is just over 8 miles. There is also a 110 mph section on the GWML from south of Uphill Junction to Huntspill.

 

[TGV]

They'll need a refurbishment first, as they're still designed internally for short commuter routes despite working Kings Cross - Kings Lynn. They're no different to any other Networker EMU or DMU inside, they should be more like a Chiltern 168.

165s and 465s have 3+2 seating. 365s have 2+2 and greater seat pitch. They feel very different when you actually sit inside them. Much more like a medium distance train like a 170 than a short distance commuter unit.

The key was their original names:

165: Networker turbo
465: Networker
365: Networker express

They are due a mid-life refurbishment beginning in 2013.

 

[notadriver]

The main line from Liverpool Street to Cambridge has a 90 mph maximum (less in many places) and on the Liverpool Street to Norwich, I believe 100 mph is only allowed east of Chelmsford.

 

[Liam]

Much of the ECML from Edinburgh to Newcastle is 110 or 115.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did once check the details but I think there is no 125mph running west of the Cotswold tunnels (Box, Badminton) on GW, and nothing much over 90 in South Wales (a bit of 100 west of Bridgend).
Mostly 100 west of Bristol to Exeter, and apart from a small stretch near Exminster is 90 or less beyond. 110 around Bridgwater.

On the old Midland it's mostly 100 south of Bromsgrove to Yate, but there are plans for 125 soon where practicable (as on MML).
Stretches of 125 already on Water Orton-Derby-Chesterfield

110mph Sandbach to Cheadle Hulme (no tilt).
Very little 125mph running north of Berwick until Dunbar.
Nothing over 100 north of Glasgow or Edinburgh.

 

[The Planner]

Bromsgrove to Yate has already had minor speed increases recently. There were plans for significant sections of 100 and 110 but it was all descoped because of the level crossings and cash. You wont get 125 down there for a long time.

 

[Zoe]

Mostly 100 west of Bristol to Exeter, and apart from a small stretch near Exminster is 90 or less beyond. 110 around Bridgwater.

The only 90 west of Exminster is from Teignmouth to Newton Abbot. West of there other than a stretch of 80 mph near Hemerdon it's no higher than 75 mph.

 

[anthony263]

I did read somewhere they were looking at raising the linespeed between Bristol & Bridgewater to 125mph

 

[LE Greys]

Reading-Taunton has quite a few 110 sections, there's one that begins just east of Westbury, although I'm not quite sure where it stops. Some of the tighter curves around the Kennett Valley can be as slow as 70.

There are not very many sections of 110 on the ECML, they tend to be 105 or 115. Certainly, south of Woolmer Green, it's 105 through the Welwyn tunnels, then 115 on the fast lines for most of the way to Bounds Green, although the Hatfield curves were restricted to 100 for some time after the derailment. There are some 125 sections north of Berwick (at least I remember seeing 125 boards), but most of the route from Drem to Prestonpans is 110. South of Berwick, it varies a lot, but there is certainly 125 north of Chathill, but it's mostly 115. I reckon they take the view that limits which end in 5 are easier to keep to than those that end in 0.

 

[Zoe]

Reading-Taunton has quite a few 110 sections, there's one that begins just east of Westbury, although I'm not quite sure where it stops. Some of the tighter curves around the Kennett Valley can be as slow as 70.

As I said above there are only three, one does indeed start just east of Westbury and runs for about 8 miles, there is then about 3 miles of 100 and 90 before another 110 mph section to just west of Pewsey. The final section is 7 miles from just west of Kintbury to about 3/4 of a mile east of Newbury racecourse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did read somewhere they were looking at raising the linespeed between Bristol & Bridgewater to 125mph

Correct, with the possibility of other improvements between Bridgwater and Plymouth where possible.

 

[HSTEd]

So a train limited to 110mph on the Cornwall route would only loose time on the London-Reading stretch of track?

How much of the MML that is presently 110mph will be uprated to 125mph?
Would a 110mph limited multiple unit train be able to keep to the present timings kept by say... HSTs on that route?

 

[Anonywave]

I did once check the details but I think there is no 125mph running west of the Cotswold tunnels (Box, Badminton) on GW,

Yeah the limit goes down to 100 just west of the Box Tunnel, however unless an HST for whatever reason doesn't stop at Chippenham (passing through at over 100mph) trains wouldn't go over 100 between Chippenham and Box.

 

[Zoe]

There is a short 125 mph section on the South Wales and Bristol Direct line just west of Westerleigh Junction but this is only on the down line. On the Great Western Main Line the 125 mph ends at the eastern portal of Middle Hill Tunnel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So a train limited to 110mph on the Cornwall route would only loose time on the London-Reading stretch of track?

Unless it was going via Bristol. However you also need to take into account the type of train used, for example it could have better acceleration than an HST.

 

[HSTEd]

There is a short 125 mph section on the South Wales and Bristol Direct line just west of Westerleigh Junction but this is only on the down line. On the Great Western Main Line the 125 mph ends at the eastern portal of Middle Hill Tunnel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless it was going via Bristol. However you also need to take into account the type of train used, for example it could have better acceleration than an HST.

Coupled pairs of five coach 110mph geared Turbostars (I assume since electrostars/desiros can apparently do it, Turbostars could) or Electrostars (if electrification to Cornwall ever happened, even MU standard) running ten coaches to Plymouth with portion working to Penzance, giving it an hourly service?

Anyway....

 

[Zoe]

Coupled pairs of five coach 110mph geared Turbostars (I assume since electrostars/desiros can apparently do it, Turbostars could) or Electrostars (if electrification to Cornwall ever happened, even MU standard) running ten coaches to Plymouth with portion working to Penzance, giving it an hourly service?

Anyway....

I'm not that well up on what the acceleration ability of these would be although looking the last comment in the post, I'm not completely sure just how serious you were about the idea.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not that well up on what the acceleration ability of these would be although looking at your last comment in the post, I'm not completely sure just how serious you were about the idea.

Well yeah... the main question I was wondering about is whether my assumption that a Turbostar would be equally capable of 110mph as an Electrostar being as they are based on the same or similar bodies.

But would anyone have an opinion on a new build of Turbostar derived 110mph units to take up operations on routes with sub-125mph running, or on routes where Express Sprinters are currently unable to make use of the line speed to its maximum extent (they are also getting on)?
Ditto 110mph Electrostars for electrified secondary express routes.

I got interrupted half way through the post and never added a question... sorry.
On the face of it it looks like a 10 carriage Cl17x with the engines from the 172 would have similar power to weight ratio to a HST set, so its a question of gearing I would think.

 

[Zoe]

One issue is that the relief lines from Paddington to Maidenhead are going to be busy with Crossrail and I'm not sure how well 110 mph trains would work on the main lines between Paddington and Reading considering that there are going to be two extra 125 mph trains per hour between Paddington and Bristol under the current plans. I know the Heathrow Express does use the main lines but this is only as far as Airport Junction.

 

[HSTEd]

One issue is that the relief lines from Paddington to Maidenhead are going to be busy with Crossrail and I'm not sure how well 110 mph trains would work on the main lines between Paddington and Reading considering that there are going to be two extra 125 mph trains per hour between Paddington and Bristol under the current plans. I know the Heathrow Express does use the main lines but this is only as far as Airport Junction.

Well transiting between Paddington and Maidenhead (roughly 38km), where the relief lines become free, at 110mph would loose roughly 90 seconds compared to 125mph, assuming the acceleration profiles of the trains were the same.

So if we assume a Turbostar (with half it's weight on driven axles) could out accelerate the HST to start with, I think there is a fair chance that the time lost could be kept sufficiently small to stop it seriously damaging the timetable.

What is then needed is SP110 on the relief lines between Maidenhead and Reading.

 

[Zoe]

What is then needed is SP110 on the relief lines between Maidenhead and Reading.

The crossover though is about five miles west of Maidenhead at Ruscombe and Down Main to Down Relief is 70 mph MU so you'd lose time there.

 

[HSTEd]

The crossover though is about five miles west of Maidenhead at Ruscombe and Down Main to Down Relief is 70 mph MU so you'd lose time there.

So the question is whether continuing to Reading at 110 on the fasts is going to loose less time than slowing to 70 and clearing the line at Ruscombe?

Well there is another thing, could you not flight the train in front of a Heathrow Express service so that the 125mph train following it would be two paths behind, giving the train the time it needs to reach Reading before the next one catches up?

EDIT: Also, with a mechanical transmission like the one on the Cl172, you could probably gear for 110mph operation by adding an extra gear ratio, while keeping acceleration up to 100mph the same as it is now.