195s truly awful, not a step forward

[Bishopstone]

Southerner here.

I spent yesterday meandering around Merseyside and Greater Manchester on 195s, and their sister 331s.

I thought they rattled a bit, for new units, but otherwise were fast, bright, and comfortable. I am tall, but had sufficient legroom in the airline seats.

Whilst TPE were falling apart, with large numbers of cancellations, every Northern service I wanted ran, with no lateness, and had sufficient capacity. Not quite what I was expecting following the ‘Northern crisis’ narrative, but maybe the bigger problems are east of the Pennines?

 

[skyhigh]

Not quite what I was expecting following the ‘Northern crisis’ narrative, but maybe the bigger problems are east of the Pennines?

Generally the East is the better side!

 

[hooverboy]

Commuters into London don't really have a choice though of driving, there's no way vast numbers of commuters would choose to drive into London to go to the office.

Very true these days.especially with congestion and ULEZ charge mission creep.
Not that driving in London is/was fun in any case.It's a truly horrible experience.

The 172 is the same, it was the way they implemented an EMU style service on the Snow Hill Lines without actually electrifying.

They were basically bought for the wrong reason - they should have been specced for direct 150 and 142 replacement rather than "Northern Connect", as per the similar 172s. Northern do now seem to be using them as such, to be fair, though if built for that I think a higher-density interior would have made more sense. This could have allowed for timetable improvements on the likes of the CLC and Atherton.

They aren't really direct Sprinter replacements,they are more suited to semi-fast regional duties with stops every 10-20 minutes.
With the demise of pacers and 153's,there's only really class 150/165 in service that are designed for regular stop/start abuse and acceleration/braking.

Even GA's 755's which are fantastic bits of kit,are not really built with that kind of duty cycle in mind.

 

[mmh]

It also means that if the guard is busy doing tickets they can complete that before then going to close up rather than having to either dart off from the transaction or keep people waiting who wish to alight.

Realistically it makes no difference to this. A guard doing tickets will still have to stop the transaction to get to a door regardless of who opens them, if they need to be there to close them.

Unless the train with a theoretical capacity of 120 has on it 118, 119 or 120 passengers, nobody should be sat there anyway. There are other seats.

Do you apply the same logic to standing? I routinely don't bother sitting down between Conwy and Llandudno Junction or Colwyn Bay on a busy train. The journey is so short, I'd rather someone who needs a seat have one before me. Seems like politeness to me. Few trains on that route have tip up seats. 158s do. "I shouldn't be sat there?" Baffling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically it makes no difference to this. A guard doing tickets will still have to stop the transaction to get to a door regardless of who opens them, if they need to be there to close them.

It gets them an extra minute or two to complete the transaction.

Do you apply the same logic to standing? I routinely don't bother sitting down between Conwy and Llandudno Junction or Colwyn Bay on a busy train. The journey is so short, I'd rather someone who needs a seat have one before me. Seems like politeness to me. Few trains on that route have tip up seats. 158s do. "I shouldn't be sat there?" Baffling.

No, obviously not. You can stand if you wish. But if you are going to occupy tip up seats which are in an area marked for another purpose, be that bikes, prams or wheelchair users, you must move with good grace if someone with one of those items boards, ideally without even needing to be asked.

My point is that those seats should not exist at all. They are a recipe for conflict.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately the single toilet, which is want to lock itself out of use at the drop off a hat, makes them not up to the job.

Sorry Northern specifiers, but there it is.

It gets them an extra minute or two to complete the transaction.



No, obviously not. You can stand if you wish. But if you are going to occupy tip up seats which are in an area marked for another purpose, be that bikes, prams or wheelchair users, you must move with good grace if someone with one of those items boards, ideally without even needing to be asked.

My point is that those seats should not exist at all. They are a recipe for conflict.

I must admit, I've found the tip-up seats quite handy on a few occasions. A benefit over other such types is that they're off-set from the doors, rather than blocking them.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Ugh, sorry to derail thread somewhat - but totally agree here.. I hate travelling back to Manchester from Yorkshire on some of those routes in the early evening on a Saturday night. The last time after a trip out to take photos in yorkshire during the day I was sat on a table on my own when a group of loud drunk blokes with tins of beer came on then also started throwing a sex toy around the carriage and trying to get my attention with it..
Going to make a wild assumption that they didn't bother to take their rubbish off the train too.

If you've ever travelled on the penultimate or last Leeds to Manchester Victoria service of the day, these services are rife with anti social behaviour from tanked up morons as they've either bunged the toliet up, or set the alarm sounding or someone's vaping. If its a three car 195 then you really have nowhere to move to but if its 2X two car 195 then its only a fraction better as the front unit (rear from Bradford) is slightly quieter. Its a relief once in Halifax as its fairly quiet oddly enough on a Saturday night walking from the railway station to the bus station (as most people will be in the Acca, Attik, Tipsy Pidgeon or in the Percy Shaw).

Ulleskelf? Ravensthorpe? Kirkstall Forge?

If its the penultimate or last Leeds to Manchester Victoria service then the only best options are Bramley, Low Moor, Walsden and Mills Hill.

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

Unfortunately the single toilet, which is want to lock itself out of use at the drop off a hat, makes them not up to the job.

Sorry Northern specifiers, but there it is.



I must admit, I've found the tip-up seats quite handy on a few occasions. A benefit over other such types is that they're off-set from the doors, rather than blocking them.

The toilet issue seems to happen frequently on both 195s and 331s. I had to change to another unit last night when the train got delayed by a faulty train in front, but obviously this is not possible in a single unit. How we miss the back up of a simple toilet a la Pacer!

 

[yorksrob]

The toilet issue seems to happen frequently on both 195s and 331s. I had to change to another unit last night when the train got delayed by a faulty train in front, but obviously this is not possible in a single unit. How we miss the back up of a simple toilet a la Pacer!

Yes, at least you could still use the things even if the flush wasn't working.

They should have built something more akin to a 158 really. Lesson not learnt.

 

[John Luxton]

I made my first trip on a 195 from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street earlier this week - 195104 "DEVA VICTRIX". I had travelled out from Liverpool on a Northern 150. I actually found the 195 a pleasant experience, much quieter and brighter than the 150. Also noted the larger windows you can as in the old days before the higher window rest your elbow on the bottom of the window.

Having observed various related TFW 197s on test around Chester in recent months larger windows and the brighter interiors compared to 175s should prove quite popular on Wales' scenic routes.

 

[py_megapixel]

How we miss the back up of a simple toilet a la Pacer!

And how the permanent way staff really don't miss human waste all over the track!

 

[Bikeman78]

The toilet issue seems to happen frequently on both 195s and 331s. I had to change to another unit last night when the train got delayed by a faulty train in front, but obviously this is not possible in a single unit. How we miss the back up of a simple toilet a la Pacer!

The problem seems to be that the fuel range is greater than the toilet tank range. The class 150 toilets are defective far more frequently than they were three years ago when they dumped on the track.

 

[railfan100]

It makes an interesting comparison to sit at the end of the coach on a 195 and feel the harsh ride of the bogie; then do the same on a 158. If you close your eyes and focus on the motion and overall ride quality you would easily think the 158 was the newer unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It makes an interesting comparison to sit at the end of the coach on a 195 and feel the harsh ride of the bogie; then do the same on a 158. If you close your eyes and focus on the motion and overall ride quality you would easily think the 158 was the newer unit.

To be fair I don't think anything rides better than a 158 or ever did before it, either.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair I don't think anything rides better than a 158 or ever did before it, either.

A mk3 ?

 

[py_megapixel]

A mk3 ?

They don't have a harsh bumpy ride like the CAF stuff does, but they do wallow around enough that you feel like you're moving around in your seat somewhat. This gives a ride considerably worse than the Voyagers that share the same route, which manage to be pretty smooth even at high speed.

 

[yorksrob]

They don't have a harsh bumpy ride like the CAF stuff does, but they do wallow around enough that you feel like you're moving around in your seat somewhat. This gives a ride considerably worse than the Voyagers that share the same route, which manage to be pretty smooth even at high speed.

I beg to differ. Perhaps it's like being rocked to sleep in an armchair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A mk3 ?

Nowhere near.

 

[DustyBin]

A mk3 ?

Good but not as good as a 158. The 158/159 and Networker family are the best riding trains we have IMO. It’s almost as if they’re the pinnacle of development undertaken by people who understand the infrastructure, and the unique challenges it poses. Oh wait……

 

[wobman]

I made my first trip on a 195 from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street earlier this week - 195104 "DEVA VICTRIX". I had travelled out from Liverpool on a Northern 150. I actually found the 195 a pleasant experience, much quieter and brighter than the 150. Also noted the larger windows you can as in the old days before the higher window rest your elbow on the bottom of the window.

Having observed various related TFW 197s on test around Chester in recent months larger windows and the brighter interiors compared to 175s should prove quite popular on Wales' scenic routes.

I've got the impression many people have made there minds up on the civicity fleets in a negative way, so it's good to hear some positive comments on them.
Having travelled on them myself I'm pleasantly surprised how nice they are, the ride isn't as good as 158s but the civicitys offer a more modern and better experience in my view.
Things such as Air con that actually works, in the winter they have heating that work. The PIS systems are a huge improvement over the 158s, the civicitys are faster and much better for the environment.
The Northern 195s seem to be running around OK as are the 331, wmt 196s have started there testing and the 197s are out testing and traincrew training. So civicitys will be a regular sight around the network in the north.

 

[yorksrob]

Good but not as good as a 158. The 158/159 and Networker family are the best riding trains we have IMO. It’s almost as if they’re the pinnacle of development undertaken by people who understand the infrastructure, and the unique challenges it poses. Oh wait……

Given that the 158/9's mostly have multiple toilets, they were also designed by people who understand the human bladder as well !

 

[Neptune]

Given that the 158/9's mostly have multiple toilets, they were also designed by people who understand the human bladder as well !

The 158/9 sub class only has 1 toilet.

 

[Grumpy Git]

You know you're going to have a good day when a 158 turns up instead of a 156, unfortunately the opposite is also true!

 

[AM9]

You know you're going to have a good day when a 158 turns up instead of a 156, unfortunately the opposite is also true!

So you also have a good day when a 156 turns up in place of a 158?

 

[py_megapixel]

I beg to differ. Perhaps it's like being rocked to sleep in an armchair.

Might I suggest that there is a bit of a "rose-tinted spectacles" aspect with that comment...

 

[AM9]

Might I suggest that there is a bit of a "rose-tinted spectacles" aspect with that comment...

It seems that some in my age group just long for their rail(way?) travel experience to being swaddled and gently rocked right next to a convenient toilet. Maybe the TOCs should offer a travelling nanny service for some Senior Railcard holders.

 

[Wolfie]

It seems that some in my age group just long for their rail(way?) travel experience to being swaddled and gently rocked right next to a convenient toilet. Maybe the TOCs should offer a travelling nanny service for some Senior Railcard holders.

..... and for the rolling stock to be the same as when they were a toddler....

 

[railfan100]

Agree with comments that 158 units are probably the best on the network. Saying that the 195 ride quality feels like it was designed by someone on an apprenticeship scheme. When sitting close to the bogie is is quite poor. Even first generation units designed in the 50s with leaf spring design as part of the bogies have a better ride. All of the second generation DMU vehicles such as 15x class are in a different league when it comes to ride quality. The 195 units should never have been accepted in service with the current ride dynamics.

 

[AM9]

Agree with comments that 158 units are probably the best on the network. Saying that the 195 ride quality feels like it was designed by someone on an apprenticeship scheme. When sitting close to the bogie is is quite poor. Even first generation units designed in the 50s with leaf spring design as part of the bogies have a better ride. All of the second generation DMU vehicles such as 15x class are in a different league when it comes to ride quality. The 195 units should never have been accepted in service with the current ride dynamics.

I think their inappropriate acceptance into service was a consequence of Northern/DfT's desperate to appease some passengers by bringing in a shiny new train.

 

[DustyBin]

So you also have a good day when a 156 turns up in place of a 158?

I like the 156 as well to be honest. Especially on a hot day with the windows open, and on a suitable route (i.e. not a peak Manchester suburban service!).