195s truly awful, not a step forward

[yorksrob]

My observation of P17 is that at least one of the stoppers (Knottingley or Sheffield) are 158s now, while the semi-fasts are 195s (having been 158s, or sometimes a 150).

The Hallam stopper is usually a 158 now (sometimes a 150).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Let the engineers decide where the pantographs need to be but involve passengers Traincrew in deciding on the most suitable internal layout.

Of course it would be far too much common sense to involve first hand operationally experienced staff in advising how a train should be laid out….

 

[wobman]

Of course it would be far too much common sense to involve first hand operationally experienced staff in advising how a train should be laid out….

Traincrew don't even get consulted on driving cab designs, we sit there all day but it's baffling how drivers get no say in the design process. Plus when faults are pointed out we have to fight to resolve issues.....

 

[northwichcat]

Of course it would be far too much common sense to involve first hand operationally experienced staff in advising how a train should be laid out….

I wasn't implying the passengers should decide how the driving cab is designed. Just that they should be involved in the spec for the interior once the technical aspects have been decided on. From my experience train crews don't go around asking passengers questions like:
1. Would you rather have a better view from the seat even if the chance of having to stand on busier services is higher?
2. Would you rather have a softer seat back even if it reduces the amount of leg room?
3. If you are standing would you rather have poles or grab handles to hold on to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't implying the passengers should decide how the driving cab is designed. Just that they should be involved in the spec for the interior once the technical aspects have been decided on. From my experience train crews don't go around asking passengers questions like:
1. Would you rather have a better view from the seat even if the chance of having to stand on busier services is higher?
2. Would you rather have a softer seat back even if it reduces the amount of leg room?
3. If you are standing would you rather have poles or grab handles to hold on to?

But most importantly - hello Mr Ford Focus* Driver, why didn't you take the train?

The railway (buses too) is terrible at looking inside when it needs to look outside.

* Other incredibly average hatchback cars are available.

 

[Moonshot]

Of course it would be far too much common sense to involve first hand operationally experienced staff in advising how a train should be laid out….

ASLEF reps spent a few days at the Spanish factory inspecting a mock up cab, and recommended some changes

 

[northwichcat]

But most importantly - hello Mr Ford Focus* Driver, why didn't you take the train?

The railway (buses too) is terrible at looking inside when it needs to look outside.

* Other incredibly average hatchback cars are available.

My work team is based remotely in different locations so when face-to-face meetings happen they occur in cities where almost everyone arrives by train, even people who normally don't get the train. It's also easier to expense a train journey as the value of the ticket is the amount you get back. So you could ask these people why do they only catch the train when they are travelling to London or another city.

As I reported in another post the dispatcher at Stockport wasn't interested when 10 people from a delayed Northern service wanted to board the London train, he'd signalled to close the doors so the passengers had to wait. That's the kind of thing that prevents business travellers becoming leisure travellers.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I have no idea why some people have such an issue with the 195s. Are they perfect? No, but I travelled on them from the day they were introduced and I think it is the only time I’ve heard normal passengers sound excited when boarding a train. Not just one either. Except for the ride quality they are superior to Northern’s 158s and infinitely superior to anything else Northern operates on the west side.

 

[Watershed]

I have no idea why some people have such an issue with the 195s. Are they perfect? No, but I travelled on them from the day they were introduced and I think it is the only time I’ve heard normal passengers sound excited when boarding a train. Not just one either. Except for the ride quality they are superior to Northern’s 158s and infinitely superior to anything else Northern operates on the west side.

They are brand new units and, being amongst the last diesel units to be built, they will be in service for a long time. Possibly as long as the 150s. Passengers are quite entitled to expect a quality product in all respects, not just an improvement in some areas but a downgrade in others.

It really would not have cost the earth to get it right. It's really says it all about the industry's attention to detail when a product which was capable of being a massive leap forward - as the Stadler Flirts were in GA-lans - were merely a modest improvement.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Except they are not merely a modest improvement. The ride quality if sat over the bogies is poor. If you're not sat over the bogies it is fine. Pretty much everything else is pretty decent and a huge improvement on what went before and anybody who wants great luxury on their daily commute from Bolton - Manchester should save their pennies and buy a Bentley. Expecting a superb train on most of Northern's routes is just ridiculous.

 

[trover]

Almost every journey I had started or ended with a 195. The seats are ok - although rock hard, they're in good shape that don't cause me pain which is an important element for seats on public transport - they don't need to be comfortable (comfortable seats are of course preferred if there are sufficient space for capacity but we all know the reality is trains are short and space is limited), but to fit the majority of body sizes and not make passengers feel uncomfortable.

The problem is with the suspension of the train. Not passing through junction, 195 at speed can shake (way stronger than vibrate) continuously for like 15 seconds as if we are going to derail. If my subsequent train is a 158 it's really easy to tell the difference esp. if the 158 has old style seats installed. The fix for 195 IMO is to replace the seat cushion with those which is thicker and has better ability to absorb vibration, instead of anything to deal with the mechanical stuff as it'd be costy.

 

[Fisherman80]

The plus points to the 195s compared to a 158 are obviously a higher top speed,better disabled access and better acceleration........but that is where it ends.
It's only my opinion,but the 3 car 158s are the best of the Northern fleet. The only thing that let's the 2 car versions down are the seats and in the case of the ex West Yorkshire 158s,having one toilet per unit.
The 195s are here to stay so how do you improve them?
Better seats for a start.
Fitting an extra toilet per coach........who on earth thought it was a good idea to have one toilet on a 3 coach unit.
Heavily modifying the bogies. Whilst a 15x unit can "glide" over points and jointed track,a 195 seems to "hit" any type of track that's less than perfect.
All the above work would inevitably cost money,but if the above improvements were made the 195s would be great trains.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I see that the 03.37 LIV-MIA and subsequent return is a 195 running under wires for its entirety. Anyone know why it's not a 331?

 

[MP393]

I see that the 03.37 LIV-MIA and subsequent return is a 195 running under wires for its entirety. Anyone know why it's not a 331?

Because every week or so it runs via Hunts Cross due to engineering blockades, so it’s easier to diagram it a 195 to save swapping it every time it’s rerouted

 

[507020]

Can we please have a general consensus on “Is the ride quality of a 195/331 superior to that of a 142/144?” since that is all that matters about them. There are definitely more possible journeys where passengers previously found Pacers and now find 195s and 331s than there are services where they have been directly replaced. It seems there is already a consensus that 195s are inferior to 158s, but of course the 158s possess the pinnacle of BREL bogie designs. 195s might have cheap Spanish bogies unsuitable for British track, but 14x vehicles didn’t have bogies at all, which must have made them much worse surely?

I see that the 03.37 LIV-MIA and subsequent return is a 195 running under wires for its entirety. Anyone know why it's not a 331?

I went on the first Manchester Airport - Lime Street service one day this week and found that not only was it a 195, it had been reupholstered with proper moquette throughout, just a few millimetres of which made an unbelievably significant improvement to the amount of seat padding and overall comfort.

I actually found the ride quality on them via Chat Moss quite good, which must say more about the track condition than the 195s. There was also a smooth ride to be had on the CLC line when I went on it previously. It was on the WCML when going to Windermere that the ride became truly unbearable. It may be better to go on a Pendolino as far as Oxenholme.

 

[AM9]

Can we please have a general consensus on “Is the ride quality of a 195/331 superior to that of a 142/144?” since that is all that matters about them. There are definitely more possible journeys where passengers previously found Pacers and now find 195s and 331s than there are services where they have been directly replaced. It seems there is already a consensus that 195s are inferior to 158s, but of course the 158s possess the pinnacle of BREL bogie designs. 195s might have cheap Spanish bogies unsuitable for British track, but 14x vehicles didn’t have bogies at all, which must have made them much worse surely?

Why are there so many trying to justify the ride quality of the 195s/331s as them being better than Pacers that have delivered 35+ years of service. They should be compared against their peers, i.e. equivalent designs from Siemens and Bombardier which run all over UK metals without the CAF 'shake, rattle and roll'. If BR could design acceptable bogies in the 'late eighties, why can't CAF even do as well in the 20 teens? This apologist argument saying that they are at least better than Pacers shows either a lack of ambition or no experience of anything better.

 

[Phlip]

But most importantly - hello Mr Ford Focus* Driver, why didn't you take the train?

The railway (buses too) is terrible at looking inside when it needs to look outside.

* Other incredibly average hatchback cars are available.

Hi Bletchleyite,

1) Because, depending on the destination, taking the train takes ages compared to the car (to York: Car = 50 minutes, Train = 2 hours)
2) It costs way more to take the family out on the train than it does the car (to York: Car = £20 petrol & parking, Train = £45.50 Anytime Short Distance Returns with Family Railcard plus parking at the station)*
3) My destination does not have good rail/public transport access
4) The on board environment can be terrible (especially unpleasant and incredibly noisy on the 155s we get around here. Happy with the 170s though).

On the other hand we quite like not having to drive.

* There are fixed costs associated with car ownership but I'm paying them either way so they're not considered. With forward planning Advance tickets bring the train price down but forward planning for a day out in York doesn't normally happen plus you loose any flexibility, which you don't with the car.

 

[507 001]

I find it really weird that the 331s ride considerably better than the 195s. Same bogie but lighter weight which to me would result in the opposite effect?

The Mk5s on the other hand are even worse! The ride on the TPE ones through Parkside junction is enough to remove the fillings from your teeth!

 

[AM9]

I find it really weird that the 331s ride considerably better than the 195s. Same bogie but lighter weight which to me would result in the opposite effect?

The Mk5s on the other hand are even worse! The ride on the TPE ones through Parkside junction is enough to remove the fillings from your teeth!

And the 397s aren't that clever - nice interiors, shame about the ride.

 

[507 001]

And the 397s aren't that clever.

Haven’t been on one yet but I’m not surprised by your statement.

 

[yorksrob]

The plus points to the 195s compared to a 158 are obviously a higher top speed,better disabled access and better acceleration........but that is where it ends.
It's only my opinion,but the 3 car 158s are the best of the Northern fleet. The only thing that let's the 2 car versions down are the seats and in the case of the ex West Yorkshire 158s,having one toilet per unit.
The 195s are here to stay so how do you improve them?
Better seats for a start.
Fitting an extra toilet per coach........who on earth thought it was a good idea to have one toilet on a 3 coach unit.
Heavily modifying the bogies. Whilst a 15x unit can "glide" over points and jointed track,a 195 seems to "hit" any type of track that's less than perfect.
All the above work would inevitably cost money,but if the above improvements were made the 195s would be great trains.

The best way to improve the 2 carriage ones would be to build a centre carriage with a toilet !

 

[NewClee153]

I have no idea why some people have such an issue with the 195s. Are they perfect? No, but I travelled on them from the day they were introduced and I think it is the only time I’ve heard normal passengers sound excited when boarding a train. Not just one either. Except for the ride quality they are superior to Northern’s 158s and infinitely superior to anything else Northern operates on the west side.

Mainly because I get a better ride quality on nearly 40 year old stock than them. They’re supposed to be a step forward from the pacers, but I’d be surprised if they lasted as long

 

[northwichcat]

Mainly because I get a better ride quality on nearly 40 year old stock than them. They’re supposed to be a step forward from the pacers, but I’d be surprised if they lasted as long

I imagine few people expected Pacers to last over 30 years. They looked life expired before they reached their 20th birthday.

 

[NewClee153]

I imagine few people expected Pacers to last over 30 years. They looked life expired before they reached their 20th birthday.

Given the build and ride quality of the 195s that I’ve ridden, 20 years would be an achievement

 

[AM9]

Given the build and ride quality of the 195s that I’ve ridden, 20 years would be an achievement

Yup! Buy cheap, buy twice.

 

[Meole]

Yup! Buy cheap, buy twice.

Thats the franchise model.

 

[RT4038]

But most importantly - hello Mr Ford Focus* Driver, why didn't you take the train?

The railway (buses too) is terrible at looking inside when it needs to look outside.

* Other incredibly average hatchback cars are available.

To be fair though, there is only a certain amount that the railway (or buses) can practically/economically do.

The private motor car provides such a step change in convenience for most people that public transport is just never going to match (for most journeys) due to inherent features - it is much like candle manufacturers trying to convince electricity users to return to their product for anything apart from fairly niche use.

 

[Bikeman78]

They're definitely a step up from a 142.

Being better than a battered 35 year old train that wasn't great in the first place is hardly something to be proud of!

Expecting a superb train on most of Northern's routes is just ridiculous.

Why is that? All the local routes around Norwich have superb trains. The same will soon apply to various routes out of Cardiff.

As regards being excited to board a train, I've seen/heard numerous students at Cambridge excited about a class 317! Clearly there is a broad range of opinions amongst the general public.

 

[SteveM70]

Expecting a superb train on most of Northern's routes is just ridiculous

Why? Don’t us northern oiks deserve them?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Expecting a superb train on most of Northern's routes is just ridiculous.

Northern is currently one of the fastest growing parts of the railway - arguably, it needs superb trains more than any of the South East franchises.

This thinking was what the SRA had when it let the 2004 franchise - and it needs to go.

Will say I find the 195s more comfortable than a 377...