I'd imagine that latecomers might be given permission to board in first class and walk through by the guard, but - yes - otherwise it means walking (or running) along to board.
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1st Class Excuses and discussion on 1st provision
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I'd imagine that latecomers might be given permission to board in first class and walk through by the guard, but - yes - otherwise it means walking (or running) along to board.
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PermitToTravel
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Standard class passengers may board a train via, and walk through, first class. For the offence to be complete they must remain in first.
I'd be amazed if you weren't allowed to do that. Do people really get grumpy? I have often got on trains (SWT and FGW mostly I think) at the door that happens to face where I'm stood on the platform, ended up in a rammed standard area and walked through first to get a seat (or at least a leaning spot).
PermitToTravel
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I wasn't aware of it being an issue, but there was very recently a thread on the topic.
You mention walking through first to get a seat, in which case I presume that you are talking about a train with a first class compartment in the middle? In this case, absolutely may you walk through this to get to another part of the train. I don't think anybody disputes this.
Many people appear to see it as rude to walk through a first class compartment which happens to be at either end of a train. I personally don't do this to alight from a train (walking down the platform is much more pleasant), but am not at all apologetic about doing so to board a train, should that be necessary to avoid missing it.
Howardh
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How much is first class used (eg WCL Virgins) weekdays off-peak? And are they making money? Often see advance fares for first class are not much higher than standard (on one occasion an advance first was cheaper by some pounds - pity the time was inappropriate for me!).
I doubt, that weekends are profitable in first - probably in second as well.
As for use: Companies offering cheap weekend upgrades have good usage on weekends. Using companies not offering these weekend specials, I often end up being the only paying person in that coach.
That's the one. I've never had an issue doing it to be fair and as you say I'd be surprised if anyone got annoyed at it happening. I'd probably wait until anyone I that compartment had got themselves sorted and sat down as well.
I certainly wouldn't walk through a first class at the end of a train (unless rushing to get on) - the first class fare includes that 10 seconds benefit!
By reverse formation checking I meant;
When trains were in reverse form and 1st was at the front leaving paddington IF I was '2nd man' I would allow everyone to get seated and comfy and then pounce immediately the train left the platform in 1st- IME this meant at least a dozen standard season ticket holders (rarely anything else) would either red faced attempt to escape the moment they saw me or would attempt to upgrade (yes sir that'll be £xxxxx the standard FDS/FOS, I never upgraded seasons on board- that's what the ticket office is there for!).
Ok, it was possible to do this even if single manned but double manning allows a 'non standard' method of checking which catches out those using the 'normal procedure' to avoid paying for correct fares.
On the subject of 'walk through' it isn't just those trying to get off quicker that do it IME, (as reverse formation arrivals showed me many times) there's also a small number of punters who like to be 'seen' getting out of 1st class! - I kid you not!
The only time I had issues with walk through was when a full restaurant was operating - silly buggers would push past stewards trying to clear up or serving coffee- had a most irate chap one day speak to the guard about egg all down his coat - the guard simply apologised and asked for his FIRST CLASS ticket so he could make sure 'appropriate compensation' could be considered!
The gent showed a STD season and went off with a flea in his ear about not supposed to be allowed in there (1st) in any case hence the complaint wasn't valid!
When trains were in reverse form and 1st was at the front leaving paddington IF I was '2nd man' I would allow everyone to get seated and comfy and then pounce immediately the train left the platform in 1st- IME this meant at least a dozen standard season ticket holders (rarely anything else) would either red faced attempt to escape the moment they saw me or would attempt to upgrade (yes sir that'll be £xxxxx the standard FDS/FOS, I never upgraded seasons on board- that's what the ticket office is there for!).
Ok, it was possible to do this even if single manned but double manning allows a 'non standard' method of checking which catches out those using the 'normal procedure' to avoid paying for correct fares.
On the subject of 'walk through' it isn't just those trying to get off quicker that do it IME, (as reverse formation arrivals showed me many times) there's also a small number of punters who like to be 'seen' getting out of 1st class! - I kid you not!
The only time I had issues with walk through was when a full restaurant was operating - silly buggers would push past stewards trying to clear up or serving coffee- had a most irate chap one day speak to the guard about egg all down his coat - the guard simply apologised and asked for his FIRST CLASS ticket so he could make sure 'appropriate compensation' could be considered!
The gent showed a STD season and went off with a flea in his ear about not supposed to be allowed in there (1st) in any case hence the complaint wasn't valid!
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On a similar note, I remember reading a story from British Rail days about a service from Paddington to the West Country which ran non stop from Paddington to Plymouth, with a stop for picking up only at Reading.
Some commuters to Reading were quite used to using this service to travel from Paddington to Reading, therefore denying a seat for the longer distance passenger for whom the train was intended.
So one evening, British Rail made some alternative arrangements for passengers who wanted to board the service from Reading and ran the train non stop from Paddington to Plymouth. The look on the faces of the season ticket holders when they were asked for an excess fare to Plymouth, plus the realisation that they would have to get back to Reading at their own expense, was apparently quite something to behold.
Some commuters to Reading were quite used to using this service to travel from Paddington to Reading, therefore denying a seat for the longer distance passenger for whom the train was intended.
So one evening, British Rail made some alternative arrangements for passengers who wanted to board the service from Reading and ran the train non stop from Paddington to Plymouth. The look on the faces of the season ticket holders when they were asked for an excess fare to Plymouth, plus the realisation that they would have to get back to Reading at their own expense, was apparently quite something to behold.
Marton
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When some morning peak EC trains were 'set down only' at Stevenage (GNER days I think) I remember one guard announcing that the passengers boarding there faced a full single fare from York.
Didn't see anyone being charged in my carriage.
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Bishopstone
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I've been a First Class season ticket holder for a few years, on Southern/GatEx, and have therefore overheard many passenger conversations with RPIs/Conductors.
I think the top three excuses by number have been:
3. I didn't know it was First Class.
2. I have a bad back/am feeling ill, and there weren't any other seats.
1. There weren't any other seats.
When caught, the 'I'm only going one stop' line is often wheeled-out, which strikes me as a fairly feeble excuse. Certainly, people seem to feel hard done by when checked by RPI between Victoria and Clapham Junction, as though that short hop should be a free-for-all.
One novel 'excuse' I heard was 'I don't believe in the class system'.
I sympathise with revenue staff when they encounter pregnant ladies, or those claiming to be pregnant. There is a Priority Seat scheme in Standard on Southern, but I've seen a few with 'baby on board' badges who make a beeline for First. They are generally allowed to stay, with words of advice about the Priority Seat scheme, or otherwise asking the Conductor before taking a seat in First. (I do not, by the way, think heavily pregnant ladies should have to stand on busy trains, before anyone goes on the attack.)
I think the top three excuses by number have been:
3. I didn't know it was First Class.
2. I have a bad back/am feeling ill, and there weren't any other seats.
1. There weren't any other seats.
When caught, the 'I'm only going one stop' line is often wheeled-out, which strikes me as a fairly feeble excuse. Certainly, people seem to feel hard done by when checked by RPI between Victoria and Clapham Junction, as though that short hop should be a free-for-all.
One novel 'excuse' I heard was 'I don't believe in the class system'.
I sympathise with revenue staff when they encounter pregnant ladies, or those claiming to be pregnant. There is a Priority Seat scheme in Standard on Southern, but I've seen a few with 'baby on board' badges who make a beeline for First. They are generally allowed to stay, with words of advice about the Priority Seat scheme, or otherwise asking the Conductor before taking a seat in First. (I do not, by the way, think heavily pregnant ladies should have to stand on busy trains, before anyone goes on the attack.)
STEVIEBOY1
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It must be horrible and so embarrassing to get caught either without a ticket at all, or being in 1st when you should be in standard, or being on the wrong train on an apex type ticket etc. I suppose the ticket inspectors can tell when an excuse is genuine or if he is being fed a tall-story. Mind you some passengers I think have a real nerve, especially when they are clearly in the wrong but still try to bluff it out or get away with it.
It must be even worse if the culprit gets thrown off the train or fined or prosecuted. (Do many cases get to court?) I used to get annoyed years ago at school when getting shouted at/told off by the prefects/teachers etc, even more annoying if I was given detention/lines/sent to the headmaster etc., so being done without a ticket would be dreadful.
I would say that perhaps the use of the yellow band on 1st class carriages could be bought back again rather more than it is now, although it's pretty obvious when you get in the train which is 1st and which is standard class.
It must be even worse if the culprit gets thrown off the train or fined or prosecuted. (Do many cases get to court?) I used to get annoyed years ago at school when getting shouted at/told off by the prefects/teachers etc, even more annoying if I was given detention/lines/sent to the headmaster etc., so being done without a ticket would be dreadful.
I would say that perhaps the use of the yellow band on 1st class carriages could be bought back again rather more than it is now, although it's pretty obvious when you get in the train which is 1st and which is standard class.
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Actually I moved a lady into 1st once - she was very noticeably pregnant and looked most uncomfortable stood up
In e coach.
I said (loudly) to her (the coach really!) ' do you mean to say no one has given up a seat for you??!!
Come with me into 1st 'I'll find YOU a seat'.
A few red faces in e that evening!
In e coach.
I said (loudly) to her (the coach really!) ' do you mean to say no one has given up a seat for you??!!
Come with me into 1st 'I'll find YOU a seat'.
A few red faces in e that evening!
I was on a busy tube in summer when a lady fainted. A bloke in a suit next to her looked up form his paper as if to say "how dare you interrupt my perusing of the share prices" and went back into his shell; everyone else sorted of looked away. It was down to me and an old boy in a blazer and regimental tie who came leaping across the carriage to sort her out.
Needless to say I asked the bloke in the suit to shift his arse so she could sit down.
Your post struck a chord with me because my wife and I made exactly that mistake when changing at Clapham Jcn onto a Southern train for Gatwick. The train was rammed but where we got on, the end compartment had two odd seats left empty. I asked the two others in the lobby did they want them and they just shook their heads absently.
After a while, well beyond Croydon, I suddenly noticed a sign saying first, so we hurriedly bundled out of there.
The point is, the Southern accommodation - first or second, was so crappy, I defy any casual traveller not to have erred as we did. A rammed train is just a tip on that line.
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I remember one fellow who said he "didn't know" whether or not his ticket was Standard or First Class. He was standing in the crew area on a 91, waiting to depart KGX, looking nervously around the cabin. Of course he may well not have known but something tells me he knew full well!
Yeah, the people constantly looking over the shoulder are usually a bit of a giveaway.
It seems odd that you'd upgrade yourself to first class, but then have to keep looking for a guard/RPI for the whole time. Seems quite a stressful position to put yourself in, and therefore rather pointless.
But people still do it.
It seems odd that you'd upgrade yourself to first class, but then have to keep looking for a guard/RPI for the whole time. Seems quite a stressful position to put yourself in, and therefore rather pointless.
But people still do it.
OuterDistant
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"I'd much rather see a pregnant woman standing up on a bus, than a fat girl sitting down, crying."
- Jimmy Carr
trainophile
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Morally of course he should have gone to help the lady, but he was not under any obligation to do so, and had presumably paid for his own ticket, so I'm dubious as to the authority with which he could be asked (or told, as it sounds) to give up his seat.
The woman might have fainted because she had not eaten, which I understand often causes this sort of occurrence, in which case it was her own fault.
Are guards allowed to turf legit passengers out of non-priority seats in a situation like this?
bunnahabhain
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There is no authority to remove anybody from a seat because you don't know whether they need it for a disability reason or not. Priority seats rely upon the person sat in them to decide whether they need the seat or not.
kevconnor
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Personal response would have been: "Oh sorry I didn't recognise you from that end."
trainophile
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We have to assume that the suited bloke in question was not occupying a priority seat (which I only mentioned as it might have swayed the judgement call if it had been). So it seems you agree that in this instance afyutr, who is presumably a guard/TM, was on unsafe ground if he tried to insist that this particular chap gave up his seat for the lady.
It would be nice if younger, fit people automatically offered their seat to someone in distress, but in real life it doesn't seem to happen these days, so my question was about the authority of the train staff to enforce some random passenger to give up a seat that they are perfectly entitled to occupy. They might not like the passenger's manner (or lack of manners) but that isn't grounds for selecting them for seat eviction!
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Bishopstone
Established Member
It's not an ideal situation, where the difference between First and Standard on many 377 units amounts to a couple of window stickers and anti-macassars on the headrests: and sometimes even these get removed/stolen.
The position is complicated further in the Metro area, where 377s operate many services without First Class availability. On such trains, it is perfectly legitimate to sit in 'First' with a Standard ticket.
So yes, Southern First Class can be a honey trap for the RPIs.
At Clapham Junction, though, there is a herd mentality. Even on 12-car services, most of those boarding at CJ try to do so via the doors nearest the bottom of the stairs, then proceed to moan about the lack of seats in Standard rather than walking through a couple of coaches towards the back.
Bus drivers in London are specifically instructed that they cannot force able-bodied passengers to vacate the wheelchair space, even if it means that the wheelchair user cannot board the bus and has to be left behind at the bus stop. I would not be surprised if underground staff had similar instructions.
(The relevant instruction is on page 43 of this document).
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185143
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Something like that happened to me last week. I was on a Virgin Train from Euston heading back up north. We departed Euston late because of 2 door failures in our coach, on the platform side. The TM came into our coach and told us all that we would have to move out of the coach for safety reasons. We were then told to take a seat in coach G.
In the middle of the Coach there were 2 baskets. One was full of cans of Pepsi. The other was full of VT's 'Little box of treats' or whatever they call it.(It was weekend First). Most people in the coach did help themselves to the drinks and snacks. We weren't told whether we were entitled or not, but there was an announcement at one point apologising for the lack of First Class Service, but drinks and snacks were located in the middle of the coach.
My question is whether we were actually entitled to the refreshments?
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Don't Wheelchair users take priority by law though?
I think the point was, if HSTs were reversed, with standard at the London end, the coach nearest the concourse would be the TGS, which only has a passenger door at the "inner" end. That's mean the first available passenger door would be some 20 metres further away than in the current configuration.
What is the legal basis for such a charge?
Surely if the TOC carries you from Stevenage to King's Cross the Stevenage to King's Cross fare should apply, irrespective of whether the stop was 'set down only'?
There isn't a fare for Stevenage to Kings Cross for that service, as it shouldn't pick up passengers there.
bunnahabhain
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I've highlighted the above simply because its an observation and assumption that said person is fit enough to be able to stand. Byelaws might give me the authority to do a lot of things, but it isn't permissible or acceptable any more to tell somebody to vacate a seat simply because somebody is ill, pregnant, unable to stand or whatever. Disability can take many forms and it may not be obvious, for example that young, fit, healthy looking 20 year old might have multiple sclerosis and may be unable to stand on the train, but first impressions say he's young, fit, and he should stand for this 70 year old man/lady who underneath their huge woollen jumper could be a bodybuilder or skydiver.
Assumptions cannot be made to demand or force anybody to vacate a seat, they can be requested to vacate the seat, but if they decline then nothing else can force them out of it because they may have a need or reason to use that seat.
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That would be discriminatory. Disabled people have equal rights.
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