2 stage rail trip - what if first train is late?

[Zebsmattz]

Hi,

First post, please be gentle!

Travelling from Bristol to Newcastle, I am considering "splitting" the journey.
So I would travel Bristol - London, then London - Newcastle.
The reasoning is I could get a nice first class ticket on the London - Newcastle part .
Another part of the reasoning is I find the East Coast mainline more reliable than cross country.

So the question is: What if the first train is late, and I miss the second train?

Thanks in advance,

Zebs

 

[AlterEgo]

As long as you leave the minimum connection time between the two journeys, you may take the next available train operated by VTEC if your first train is delayed.

The minimum connection time between London Paddington and King's Cross is between 45 and 55 minutes depending on the time of day.

 

[NSEFAN]

Do you have a link to a table of minimum transfer times? I wasn't aware that the recommended times changed throughout the day.

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

First post, please be gentle!

Travelling from Bristol to Newcastle, I am considering "splitting" the journey.
So I would travel Bristol - London, then London - Newcastle.
The reasoning is I could get a nice first class ticket on the London - Newcastle part .
Another part of the reasoning is I find the East Coast mainline more reliable than cross country.

So the question is: What if the first train is late, and I miss the second train?

Thanks in advance,

Zebs

Providing you allow at least 45 minutes between arriving at Paddington and departing from King's Cross, you are covered.

For example the last valid itinerary of the day is:

Oxford 2007
Didcot Parkway 2024

Didcot Parkway 2029
London Paddington 2114

London King's Cross 2200
Newcastle 0214
​

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you have a link to a table of minimum transfer times? I wasn't aware that the recommended times changed throughout the day.

It's on BRTimes.

http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=PAD&date=20161123

Click on "show 87 fixed links".

Connection time is calculated by taking the figure shown there, and adding the minimum connection time for each station at either end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Providing you allow at least 45 minutes between arriving at Paddington and departing from King's Cross, you are covered.

For example the last valid itinerary of the day is:

Oxford 2007
Didcot Parkway 2024

Didcot Parkway 2029
London Paddington 2114

London King's Cross 2200
Newcastle 0214
​

NRE shows the latest connection as the 2001 from Oxford.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...ndResponseId=4&isOutboundJourneySelected=true

 

[cookie365]

It's quicker and usually cheaper to fly.

 

[yorkie]

NRE shows the latest connection as the 2001 from Oxford.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...ndResponseId=4&isOutboundJourneySelected=true

The itinerary I posted is a valid one, irrespective of whether or not it's shown on NRE. You can even get a through ticket for it!

The minimum connection time is 45 minutes.

(NRE does it's own thing and doesn't result in any loss of rights contractually)

 

[AlterEgo]

The itinerary I posted is a valid one, irrespective of whether or not it's shown on NRE. You can even get a through ticket for it!

The minimum connection time is 45 minutes.

(NRE does it's own thing and doesn't result in any loss of rights contractually)

That's true, but the OP isn't buying tickets on a single itinerary and will not be given one, so must go "by the book". They will need to leave 45 minutes between trains unless they're travelling at the extremities of the day where they may need to leave up to 55 minutes.

 

[bb21]

Make sure you buy one of the tickets at the London end as Zone U1* Londn and not London Terminals. Slightly more expensive than using Oyster but saves a lot of potential hassle in the event of delays.

 

[yorkie]

That's true, but the OP ..... must go "by the book".....

...which is 45 minutes as the minimum interchange time.

If the interchange time was longer, the itinerary I provided earlier wouldn't be given as a through itinerary on accredited booking sites.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Make sure you buy one of the tickets at the London end as Zone U1* Londn and not London Terminals. Slightly more expensive than using Oyster but saves a lot of potential hassle in the event of delays.

Although there is no evidence of any increased validity, it may reduce the possibility of an argument in the event of delays, and if doing that I'd buy the first fare to London Terminals and the second fare from Zone U1* Londn.

 

[AlterEgo]

...which is 45 minutes as the minimum interchange time.

If the interchange time was longer, the itinerary I provided earlier wouldn't be given as a through itinerary on accredited booking sites.

So BRtimes is wrong then?

 

[bb21]

...which is 45 minutes as the minimum interchange time.

If the interchange time was longer, the itinerary I provided earlier wouldn't be given as a through itinerary on accredited booking sites.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although there is no evidence of any increased validity, it may reduce the possibility of an argument in the event of delays, and if doing that I'd buy the first fare to London Terminals and the second fare from Zone U1* Londn.

You have forgotten about the peace of mind brought about through indisputable documented rules, which makes a big difference for many people.

Not you nor I granted, but we are not an ordinary everyday passenger in any true sense of the term.

 

[yorkie]

So BRtimes is wrong then?

It's just showing what the open data says. But the booking engines are producing valid itineraries.

Unfortunately the eNRT no longer appears to contain the cross-London transfer times.

Historically there has been no differentiation, it's only a relatively recent thing with itineraries on NRE differing to those generated by booking engines.

I would say such a change would be a material change that ought to require DfT approval. It's unclear to me if ATOC are trying to increase minimum interchange times by stealth, or if this is simply a mistake, or what.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have forgotten about the peace of mind brought about through indisputable documented rules, which makes a big difference for many people.

Not you nor I granted, but we are not an ordinary everyday passenger in any true sense of the term.

An ordinary passenger seeing an itinerary available for a through fare would surely feel confident that booking each part separately would be a valid itinerary. And they'd be correct.

 

[yorkie]

Just to add, NRE 'recommends' more time than contractually required by default at certain times, however you can click advanced options and choose to get rid of this extra time, thus generating the valid 20:07 itinerary. I have attached a screenshot.

 

[bb21]

An ordinary passenger seeing an itinerary available for a through fare would surely feel confident that booking each part separately would be a valid itinerary. And they'd be correct.

What about the cross-London transfer shown by NRE, which is the definitive source?

This has been done to death on this forum. I am not willing to take sides because no consensus was ever achieved.

I am not prepared to advise an average passenger to take unnecessary risks, when a clearly valid combination exists, for the sake of 60p, and the validity clarified by the industry.

Until trainsplit can offer a guarantee that such a combination would be honoured in the event of delays, quoting such an itinerary without the cross-London transfer means nothing.

 

[yorkie]

What about the cross-London transfer shown by NRE, which is the definitive source?

NRE adds additional time than is contractually required at certain times of day. NRE does have the option to remove this additional time. See my screenshot above for a valid itinerary produced by NRE adhering to the minimum interchange time, but without the recommended additional time. It is a compliant itinerary.

This has been done to death on this forum. I am not willing to take sides because no consensus was ever achieved.

It is a fact! If people wish to disagree with the facts that is their choice.

I am not prepared to advise an average passenger to take unnecessary risks, when a clearly valid combination exists, for the sake of 60p, and the validity clarified by the industry.

There is no unnecessary risk; see my attachments in post #13.

 

[bb21]

NRE adds additional time than is contractually required at certain times of day. NRE does have the option to remove this additional time. See my screenshot above for a valid itinerary produced by NRE adhering to the minimum interchange time, but without the recommended additional time. It is a compliant itinerary.

Whatever the interchange time, it does not change the fact that the cross-London transfer is not covered by a ticket to London Terminals and another from.

It is a fact! If people wish to disagree with the facts that is their choice.

There is no unnecessary risk; see my attachments in post #13.

What is a fact? The fact is that the situation with two London Terminals tickets not joining at the same station without a ticket for the cross-London transfer is undefined.

Are we actually discussing the same thing? I am not talking about interchange times just to clarify. I'm talking about tickets. If you can point me to a definitive source which says that a ticket to Paddington and a ticket from King's Cross no doubt join up then I will happily believe you.

My understanding from past discussions on the forum is that there is no consensus whether they join up or not. It is undefined.

 

[yorkie]

Whatever the interchange time, it does not change the fact that the cross-London transfer is not covered by a ticket to London Terminals and another from.

The combination of fares sold by Trainsplit is a valid combination (the customer just needs to pay separately for LU transfer).

What is a fact? The fact is that the situation with two London Terminals tickets not joining at the same station without a ticket for the cross-London transfer is undefined.

It is a fact that the itinerary provided, and fares sold by, Trainsplit are valid.

Are we actually discussing the same thing? I am not talking about interchange times just to clarify. I'm talking about tickets. If you can point me to a definitive source which says that a ticket to Paddington and a ticket from King's Cross no doubt join up then I will happily believe you.

If it wasn't legitimate, Trainsplit would not have been accredited to sell them.

My understanding from past discussions on the forum is that there is no consensus whether they join up or not. It is undefined.

If ATOC/RSP/RDG/whatever they're called today are happy for the fares to be sold, which they are, then that settles that.

 

[SickyNicky]

When we sell such a combination, the customer is purchasing their own ticket for the tube leg, and the means for that is not relevant to us. The itinerary is valid according to the data and they have a valid set of split tickets (including the one across London which they must purchase themselves).

Doing this is specifically mentioned in the iKB (the rail industry's internal knowledgebase) as being valid - they don't specify which tube ticket is needed, just "a ticket for the tube".

To date we have had ZERO problems with people on split advances across London in these circumstances. They are always accepted for travel on later services once the itinerary is produced. To be fair to the rail industry, they seem to have got this one right.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Wow lots of information there, thanks everyone for that - I will try to take it all in.

Regarding the london underground part, does it help that I could book a ticket from Bristol -> London Kings X, thus including the underground part in that half of the journey.

Flying is a good option I guess, but I find it somewhat broken up and can't get any work done. On the train I can get some decent work time in.

 

[Romilly]

Regarding the london underground part, does it help that I could book a ticket from Bristol -> London Kings X, thus including the underground part in that half of the journey.

That is certainly what I would be inclined to do.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Regarding the london underground part, does it help that I could book a ticket from Bristol -> London Kings X, thus including the underground part in that half of the journey.

I would have thought so, as the Underground might also be disrupted. The actual travel time from Paddington to Kings Cross is quoted as 15 minutes, so 45 minutes allows a lot of extra time to navigate the Paddington main line station and the complex of tunnels at Kings Cross Underground. There are two Underground stations at Paddington with direct trains to Kings Cross. The one in the main station has a far better service, but access to those platforms is more difficult than it used to be for those arriving in the main station.

 

[SickyNicky]

There are two Underground stations at Paddington with direct trains to Kings Cross. The one in the main station has a far better service, but access to those platforms is more difficult than it used to be for those arriving in the main station.

Are there? The "new" underground station behind the mainline station, which you access from the bridge half way down the platforms, is on the Hammersmith and City line plus the circle line, and has plenty of direct trains to Kings Cross. I always use that.

But the "old" underground station (in the main concourse) doesn't have any direct trains to Kings Cross (unless you count going the "wrong" way around the circle line), does it? It can sometimes be quicker to take the Bakerloo line from there and change at Baker St, though.

 

[bb21]

Going back to my earlier point, after further discussion with Trainsplit, what I will say is that my advice would be to buy such a combination from Trainsplit, with tickets to and from London Terminals only if so wished, together with their itinerary. I have assurances from Trainsplit that in the event of unresolvable issues with the relevant TOC in respect of any additional fares purchased, there will be suitable redress for the customer.

I am unable to offer this assurance when purchasing from a different retailer but using such an itinerary provided by Trainsplit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are there? The "new" underground station behind the mainline station, which you access from the bridge half way down the platforms, is on the Hammersmith and City line plus the circle line, and has plenty of direct trains to Kings Cross. I always use that.

But the "old" underground station (in the main concourse) doesn't have any direct trains to Kings Cross (unless you count going the "wrong" way around the circle line), does it? It can sometimes be quicker to take the Bakerloo line from there and change at Baker St, though.

If I ended up at the Circle Line platforms I would just get the next train and change at Edgware Road, unless there is a massive gap.

But I agree that going to the Hammersmith Line platform is much better, with direct services every 5 minutes.

 

[ngood77]

What if ONE person in a party is late, due to train delays, and the party can only travel together. I take it ALL can get the next available train when the latest person arrives ?

 

[najaB]

What if ONE person in a party is late, due to train delays, and the party can only travel together. I take it ALL can get the next available train when the latest person arrives ?

That's a good question - in your scenario why can they only travel together?

 

[ngood77]

That's a good question - in your scenario why can they only travel together?

Just assume they do, what's the answer ? [emoji846]

 

[AlterEgo]

Just assume they do, what's the answer ? [emoji846]

You need to answer the question first!

For example, do they just all want to travel together, or are they using a Group ticket, or some other reason which actually requires them all to be present?

 

[ngood77]

I did say CAN only travel together, not WISH to all travel together. I have the answer now anyhow, we would be eligible for the later train. Ta anyway.

 

[najaB]

I have the answer now anyhow, we would be eligible for the later train. Ta anyway.

Not necessarily.