16:30 London Euston to Glasgow express - gone from May 2016

[tsr]

Could the 16:33 not now omit Warrington & Wigan to save it around 5 minutes or so, assuming there is a clear path ahead Crewe-Preston?
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Just noticed there's 1S83 TPx ex-Manchester Airport due to depart Wigan 18:43 so that scuppers that idea.

I also though along those lines - that surely there could be benefits to making the Euston-Blackpool service depart at 1630 and omit some stops, which could be picked up by the 1633 Euston-Glasgow. Though I suspect that it could make travel from intermediate stations to the North of England / Scotland potentially harder, and we all know how that isn't always well received if we look at the example of the EMT calling pattern in the South Midlands. This must be a pain for those planning to meet the various passenger demands.

An even more idle wondering of mine is whether there could be a double Voyager at 1633 which divides at Preston for Blackpool and Glasgow. I know you'd potentially then have a random Voyager going to Scotland when it might not be wanted, but at least there'd then be a few more coaches for passengers for stops before Preston, and you'd still be able to serve Blackpool with the right stock. It would be an odd mix of destinations, but not the weirdest out there (see also: London Victoria to Brighton and Tonbridge - erm...).

 

[IanD]

While they are at it can they not replace the useless 05.30 departure from Euston with an 06.30 service with a similar calling pattern and journey time to a "daytime" service?

Obviously not useless to everyone, the 530 Ex Euston has always been well loaded when I've boarded at Milton Keynes Central.

 

[Ianno87]

Obviously not useless to everyone, the 530 Ex Euston has always been well loaded when I've boarded at Milton Keynes Central.

The 05xx is so early off Euston that it's quite hard for many passengers to reach Euston early enough to catch it!

Therefore, calling at at Watford, MK and Rugby fills up some spare on-train capacity by making use of marginal time in the diagram (and giving a neat out-and-back business train from these stations to the North West, Cumbria and Scotland, when paired with the 1640/1840 ex-Glasgow)

 

[scotsman]

Could the 16:33 not now omit Warrington & Wigan to save it around 5 minutes or so, assuming there is a clear path ahead Crewe-Preston?
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Just noticed there's 1S83 TPx ex-Manchester Airport due to depart Wigan 18:43 so that scuppers that idea.

When I worked on 1S83, it wasn't uncommon for it to get in front of the 1633 anyway

 

[cle]

Why can't it at least be first stop Preston? And then maybe Lancaster/Carlisle added in?

The Blackpool should cover Crewe and the other Lancs stops - and thus the more local journeys also.

 

[Starmill]

An even more idle wondering of mine is whether there could be a double Voyager at 1633 which divides at Preston for Blackpool and Glasgow. I know you'd potentially then have a random Voyager going to Scotland when it might not be wanted, but at least there'd then be a few more coaches for passengers for stops before Preston, and you'd still be able to serve Blackpool with the right stock. It would be an odd mix of destinations, but not the weirdest out there (see also: London Victoria to Brighton and Tonbridge - erm...).

I believe this even actually happened a few weeks ago because the set for the 1630 failed!

 

[dk1]

When I worked on 1S83, it wasn't uncommon for it to get in front of the 1633 anyway

1S83 is booked in front of the 16:33 mate. That's was why I messed up saying it should skip Warrington/Wigan.

 

[All Line Rover]

Obviously not useless to everyone, the 530 Ex Euston has always been well loaded when I've boarded at Milton Keynes Central.

Same. Getting close to capacity in both classes by the time it reaches Preston. There should be a 06:30 departure from Euston, certainly, but that's no reason to change the 05:30.
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Why can't it at least be first stop Preston? And then maybe Lancaster/Carlisle added in?

The Blackpool should cover Crewe and the other Lancs stops - and thus the more local journeys also.

For as long as the 16:33 remains a single Voyager, the 16:30 should not skip Warrington and Wigan. These are popular destinations and the 16:33 struggles to cope with passengers for these stations combined with Rugby commuters.

 

[6Gman]

For as long as the 16:33 remains a single Voyager, the 16:30 should not skip Warrington and Wigan. These are popular destinations and the 16:33 struggles to cope with passengers for these stations combined with Rugby commuters.

I've caught the 1633 from Stafford a few times. Never had any problem getting two seats together.

 

[scotsman]

1S83 is booked in front of the 16:33 mate. That's was why I messed up saying it should skip Warrington/Wigan.

Now I'm getting mixed up. Both 1S75 and 1S83 used to be booked to follow Pendolinos that - around 15% of the time - it would get out in front of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, I'd have everything call at all IC stations (i.e. not Euxton Balshaw Lane and Leyland) between Crewe and Carlisle. There is a good demand to a variety of those stations, and the odd services that miss one of them out are just confusing and cause things to bunch up.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

To be honest, I'd have everything call at all IC stations (i.e. not Euxton Balshaw Lane and Leyland) between Crewe and Carlisle. There is a good demand to a variety of those stations, and the odd services that miss one of them out are just confusing and cause things to bunch up.

And that's the stupid logic SWT applied to their services and it doesn't work, the slightest knock and the system collapses for hours upon end.

You need to have breaks in sequence to get the journey times balanced and right as well as giving a bit of robustness to it.

 

[Starmill]

To be honest, I'd have everything call at all IC stations (i.e. not Euxton Balshaw Lane and Leyland) between Crewe and Carlisle. There is a good demand to a variety of those stations, and the odd services that miss one of them out are just confusing and cause things to bunch up.

That would work wonders for journey times. You want us to wait 35 years for quicker trains from London to Glasgow? As if it isn't already too late for us to get domestic air traffic onto the rails.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that's the stupid logic SWT applied to their services and it doesn't work, the slightest knock and the system collapses for hours upon end.

That is because Waterloo is full, not because of the stopping pattern.

 

[najaB]

That is because Waterloo is full, not because of the stopping pattern.

And the WCML is famously running under capacity.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And that's the stupid logic SWT applied to their services and it doesn't work, the slightest knock and the system collapses for hours upon end.

But London Midland use skip-stopping and the same thing applies to them: the slightest niggle and the whole lot falls over (and people at smaller intermediate stations get shafted). The issue is capacity, not the stopping pattern.

I actually agree with Neil on this one: under the current timetable pattern they should all call Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith. For one thing, it would take some of the pressure off TPE north of Preston, who end up having to carry the passengers for intermediate stations on top of all the people going Manchester to Scotland. All of those intermediate stations are busy in their own right, and need the service.

 

[The Prisoner]

Having lived in Penrith for years and traveled back there several times to see my parents who still do the number of train users there is very surprising. Have occasionally seen 100-150 waiting for the London trains, which is the best part of 1% of the population!

This is due to the catchment size & the Lakes rather than the population of the town, but I wonder how many other stations can boast such disproportionate use!!

I wish VT & TPE would be a little cleverer with their use of skip stop with the Carlisle - Preston intermediate stations. If there was a sensible pattern then I could understand missing the likes of Oxenholme and/or Penrith out, but you seem to get three in a row that miss one - such as a 1408 to 1522 gap northbound from Oxenholme (three VT/TPE go straight through and all stop @ Penrith) then the next three all stop...two of them at Penrith as well...?! Then going south there is a 1303 direct from Penrith to London via the Trent Valley, but the next three TV services all pass for a stop at Oxenholme leaving the next "direct" service @ 1703 - only VT Penrith stops south are 1422 and 1622 West Midlands/Euston services, with the 1703 Trent Valley service beating the 1622 via WM service into London (though of course it does provide welcome connections for the midlands).

And don't get me started on TPE services missing out Lancaster and their last weekday service of the night not calling at Penrith (2014 Edinburgh - Man Airport) with no connection (station is open - still has northbound services).

Just put a sensible pattern in which leaves no major gaps? The one at the moment just looks utterly random.

 

[najaB]

I wish VT & TPE would be a little cleverer with their use of skip stop with the Carlisle - Preston intermediate stations. If there was a sensible pattern then I could understand missing the likes of Oxenholme and/or Penrith out, but you seem to get three in a row that miss one...

Just put a sensible pattern in which leaves no major gaps? The one at the moment just looks utterly random.

I think a lot of it comes down to trying to get a service pattern that both works with the flighting of trains on the northern WCML and also has to work with the fact that the southern WCLM is operating at capacity. The extra 3 or 4 minutes of a station stop up north might end up meaning there isn't any path into Euston and vv heading north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a lot of it comes down to trying to get a service pattern that both works with the flighting of trains on the northern WCML

You wouldn't, of course, need to "flight" anything if they all called at all stations.

and also has to work with the fact that the southern WCLM is operating at capacity. The extra 3 or 4 minutes of a station stop up north might end up meaning there isn't any path into Euston and vv heading north.

True, though there is perhaps more of an option to change the times at the north end, while the via Brum service sits at Wolves for 20 minutes for precisely that reason.

 

[najaB]

You wouldn't, of course, need to "flight" anything if they all called at all stations.

It's all about getting paths that work for freight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But London Midland use skip-stopping and the same thing applies to them: the slightest niggle and the whole lot falls over (and people at smaller intermediate stations get shafted). The issue is capacity, not the stopping pattern.

Indeed. The issue with Euston and the south WCML is that they are full - simple as that! Hence HS2. HS2 is not about getting to Scotland faster (that's a handy side-effect) or encouraging Brum as a London commuter suburb (that's an unpleasant side-effect), it's about relieving the south WCML by removing the bulk of the InterCity service from it.

I actually agree with Neil on this one: under the current timetable pattern they should all call Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith. For one thing, it would take some of the pressure off TPE north of Preston, who end up having to carry the passengers for intermediate stations on top of all the people going Manchester to Scotland. All of those intermediate stations are busy in their own right, and need the service.

And if you skip-stop you remove the possibility for easy local journeys between the towns. This is justifiable on a full commuter line to get more seats into/out of London, it's less justifiable on the north WCML.

Indeed, wasn't some of the skip-stopping to avoid overloading of single Voyagers and 185s, most of which are no longer operating? So time to revisit.

 

[The Prisoner]

I think a lot of it comes down to trying to get a service pattern that both works with the flighting of trains on the northern WCML and also has to work with the fact that the southern WCLM is operating at capacity. The extra 3 or 4 minutes of a station stop up north might end up meaning there isn't any path into Euston and vv heading north.

I get that, but it doesn't explain why the 1249 from Carlisle to Euston Trent Valley calls at Penrith, not Oxenholme, the 1349, 1449 and 1549 all call at Oxenholme not Penrith and the 1648 calls at both. I don't think there is a need for extra stops which affect the southern section of the WCML - just distribute the ones that are there a little more sensibly. The 1449 should stop at Penrith, or do what the 1648 does and leave a little earlier to call at both.

The last eight southbound VT departures of the day all call at Oxenholme, but only 3 of these also call at Penrith. Surely that means Oxenholme is busier and more worthy of the stops? Maybe, but up until that time (1730) only 13 out of 22 southbound VTs have stopped there (59%). Penrith has 10 out of the same 22 services stopping (45%). Not a huge difference, so why the big evening gaps at one and full on service at the other? The TPE services make all stops after about 4pm on this section with the daft exception of the last Edinburgh - Man Airport sailing through Penrith without stopping after the last southbound service has gone.

I'm merely making the point that it all appears random to the naked eye! No extras stops are needed IMO - just stick to a pattern.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think with genuine flighting you could have the Trent Valley services call Warrington, Wigan, Preston, (maybe Lancaster), Carlisle, with the Birmingham services calling at all stations to Carlisle then Glasgow, and the TPE services calling all stations then Edinburgh. The problem is that there isn't true flighting, and the skip-stopping on the northern WCML is a mess, there's no rhyme or reason to it.

That said, I don't think capacity on the southern WCML should affect things too badly, there's surely the flexibility to leave earlier/arrive later at Glasgow.

 

[bramling]

I think with genuine flighting you could have the Trent Valley services call Warrington, Wigan, Preston, (maybe Lancaster), Carlisle, with the Birmingham services calling at all stations to Carlisle then Glasgow, and the TPE services calling all stations then Edinburgh. The problem is that there isn't true flighting, and the skip-stopping on the northern WCML is a mess, there's no rhyme or reason to it.

That said, I don't think capacity on the southern WCML should affect things too badly, there's surely the flexibility to leave earlier/arrive later at Glasgow.

In a perfect world I suppose one would want two Euston to Glasgow trains per hour, one running limited-stop (eg Euston-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow) and another calling at something like Euston-Crewe-Warrington-Wigan-Preston-Lancaster-Oxenholme-Penrith-Carlisle-Glasgow.

The only path at the London end which could probably be sacrificed would be reducing the Birmingham service to 2tph, perhaps compensated by lengthening the London Midland services to Birmingham, certainly off-peak these don't leave Euston as 12 carriages.

There again, from reading discussions on here it seems an extra hourly Liverpool train could have the greater need.

I've always thought 1630 is a strange time to have the fastest Glasgow train. I'd have thought a mid-morning departure from Euston would have been more useful, as well as avoiding clashing with commuter-type journeys from Euston to the intermediate stations.

 

[Mag_seven]

I'd have thought a mid-morning departure from Euston would have been more useful, as well as avoiding clashing with commuter-type journeys from Euston to the intermediate stations.

Ah memories of the old "Royal Scot". Unfortunately today the fastest trains are (rightly or wrongly) targeted at the prime business rather than leisure markets.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I've always thought 1630 is a strange time to have the fastest Glasgow train. I'd have thought a mid-morning departure from Euston would have been more useful, as well as avoiding clashing with commuter-type journeys from Euston to the intermediate stations.

You remind me of when there used to be a 10:30 (IIRC) Pendolino from London Euston to Glasgow Central which used to only call at Preston and Carlisle en route.

I've never understood why VT don't say run a more limited stop service between Glasgow and London southbound, like they currently do with the 16:30 northbound. I guess it's down to lack of rolling stock, particularly as they used to run the 11:40 and 13:40 Glasgow to Euston none stop from Preston, in the days when they had services at 13:39 and 15:39 ish Lancaster to Euston to fill in the gaps.

 

[AndyW33]

Not a lot, really. If an HS2 service is faster than HEx plus faff time plus flight plus airlink bus, then it will gain passengers. If it's slower, it won't.

4 hours or 4h15 or 4h30 is neither here nor there - below 3 hours or thereabouts is the sweet spot (plus any time for Eurostar style security faff which will no doubt mar HS2).

Its not just Heathrow that has air service to Glasgow. Gatwick, Luton, London City, and Stansted do too, and unless you live next to Euston Station it may actually be quicker to get to one of the airports than into Euston, making it even harder for rail to compete on speed.

 

[Taunton]

The issue with Euston and the south WCML is that they are full.

Ah yes. With 5-car trains operating long distance services (as described above) and morning peak departures leaving at 0800 with two or three passengers per coach in First Class.

 

[Ianno87]

I get that, but it doesn't explain why the 1249 from Carlisle to Euston Trent Valley calls at Penrith, not Oxenholme, the 1349, 1449 and 1549 all call at Oxenholme not Penrith and the 1648 calls at both. I don't think there is a need for extra stops which affect the southern section of the WCML - just distribute the ones that are there a little more sensibly. The 1449 should stop at Penrith, or do what the 1648 does and leave a little earlier to call at both.

The last eight southbound VT departures of the day all call at Oxenholme, but only 3 of these also call at Penrith. Surely that means Oxenholme is busier and more worthy of the stops? Maybe, but up until that time (1730) only 13 out of 22 southbound VTs have stopped there (59%). Penrith has 10 out of the same 22 services stopping (45%). Not a huge difference, so why the big evening gaps at one and full on service at the other? The TPE services make all stops after about 4pm on this section with the daft exception of the last Edinburgh - Man Airport sailing through Penrith without stopping after the last southbound service has gone.

I'm merely making the point that it all appears random to the naked eye! No extras stops are needed IMO - just stick to a pattern.

Earlier on in the day, having trains commonly call at *both* Oxenholme and Penrith would start to eat into the turnround time at Glasgow too much.

The standard southbound Euston departure from Glasgow is at xx.40 (off memory, every hour until 1840?). Adding an extra stop to call both Penrith and Oxenholme every hour would make this something like xx.35.

Northbound, arrivals vary between xx.59 and xx.07ish (depending upon patching into Glasgow). Again, adding an extra stop into these will shift some of these to have turnround times in the 25-30 minutes range, if working back an xx.35 departure is desired. Do-able, but performance-risky every hour, especially with the volume of passengers with large luggage to be exchanged at Glasgow between arrival and departure.

Therefore, every northbound departure from Euston up to and including the 1330 is limited in its calling pattern by the need to work an xx.40 departure back from Glasgow.

Oh, and 'just' changing the departure time from Glasgow is no mean feat when weaving around the Argyle Line timetable at Rutherglen/Newton/Motherwell/Carluke. It's no coincidence that log-distance departures from Glasgow Central are typically at xx.00, xx.30 or xx.40 (I.e. Multiples of 10 minutes) - it's to fit in with the 10 minute interval Argyle Line service at Rutherglen (itself dictated by random stuff like the single line to Milngavie!)

 

[Starmill]

Another thing you've missed is that to do an extra stop elsewhere (such as the second one out of Penrith and Oxenholme, or Motherwell) VT sometimes bave to skip Lancaster. E.g. 1030 and 1330 from Euston