125mph frieght?

[Adamw5433]

With all the doom-sayers looking forward to the 'old' HSTs (the power cars) and wanting the IEP to replace it.
Could anyone see a time when a new wagon design, with triple brake discs similar to Mk4 brakes. Carrying container and / or inter-modal being hauled by modified HST power cars?

If inter-modal or containers were passed for 125mph running or even just 100mph, could anyone really see a power car pulling a rake of such wagons.

I only ask as a friend pointed out that most of the old express engines, (LNER) A1, A3 and A4s did at some point get pushed onto frieght.
He said that HSTs and class 91s will go the same way.
I said i doubted the HST on frieght idea, but the class 91 was designed to run slab ended on night frieghts back in BR days.
I then thought if a HST power car was suitably modified, at economical costs to be used on frieght. Could we see it happen?

I'm sat on the fence on this one.
Most frieght operators would most likely buy new, in the case of 100mph running. As i could see a tractive effort problem with HSTs.
I also couldn't see TnT power cars on frieght either.

It would be nice to see HSTs get an extended bow out on frieght like the 86s, but i personaly don't see it.

I'd just like to hear peoples views.

 

[northernrail]

I couldn't see it really, whats the top speed of a single power car when not in multiple???

 

[Darandio]

Isn't it 75mph because of brake force issues?

 

[Adamw5433]

Isn't it 75mph because of brake force issues?

I believe thats correct.
This is the point i was arguing, that a single power car only has 2,000+ hp.
Most frieghts today have double or more that amount.

I also tried (but seemed to fall on death ears) that a class 67 is better suited to 125 running on frieght, if a 125 container / inter-modal wagon was produced.

Again i could easily see a Class 91 on this type of frieght, even if it was limited to 100 - 110mph running.
The problem with a 91 is, would loading of wagons be effected by the presence of overhead lines.
Or are the electric locos decoupled from the train, before entering a loading area?

Adam

 

[90019]

I believe thats correct.
This is the point i was arguing, that a single power car only has 2,000+ hp.
Most frieghts today have double or more that amount.

But surely for freight, it's tractive effort that's relevant, not power.

 

[Darandio]

But surely for freight, it's tractive effort that's relevant, not power.

Well yes, and look at when one power car fails, the set on one power car doesn't go anywhere very quickly.

In reference to the Class 91, thats obviously much more viable given the intention was there in the first place. Not sure about where the problems would be with regards to OHLE as if used, surely they would be suited to intermodal therefore having no more of a hurdle than a Class 86 or 90.

 

[142094]

Thing is that we have plenty of actual locomotives that were built for freight only languishing in various DB yards across the country. This includes the 60s and some 66s which all could be returned to traffic quicker and with less effort than trying to mess around with a HST.

 

[Adamw5433]

So i think we can all agree that an frieght train hauled by a Class 43 HST power is out of the question (ammo to use against said friend)

Staying on the question of 125mph frieght, could anyone see it happening?

Adam

---- Edited thread title to keep it relevant----

 

[ChrisCooper]

It's got to be remembed that most freight is restricted to 60mph or less. The fastest are the 75mph Freightliners. Axle weight is a big part of it, loaded freight trains are heavy, so even for bogies vehicles axle weights are high. The only high speed freight has been mail and parcels. That's the one area where HSTs could perhaps see use, 125mph mail or parcels trains, like the Postal TGVs SNCF have. Since little of that goes by rail these days, and the current flow is up the WCML where HSTs would give little or no advantage (not much 125mph running for none tilting stock, lots would involve lots of diesel running under the wires), I really can't see it. A mail flow down to the South West would be the best for using HSTs. Either that or a system using lightweight containers for shipping time sensitive good by rail.

 

[142094]

Using HSTs for parcels sounds like a good idea, not sure how many of the original PO vans are still around in a useable condition. All it would need is for the seats to be ripped out and a tidy up. Although the problem is would Royal Mail consider sending more post by rail?

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Using HSTs for parcels sounds like a good idea, not sure how many of the original PO vans are still around in a useable condition. All it would need is for the seats to be ripped out and a tidy up. Although the problem is would Royal Mail consider sending more post by rail?

If the price was right, I don't see why not!

 

[andyfrommk]

Staying on the question of 125mph frieght, could anyone see it happening?

Definetly not!
Can you imagine (or for brainier people, calculate) the drag those 8'6" by 8'6" boxes must produce at 125mph?

Think of a half loaded container train, the air hits the front of the box, whips round the back then hits the front of the next box, the resistance given by those 8'6" by 8'6" square areas start adding up .

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The French have run 125mph freight for a number of years on a limited scale, but I seem to recall that they have discontinued this last year on account of the extra costs involved.

Obviously that excludes the TGV postal sets...

 

[Adamw5433]

Definetly not!
Can you imagine (or for brainier people, calculate) the drag those 8'6" by 8'6" boxes must produce at 125mph?

Think of a half loaded container train, the air hits the front of the box, whips round the back then hits the front of the next box, the resistance given by those 8'6" by 8'6" square areas start adding up .

Yer i can see the downside to 125 running.
Personaly i think the only was rail frieght is going to win massively over long distance road frieght is going to be the speeding up of rail frieght services.

Adam

 

[asylumxl]

Yer i can see the downside to 125 running.
Personaly i think the only was rail frieght is going to win massively over long distance road frieght is going to be the speeding up of rail frieght services.

Adam

I don't think 125mph is needed to compete. Surely anything over 70 with good pathing should be fine?

 

[90019]

I don't think 125mph is needed to compete. Surely anything over 70 with good pathing should be fine?

Faster than 56mph over a long distance, without long stopovers should be quicker than road, though depends how direct the train is.

 

[YorkshireBear]

no a mixture of 67's 90's HST's 91's and 325's on a reinstalled post and parcel by rail system, i like the sound of that.

something i would hope to be involved in if it ever restarted, like a hope/dream

 

[Zoe]

Just put engines underneath some of the wagons and add a driving cab to the lead wagon/container. No need for a separate locomotive then.

 

[jopsuk]

Just put engines underneath some of the wagons and add a driving cab to the lead wagon/container. No need for a separate locomotive then.

A bit like these?. They can only do 130km/h/80mph, but then they are narrow gauge and DC- AC and a wider wheelbase should allow more speed (especially the latter). Presumably when they're at the terminals they're hauled around by shunters.

 

[captainbigun]

Look at the 67s. Quite happy shifting short light rakes at 125, any load and there's a struggle.

The same would apply to 91s, simply not enough TE to shift any load.

 

[Daimler]

Just put engines underneath some of the wagons and add a driving cab to the lead wagon/container. No need for a separate locomotive then.

I have long thought this was an awful idea. It would *significantly* complicate the forming of trains and offers no apparent benefits.

I can't see fixed (or even semi-fixed) formation freights taking off here - it removes a great deal of flexibility.

 

[Zoe]

I can't see fixed (or even semi-fixed) formation freights taking off here - it removes a great deal of flexibility.

It works well for passenger trains. It shouldn't be too difficult to have fixed formation container trains.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It works well for passenger trains. It shouldn't be too difficult to have fixed formation container trains.

Freight trains need to be flexible otherwise you will loose traffic. Sometimes there are 3 containers to move, sometimes 30. If you do fixed formation you loose a lot of this flexibility, and thus, money. Freight and passenger trains are not the same!

 

[GB]

Alot of freight services run into the terminal as one service but then the wagons get shunted and remarshalled to form multiple or strengthen out going services. Or a departing service may serve several destinations.

You would loose this ability with fixed formations.

 

[northernrail]

If some streamlined containers were developed, then possibly but i don't think its needed.
I would love to see a 91 on anything other than passenger or light engine.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Streamlined containers would only work if you had them at the extremities of each train and if there were no gaps ( ie unused spaces for containers ) along the whole train, surely?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Freight already does very well in terms of bulk loads. Where it looses out to the roads is smaller loads, and the problem is that rail does not have the flexability to compete when it comes to smaller loads. Road transport can go direct from the origin to the destination, rail will tend to go from hub to hub, and still needs road transport from origin to hub and hub to destination. This reduces the economy of rail for that sort of load.

 

[jopsuk]

aye- the solution to that would be to have lots of small and efficient hubs with shorter freight trains running between them frequently- but the network does not have the capacity for such operations.

 

[Zoe]

There is often talk of new passenger lines like HS2 but has a dedicated freight only network ever been considered?

 

[tbtc]

There is often talk of new passenger lines like HS2 but has a dedicated freight only network ever been considered?

I mentioned the idea of a dedicated freight line in the HS2/M40 thread today.

I like the logic, as it'd get rid of lots of slow irregularly timed services which clog up passenger lines

Trouble is, where would you build a dedicated freight line?

The advantage of HS2 is that one line from London to the Midlands could take services which currently run north via the WCML/ MML/ ECML (many trains run from London to "the north". However freight services are a little more haphazard - whilst one High Speed line could take dozens of services, how do you find a line that takes a similar number of freight trains? Immingham Docks to Southampton via various Power Stations/ Marshalling Yards?