1992 stock Refurbishment?

[100andthirty]

The power supply on the LU sections is known as a floating system. The figures quoted.....+500V, -250V are nominal values which would be measured using a volt meter connected between one or other of the power rails and an earthed running rail (but please don't try to do this!). These values are determined by high value resistors connected between a current rail to earth. The resistance between positive and earth has twice the value of the resistance in the negative leg. These resistors help the system to detect earth faults. For example, if there was a negative earth fault the voltage relative to earth would be approx -700V, the system would notice and the control operators would be notified. All the train sees is 750V (or 600V) nominal between the current rails. And remember, these values are nominal. The standards governing all this allows voltage swings of +/- 25%. + 25% is the margin that enables regenerative braking, and for legacy reasons, LU expects trains to continue to operate if the voltage falls to 450V.

 

[Recessio]

The power supply on the LU sections is known as a floating system. The figures quoted.....+500V, -250V are nominal values which would be measured using a volt meter connected between one or other of the power rails and an earthed running rail (but please don't try to do this!). These values are determined by high value resistors connected between a current rail to earth. The resistance between positive and earth has twice the value of the resistance in the negative leg. These resistors help the system to detect earth faults. For example, if there was a negative earth fault the voltage relative to earth would be approx -700V, the system would notice and the control operators would be notified. All the train sees is 750V (or 600V) nominal between the current rails. And remember, these values are nominal. The standards governing all this allows voltage swings of +/- 25%. + 25% is the margin that enables regenerative braking, and for legacy reasons, LU expects trains to continue to operate if the voltage falls to 450V.

Thank you for the informative post! Is this also the case on the LU owned sections that also have NR trains? Or do NR trains operate at different voltages? Thinking of the Bakerloo and District branches shared with London Overground (and I think a few SWR services go fast along the Wimbledon branch?)

 

[Mojo]

Thank you for the informative post! Is this also the case on the LU owned sections that also have NR trains? Or do NR trains operate at different voltages? Thinking of the Bakerloo and District branches shared with London Overground (and I think a few SWR services go fast along the Wimbledon branch?)

Bakerloo north of Queens Park, and Richmond branches are all NR owned and operated. Wimbledon is LU owned but power is controlled and supplied by NR. Only other LU track which has NR passenger trains is Chiltern beyond Harrow, which are diesel only.

 

[stuu]

The sections shared with NR EMUs have the third rail at (nominal) 660/750V, with the fourth rail at 0V, to enable non-fourth rail EMUs to operate.

 

[100andthirty]

Thank you for the informative post! Is this also the case on the LU owned sections that also have NR trains? Or do NR trains operate at different voltages? Thinking of the Bakerloo and District branches shared with London Overground (and I think a few SWR services go fast along the Wimbledon branch?)

The sections shared with SWR and Overground trains (TOC trains) are slightly different. The TOC trains are third rail as all probably know which means power is collected from the third rail and returned though the running rails. the fourth rail provided for the LU trains in these areas is electrically bonded to earth. There is a short section (longer than the longest pair of electrically connected shoes) to make sure the floating and negative earth sections are kept separate. This includes, in some instances, specially isolated and independently earthed sections of running rails.

 

[slicedbread]

I've got a voltage question about the Waterloo and City.

A chap on Secrets of the London Underground, I think he was a W&C depot manager, was saying how W&C was 750v on account of its origin with the mainline.

Does that mean when they introduced the 1992 stock it had to be modified to 750v and when they added the 4th rail to the W&C was it set up using +500V, -250v split, or as it was 3rd rail when it had the class 487s is it 750V, 0V?

 

[Goldfish62]

I've got a voltage question about the Waterloo and City.

A chap on Secrets of the London Underground, I think he was a W&C depot manager, was saying how W&C was 750v on account if its origin with the mainline.

Does that mean when they introduced the 1992 stock it had to be modified to 750v and when the added the 4th rail to the W&C was it set up using +500V, -250v split, or as it was 3rd rail when it had the class 487s is it 750V, 0V?

I was wondering exactly the same!

 

[100andthirty]

I can't say for certain, but I do recall that long after LU took over, the power still came from the Network Rail supply. As such I doubt that it's floating earth and suspect that negative rail is earthed.

 

[Recessio]

Any update on this? I haven't seen any of the refurbished units in person, are they in service yet?

 

[bramling]

I can't say for certain, but I do recall that long after LU took over, the power still came from the Network Rail supply. As such I doubt that it's floating earth and suspect that negative rail is earthed.

It was supplied from NR Waterloo substation. However at some point I believe a new substation was constructed in the depot.

 

[Dstock7080]

Any update on this? I haven't seen any of the refurbished units in person, are they in service yet?

Not in service yet.
First interior refurbished train has returned to Acton Works for fitting of its AC motors.

 

[setdown]

Has cosmetic maintenance stopped on the 1992 stock, waiting for refurbs to take place? They do seem to be in exceptionally poor state internally these days.

 

[321over360]

Has cosmetic maintenance stopped on the 1992 stock, waiting for refurbs to take place? They do seem to be in exceptionally poor state internally these days.

Since their introduction the 1992 stock has never really been properly looked after by LU at all which given their constant years of neglect is surprising how they are lasting so well however after travelling on one yesterday I didn't find them in any worse condition than when I used to daily commute on them, the only thing I hate is the horrid barman moquette. The original one suited the trains much more than that awful blue

 

[Goldfish62]

the only thing I hate is the horrid barman moquette. The original one suited the trains much more than that awful blue

Yes, I hate the Barman moquette. It looks faded and dirty so quickly. The Bakerloo and Piccadilly variants are at least a minor improvement.

 

[bakerstreet]

Yesterday I made a journey from Waterloo to Epping.

Service on both Waterloo & City and Central both running well.

But every time I make this journey, it always highlights the stark contrast of essentially the same trains.

Waterloo & City : windows not etched, armrests between seats, properly supported seats (springs or whatever used are either new or much much less worn)
Posters and map areas in good condition.
Floors undamaged. Presentation excellent.

The whole ambiance on the W&C is many many times better than the Central stock.

I know why this is the case, the W&C has a much greater chance of remaining newer, but the state of the Central stock is very sad to see.

The Central no longer seems to have its anti window etching film replaced, some have out of date signage, the floors are buckling, the vents let in the rain, the seats need redoing (some have very little support at all).

I do accept that there are huge financial difficulties for TfL which may be the reason for the above.

Much of the above is not the stuff of a heavy overhaul, you’d hope it’s part of a basic protocol of traincare.

I do find the presentation of stations on the Central to be mostly excellent

 

[Snow1964]

Per TfL Board Programmes and Investment Committee papers there is update on dates

Table 6.3
Central line Improvement Programme – First train into service 26/02/23 on target

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s18775/pic-20221019-item11-part1-LU%20Train%20Systems.pdf

 

[321over360]

Yesterday I made a journey from Waterloo to Epping.

Service on both Waterloo & City and Central both running well.

But every time I make this journey, it always highlights the stark contrast of essentially the same trains.

Waterloo & City : windows not etched, armrests between seats, properly supported seats (springs or whatever used are either new or much much less worn)
Posters and map areas in good condition.
Floors undamaged. Presentation excellent.

The whole ambiance on the W&C is many many times better than the Central stock.

I know why this is the case, the W&C has a much greater chance of remaining newer, but the state of the Central stock is very sad to see.

The Central no longer seems to have its anti window etching film replaced, some have out of date signage, the floors are buckling, the vents let in the rain, the seats need redoing (some have very little support at all).

I do accept that there are huge financial difficulties for TfL which may be the reason for the above.

Much of the above is not the stuff of a heavy overhaul, you’d hope it’s part of a basic protocol of traincare.

I do find the presentation of stations on the Central to be mostly excellent

Central Line is a busier route and operates daily, the Waterloo and city is a smaller fleet that is easier to manage any seating issues as its only 5 trains compared to 85 on the Central Line

The Central Line also runs through rougher areas hence why the windows are likely to be vandalised more than the W&C units.

In regards to armrests, the Central Line fleet originally had them, however again due to where the trains operate they were a target for vandals given how easy they were to break hence why they were removed from the entire Central Line fleet.

You gotta remember the w&C trains had a major refurbishment done to them back in 2006 I think unlike the Central line which only saw minor cosmetic work done for the Olympics, including the extra seals outside the windows (the w&c fleet does not have them), this is why the fleets look in different states, the Central line fleet has been repeatedly neglected however hopefully the refurbishment may see the trains look somewhat better, however a full paintjob needs to be done on the trains, especially where the doors are as the beige paintwork has come off. There are also rubber seals missing on the window panels behind the perch seats at the ends of the carriages

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, I hate the Barman moquette. It looks faded and dirty so quickly. The Bakerloo and Piccadilly variants are at least a minor improvement.

I must say I personally find the Bakerloo moquette very drab and depressing. Brown and grey aren't great for seats.

(No offence intended to yourself.)

 

[Goldfish62]

I must say I personally find the Bakerloo moquette very drab and depressing. Brown and grey aren't great for seats.

(No offence intended to yourself.)

Yes, it is pretty drab, somehow in keeping with everything to do with the line!

 

[Chriso]

As a daily user I do agree they are pretty bad currently with some sets appearing to be held together with thick grey gaffer tape and flooring with Selotape holding sections together. Compared to other stock recently refurbished they look shocking

 

[321over360]

As a daily user I do agree they are pretty bad currently with some sets appearing to be held together with thick grey gaffer tape and flooring with Selotape holding sections together. Compared to other stock recently refurbished they look shocking

Problem with the Central Line fleet is for trains that are nearly 30 years since their introduction (1993 to 1995) the stock has never had any major works done on then yet to fix the problems with the flooring inside the trains, the outerbodies were mostly changed back before the 2012 Olympics but again not all were completed hence why some have tape over the joins in the bodywork at the ends of the cars. This is what happens when a fleet is basically left unmaintained for such a long period of time, I mean some of the internal panelling was just covered with the equivalent of DC Fix which is self adhesive stuff as a quick fix

 

[Samzino]

Seeing that It will be soon March 2023 for the first Refurbished central line stock, has anyone spotted any movement, as far as I know the unit with car 91111 is to be the first refurbished 1992 stock running?

 

[Dstock7080]

Seeing that It will be soon March 2023 for the first Refurbished central line stock, has anyone spotted any movement, as far as I know the unit with car 91111 is to be the first refurbished 1992 stock running?

Nothing yet.
A lorry load of new AC motors was delivered to Acton today, for fitting to further trains.

 

[100andthirty]

Seeing that It will be soon March 2023 for the first Refurbished central line stock, has anyone spotted any movement, as far as I know the unit with car 91111 is to be the first refurbished 1992 stock running?

I'm hearing rumours that March might be October

 

[LUYMun]

I'm hearing rumours that March might be October

Rumours will be rumours, so don't believe them until official word is spoken

 

[100andthirty]

Rumours will be rumours, so don't believe them until official word is spoken

Or.......never believe a rumour until it's officially denied!

 

[Samzino]

Nothing yet.
A lorry load of new AC motors was delivered to Acton today, for fitting to further trains.

Ah i see

 

[evanslater]

How long does it take to fit AC motors to a unit, or just a full train? Does 91111 have motors fitted, or only internal features? Or both?

 

[Dstock7080]

How long does it take to fit AC motors to a unit, or just a full train? Does 91111 have motors fitted, or only internal features? Or both?

91111 was one of the first fitted with AC motors, returning to London in April 2021.
It’s likely the first to be released from Acton will already have had the interior refurbished before recently gaining its AC motors.

 

[evanslater]

91111 was one of the first fitted with AC motors, returning to London in April 2021.
It’s likely the first to be released from Acton will already have had the interior refurbished before recently gaining its AC motors.

Okay thank you. Do you know if the timescales of the project are still on time? I saw something in October that the first train into service is meant to be either later in February or March (can’t remember the exact dates I read)