2020 US Presidential Election

[GRALISTAIR]

VP Debate tonight. I wont be watching. I have had enough of politics!

 

[nlogax]

VP Debate tonight. I wont be watching. I have had enough of politics!

At least it'll be a smidge more civilised than last week's..right? Regardless of what anyone thinks of Pence, he'll at least sensibly debate with Kamala Harris. I'm wondering what the chances of a second presidential debate are next week. Trump may still be infectious, and even if he isn't there's still the rules issue.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

At least it'll be a smidge more civilised than last week's..right? Regardless of what anyone thinks of Pence, he'll at least sensibly debate with Kamala Harris.

I would think so. Trump is a brawler. Pence is very calm and collected. A perfect VP for Trump when you think about it.

 

[najaB]

I hear America is the only developed country with a strong religious culture.

I think the Israelis, Italians and Spanish might have something to say about that!

I suspect the comment was tongue-in-cheek.

Hence why I think there's more to it than simply gun availability. Perhaps those who argue for more restriction on guns in the States won't reduce the horrendous rates of gunshot injuries without tackling the wider and much more difficult cultural issue.

Yes, there lots of countries with high per-captia gun ownership that don't have the problems with gun violence that the USA does. As long as the mantra that "a good guy with a gun" is the solution for "a bad guy with a gun" that is unlikely to change.

Pence is very calm and collected. A perfect VP for Trump when you think about it.

Too calm. Almost comatose at times.

 

[JonasB]

In terms of choice neither are good choice in my view both old men who should retire. I would bar anybody over the age of 70 standing for high office, but aside that neither seem a good candidate, is that the best the US has to offer? similar to the last UK election Johnson or Corbyn was that the best the UK had to offer? but then you could argue anyone with high ability and integrity would not probably want to be a politician anyway.

I think it was Plato who in "The Republic" argued that those most interested in power are least suited for the job.

Or as Douglas Adams said it:

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”

 

[edwin_m]

Too calm. Almost comatose at times.

Unless Trump slips him some of his dexamethasone.

 

[najaB]

Too calm. Almost comatose at times.

Unless Trump slips him some of his dexamethasone.

I've not seen it yet but apparently a fly landed on his head during the debate and stayed there for about two minutes! Maybe he does need the dexamethasone.

 

[Senex]

I think it was Plato who in "The Republic" argued that those most interested in power are least suited for the job.

Or as Douglas Adams said it:

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”

Just substitute "Prime Minister & First Lord of the Treasury" for "President".

 

[Domh245]

I've not seen it yet but apparently a fly landed on his head during the debate and stayed there for about two minutes! Maybe he does need the dexamethasone.

The fly is all that they're talking about on reddit, which is a damning criticism on the quality of the rest of the debate!

 

[nlogax]

The fly is all that they're talking about on reddit, which is a damning criticism on the quality of the rest of the debate!

From what I saw this morning the fly was far more truthful than Pence was. At least the whole thing was relatively civil.

 

[najaB]

From what I saw this morning the fly was far more truthful than Pence was

Stephen Colbert said it best: he's so full of crap he's attracting flies.

 

[nlogax]

Next week's second presidential debate is confirmed to be going ahead and will be remote. Doesn't remove the problem of the interruptions but at least no-one is going to catch anything unpleasant other than extreme political apathy.

Edit - ok, now Trump claiming in a tv interview that he's not going to waste his time on a virtual debate. So back to square one.

 

[Typhoon]

Next week's second presidential debate is confirmed to be going ahead and will be remote. Doesn't remove the problem of the interruptions but at least no-one is going to catch anything unpleasant other than extreme political apathy.

Edit - ok, now Trump claiming in a tv interview that he's not going to waste his time on a virtual debate. So back to square one.

It can't possibly be because the moderator could shut him down every time he started interrupting and not letting Biden explain his point could it?

President Donald Trump has refused to take part in a virtual TV debate with his Democratic rival Joe Biden.

The commission deciding the format of the 15 October debate in Miami said it would have to take place virtually.

It made the decision after Mr Trump was diagnosed with coronavirus. He was treated in hospital, discharged and has no current symptoms, his doctor says.

Mr Trump said he would not waste his time on a virtual debate he said had been ordered to "protect" his rival.

The first debate descended into insults and interruptions. US media used words like "chaos" and "ugly" to describe it.

The vice-presidential debate, held on Wednesday night between Mike Pence and Kamala Harris, was a far more measured affair.

The next 90-minute presidential event is due to be held at the Adrienne Arsht Center for the Performing Arts in Miami, with local residents in the audience posing questions to the candidates.

But the commission said candidates would have to take part "from separate remote locations".

Participants and the moderator will be in Miami.

The commission said the decision had been made "to protect the health and safety of all involved".

Mr Trump previously said he looked forward to debating Mr Biden on stage and on Monday Mr Biden said he would share a stage with Mr Trump as long as medical experts gave the go-ahead.

I've hilighted sections which indicate that the decision was made independently so Trump's accusation of bias may not stack up in most people's eyes.. Those who made the decision are given in the second source; they are unknown to me but from their job descriptions are not likely to be raving lefties. The former senator is a (moderate) Republican!

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54465139 & https://debates.org/about-cpd/overview/

 

[kermit]

It can't possibly be because the moderator could shut him down every time he started interrupting and not letting Biden explain his point could it?



I've hilighted sections which indicate that the decision was made independently so Trump's accusation of bias may not stack up in most people's eyes.. Those who made the decision are given in the second source; they are unknown to me but from their job descriptions are not likely to be raving lefties. The former senator is a (moderate) Republican!

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54465139 & https://debates.org/about-cpd/overview/

With the daily rise in reports of White House infections, Trump would need to be 14 days on from contact with any of them, let alone his own infectious status, for a face to face to be justifiable. So an online debate is perfectly justifiable, and Team Trump's froth about Biden being wired and having teleprompters etc could easily be negated with impartial observers. Trump is now running scared, and hopefully has run out of options to turn his disastrous opinion poll ratings around. Unfortunately, however, history suggests he will stop at nothing, so the next few weeks could become an even more dangerous time than we have recently experienced.

 

[najaB]

Those who made the decision are given in the second source; they are unknown to me but from their job descriptions are not likely to be raving lefties.

The Commission on Presidential Debates is about as impartial as they come.

 

[Typhoon]

With the daily rise in reports of White House infections, Trump would need to be 14 days on from contact with any of them, let alone his own infectious status, for a face to face to be justifiable. So an online debate is perfectly justifiable, and Team Trump's froth about Biden being wired and having teleprompters etc could easily be negated with impartial observers. Trump is now running scared, and hopefully has run out of options to turn his disastrous opinion poll ratings around.

You have (rightly) used a logical approach. It makes absolute sense to the sensible but I am sure Trump (and his supporters) will see it as an attempt to blunt his best tactical weapon in a debate, bullying.

If I had more confidence in Biden I would suggest that he says that he is willing to turn up with the stated attempt of fulfilling the debate on his own (provided Trump isn't allowed a debate on his own - by using the argument that the opportunity to turn up and turned it down).

Next debate 22nd October - this must be in doubt too?

Unfortunately, however, history suggests he will stop at nothing, so the next few weeks could become an even more dangerous time than we have recently experienced.

Supreme Court - 'I wasn't allowed to debate'?

 

[nlogax]

Unfortunately, however, history suggests he will stop at nothing, so the next few weeks could become an even more dangerous time than we have recently experienced.

Indeed, this is the worry. US politics is true popcorn entertainment at the moment but some of that is down to its unprecedented nature as the Republican side push norms out of the window in what looks like the goal of remaining in power regardless of what happens next month. November to January is likely to be one of the most torrid times in the entire history of US politics and could be hugely dangerous. It'll make the winter of 2000-2001 look like a bijou storm in a tiny teacup.

 

[najaB]

Supreme Court - 'I wasn't allowed to debate'?

That wouldn't hold any water - there's no legal right to a debate.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

US politics is true popcorn entertainment at the moment --

You named that tune in 1.

 

[Typhoon]

Unfortunately, however, history suggests he will stop at nothing, so the next few weeks could become an even more dangerous time than we have recently experienced.

During a live phone-in on Fox Business, Donald Trump complained again that not enough of his political enemies have been arrested – and said attorney general Bill Barr could find himself in “a sad situation” if he doesn’t start rounding them up.
The president’s rambling and ill-tempered interview with Maria Bartiromo on Thursday saw him run through a long list of his usual grievances, but he was particularly rancorous on the subject of supposed Obama-era “crimes” against him for which he wants to see his predecessor indicted, along with Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and many others.
“Unless Bill Barr indicts these people for crimes,” declared the president, “the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we’re gonna get little satisfaction unless I win. Because I won’t forget it. But these people should be indicted, this was the greatest political crime in the history of our country. And that includes Obama, and that includes Biden; these are people that spied on my campaign, and we have everything.

OK, this is from the Independent ( https://www.independent.co.uk/news...ws-clinton-obama-biden-obamagate-b885971.html) but the tweets are included. It is not just Trump that is of concern but his supporters. The concern must be that this sort of proposed action (over 3 weeks before polling day) will may make an inflammatory situation still worse.

Indeed, this is the worry. US politics is true popcorn entertainment at the moment

But only if you like horror movies?

 

[WelshBluebird]

There's now a Republican senator tweeting about how democracy isn't important.
In itself that is enough to raise eyebrows but can probably be explained by going into some tyranny of the majority discussions (similar to what we had in this country in response to the Brexit vote - basically just because a "majority" votes for something does not mean that it is something a country should do), or by someone trying to be a bit too clever when describing what kind of government the US has (i.e. there are different types of democracy and strictly speaking the US has an interesting place in that discussion because of the whole electoral college stuff - where electors can totally ignore the popular vote if they want to).
But when added to the previous talk from Trump about refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he does lose the election, it feels a little chilling!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The issue is there was not really a peaceful transfer of power in 2016/2017 so it really has the potential to be messy.

 

[Domh245]

The issue is there was not really a peaceful transfer of power in 2016/2017...

I'm curious as to why you think this? There was certainly a lot of furore surrounding the Trump election campaign and a lot of "not my president" type protests, etc, but I was under the impression that the actual power was handed over pretty cleanly - no legal battles about the election, etc. Compared to the sort of potential for messy transfer this season (with Trump having to be forcibly removed) it was pretty tame

 

[edwin_m]

There's now a Republican senator tweeting about how democracy isn't important.
In itself that is enough to raise eyebrows but can probably be explained by going into some tyranny of the majority discussions (similar to what we had in this country in response to the Brexit vote - basically just because a "majority" votes for something does not mean that it is something a country should do), or by someone trying to be a bit too clever when describing what kind of government the US has (i.e. there are different types of democracy and strictly speaking the US has an interesting place in that discussion because of the whole electoral college stuff - where electors can totally ignore the popular vote if they want to).
But when added to the previous talk from Trump about refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he does lose the election, it feels a little chilling!

In the USA it's not even tyranny of the majority. The Republican candidate secured the presidency in 2000 and 2016 while receiving fewer votes than the Democrat, and in 2000 probably only did so because of lobbying and legal pressure on a Supreme Court where a majority were appointed by Republicans (and I'll remind you again the winner's brother was the governor of the state in question). The Senate has two members per state so is inherently biased to smaller and more rural and therefore more Republican states, and many districts in the House and in state assemblies are "gerrymandered" because the party in power gets to set the boundaries. Apparently also if the electoral college is tied the House gets to choose the President, but rather than having a straight vote the votes are one per state (cast for the party with more representatives from that state) so the same bias applies as in the Senate.

So in multiple ways the system appears to be rigged in favour of the Republicans. I've gathered this from mainly progressive news sites but they appear to be reporting fact so I don't believe the filter bubble effect applies - if anyone disagrees with me then please politely point it out...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm curious as to why you think this? There was certainly a lot of furore surrounding the Trump election campaign and a lot of "not my president" type protests, etc, but I was under the impression that the actual power was handed over pretty cleanly - no legal battles about the election, etc. Compared to the sort of potential for messy transfer this season (with Trump having to be forcibly removed) it was pretty tame

The poison pills left was what I was thinking of.

 

[Cowley]

The poison pills left was what I was thinking of.

What was that all about @GRALISTAIR?
I’ve not heard of this before.

 

[Domh245]

The poison pills left was what I was thinking of.

Poison pills?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What was that all about @GRALISTAIR?
I’ve not heard of this before.

Poison pills?

Gentlemen I think you are being deliberately naive here - now come on.

This is just a sampling - there are literally hundreds more. You dont leave office and have loads of investigations pending which have since been proved as hoaxes -the whole Russian collusion narrative etc. then have the nerve to say these are not poison pills (yes they are my words) but you get the drift. 3 years it went on with people like Shiff saying he had absolute 100% proof but under oath denied he had. This was systematic and as late as WW2 this would in most circles be classed as Treason.

 

[Domh245]

Gentlemen I think you are being deliberately naive here - now come on.

This is just a sampling - there are literally hundreds more. You dont leave office and have loads of investigations pending which have since been proved as hoaxes -the whole Russian collusion narrative etc. then have the nerve to say these are not poison pills (yes they are my words) but you get the drift. 3 years it went on with people like Shiff saying he had absolute 100% proof but under oath denied he had. This was systematic and as late as WW2 this would in most circles be classed as Treason.

I thought the Russian Collusion simply wasn't proven, as opposed to being proven as a hoax. That was certainly the impression I got of reporting of the Mueller report, but I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick

I certainly don't think they're "poison pills" - there were active investigations into foreign interference in an election, which were quite rightly followed through (and were proven to have happened). I certainly suspect that had it been the other way around it wouldn't have been called a "poison pill" but instead acknowledged for the correct procedure it was.

 

[Cowley]

I took the expression ‘Poison pills’ slightly too literally there...