2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[GusB]

Anyway my point about Israel not committing genocide stands.

It would appear that the UN disagrees. Here's what it has to say about genocide:

Definitions of Genocide and Related Crimes | United Nations

www.un.org

Definition​

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide​

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Points 1 to 4 can definitely be ticked off the list. I'm not sure if you'd class the arbitrary detention of children under point 5, but if so you can tick that one off too.

October 7 was a game changer and anything gone before is irrelevant now.

How can events prior to October 7 be irrelevant? It's important to understand that the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians has been going on for decades and that the events of that day were just one part of that conflict. Prior to that the situation in Gaza was relatively calm, but the forcible removal of Palestinians from their homes and land in the West Bank and the illegal settlements were and still are, more so in recent weeks, an ongoing problem. October 7 was certainly the trigger for the current escalation of hostilities, but let's not pretend that it was the beginning.

We all have different views on here gained from many sources, however it's obvious that the hate is heading to our shores. Words such as genocide fan the flames in my opinion , it's not our fight as my father said.

We have a responsibility to call out when atrocities are committed. I'm certain that most contributors to this thread will agree that October 7 was such an atrocity and I certainly do not condone the actions of Hamas on that day, but that does not justify the total destruction of property and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians by Israel.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Pal listen up, I don't want a debate and I'm certainly not interested in your holiday snaps. I'm not trying to get the thread taken down either, I was just putting my view forward. I find it strange that the views on here and another footballing forum I go on are very similar. However out in the real world I don't know anyone who gives a toss about Gaza or Israel to be honest. I don't talk about it at work because nobody cares. Except when suffering abuse during demos preventing me from working ,which happen regularly, even a 16 year old female apprentice has been verbally abused by pro Palestinian protesters. Then we talk about it and you can imagine our thoughts. We Don t want to import grievances from the middle east to our shores. Sadly I think it's too late. Anyway debate away and maybe you can send your holiday snaps to the Israeli hostages, if they are still alive, remember them.

My “holiday snaps” are very important to this discussion because they literally mirror exactly what’s going. What’s happening today is not a new tactic, they (the US) did the same thing 150 years ago to thousands of Native Americans. At least show some respect, your attitude is honestly disgusting. Imagine if you shared pictures of the holocaust and Nazi Concentration camps and I turned around and said put your holiday pics away.

October 7 was a game changer and anything gone before is irrelevant now.

Let me very simply put each of the extracts in one line sentences for you.

1. A certain population have been oppressed for decades

2. A small group of said population engage in an uprising

3. The entire population are now subject to extermination- either leave or be killed

Now for the avoidance of doubt, does 1 make 2 ok? No, it doesn’t. But does 1 have any relevance to 2? Absolutely.

History is extremely important and the reason why I keep citing it is so you can understand how absurd and fascist your views are coming across as I’m give you like for like comparisons with historical examples that are (now) universally accepted to have been atrocities. The reason why you don’t care about context is because you want to spin a certain narrative and have a really strong bias towards Israel.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I would say the biggest barrier to between 1973 and October 2023 was Yitzak Rabin's assassination. He and Yasser Arafat were on the road to a two-state solution and a more sustained peace, before someone affiliated with the Israeli far-right killed him in opposition to signing the Oslo Accords.

Absolutely. There was a very real possibility that we would've had peace, as the security barrier hadn't been built and Israel may well have accepted leaving the West Bank with the exception of East Jerusalem.

This would be more acceptable were it not for the illegal settlement of parts of the West Bank by Israel, where Hamas has no jurisdiction. This doesn't mean Hamas doesn't get a free pass, but this is far from a one-sided problem.

I think one major issue with the West Bank is that it's not really clear what to do with it. Israel was occupying it after the 1967 war, but originally Jordan annexed and occupied it after the 1948 war. We talk about Palestinian control of the territory, but if you look historically, then the modern State of Palestine is not the same as the Palestine that existed under British rule. For that reason, while it's clear that Israel is occupying the West Bank, it's not clear exactly what they're occupying and who should control the territory.

If I were a major international leader, I would be proposing that Israel withdraws to a line that reflects reality on the ground while providing Israel with security. The 1967 borders are not realistically an option, but most of the current security barrier could be repurposed as the international border. I think expecting Israel to give up East Jerusalem is not going to happen, but I don't think it's impossible for them to withdraw from places such as Ari'el.

With Gaza, I honestly don't know what I would do here. There's no sign of other Arab countries coming to their aid, Israel is bankrolled by Trump, and I think the only effective solution at this point is to start throwing Israel out of various international institutions and to isolate them diplomatically. They've made it clear that the latest offensive is just beginning, and I very much doubt there'll be anything standing in Gaza by the end of it.

I even wonder if Hamas are really capable of fighting back at this point.

 

[Carlisle]

With Gaza, I honestly don't know what I would do

Yes a dilemma given the majority of Israelis likely want an end to war but not given recent history a government that’ll permit Hamas to recruit, rebuild & rearm unchecked on their side of the boarder either.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Yes a dilemma given the majority of Israelis will want an end to war but not a government that’ll simply permit Hamas to recruit, rebuild & rearm unchecked on their side of the boarder.

Yes, exactly. Without any of the Arab countries stepping up to offer to act as a guaranteeing power in Gaza, it's really difficult to see how Israel can stop this war now. Hamas will simply rearm themselves if there's an end to the war without their defeat, and Gaza will be obliterated again in 10-15 years time.

 

[GusB]

Yes a dilemma given the majority of Israelis likely want an end to war but not given recent history a government that’ll permit Hamas to recruit, rebuild & rearm unchecked on their side of the boarder border either.

I'm interested to know how you think that Hamas will be able to rebuild and rearm. It'll have no problem with recruiting, certainly, but I'm struggling to understand how any equipment can get into Gaza when Israel has had such strict control over the borders for so long. Is Israel rubbish at border control, deliberately letting stuff through, or does Hamas has the ability to produce weapons within Gaza?

Yes, exactly. Without any of the Arab countries stepping up to offer to act as a guaranteeing power in Gaza, it's really difficult to see how Israel can stop this war now. Hamas will simply rearm themselves if there's an end to the war without their defeat, and Gaza will be obliterated again in 10-15 years time.

It doesn't matter whether the Arab countries step up or not; this is simply an arse-saving exercise for Netanyahu - leave government and potentially go to jail for the corruption charges or bring the right-wing, genocidal nutters back in on the condition that the "war" resumes. Israel could stop this "war" tomorrow if the desire was there but there are so many internal conflicts within the Israeli government.

 

[JamesT]

I'm interested to know how you think that Hamas will be able to rebuild and rearm. It'll have no problem with recruiting, certainly, but I'm struggling to understand how any equipment can get into Gaza when Israel has had such strict control over the borders for so long. Is Israel rubbish at border control, deliberately letting stuff through, or does Hamas has the ability to produce weapons within Gaza?

You just need to look at how they’ve done it in the past. Tunnels under the Egyptian border and repurposing other materials. Pipes intended for a water system turned into rocket bodies, fertiliser and sugar turned into rocket fuel and explosives.
Even with competent border control, there’s only so much you can stop getting in.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm interested to know how you think that Hamas will be able to rebuild and rearm. It'll have no problem with recruiting, certainly, but I'm struggling to understand how any equipment can get into Gaza when Israel has had such strict control over the borders for so long. Is Israel rubbish at border control, deliberately letting stuff through, or does Hamas has the ability to produce weapons within Gaza?

It's essentially a lot to do with Hamas being quite ingenious with their military capabilities. Tunnels are one part of it, as Rafah is a split city between Gaza and Egypt, but they're also astonishingly good at improvising weapons from seemingly mundane things. Egypt is doing their best to protect the border, but Hamas have the advantage of a large amount of young people with nothing better to do than dig tunnels. I believe that Egypt now has a 5km buffer zone in place, but this is still very difficult to actually police.

In terms of Israeli border control, the problem relates to the Egypt-Gaza border. There's an area within Gaza known as the "Philadelphi Corridor" next to the Egyptian border that Israel used to control and withdrew from, and after their withdrawal, it was very easy for Hamas to build tunnels. But as @JamesT says above, they will simply adapt civilian items for military purposes, so even completely blocking the Egyptian border and controlling everything that goes in won't be enough.

This is why I wonder as to what can really be done with Gaza, because it has a large and very angry young population. No-one wants them, the Palestinian Authority doesn't want them to move to Palestine, so what other options are there? The only logical thing I can think of is to agree a two-state solution with the Palestinian Authority in exchange for Israeli rule over Gaza.

 

[oldman]

the Palestinian Authority doesn't want them to move to Palestine

Gaza is part of Palestine, as is the West Bank.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Gaza is part of Palestine, as is the West Bank.

I would hesitate to say that it is. There hasn't been any significant movement between the West Bank and Gaza in what, 25 years? It might be part of the State of Palestine officially, but it only lasted two years under quasi-independent rule by the Palestinian Authority.

The only real answer is that the Arab League turns it into an independent protectorate, in which they take responsibility for Gaza in exchange for Israel guaranteeing not to attack the territory. They would provide security and actively stop tunnelling, and Israel in turn would allow for the opening of the sea and air ports.

But they don't want it, and Israel is effectively the only power in the region willing to use force to drive out Hamas. But what can Israel do when the message is clear: we will attack as soon as we're in a position to do so.

It doesn't excuse the genocide in Gaza, but any solution has to provide for the security of both Gazans and Israelis, not just one side

 

[brad465]

Orban withdrawing Hungary from the ICC as he hosts Netanyahu:

Hungary to withdraw from International Criminal Court

The move is announced hours after Israel's PM Benjamin Netanyahu, who is sought under an ICC arrest warrant, arrives in Budapest for a state visit.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hungary's government has announced it is withdrawing from the International Criminal Court (ICC).
The move was announced by a senior official in Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government hours after Israel's leader Benjamin Netanyahu, who is sought under an ICC arrest warrant, arrived in Hungary for a state visit.
Orban had invited Netanyahu as soon as the warrant was issued last November, saying the ruling would have "no effect" in his country.
In November, ICC judges said there were "reasonable grounds" that Netanyahu bore "criminal responsibility" for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity during the war between Israel and Hamas. Netanyahu has condemned the ICC's decision as "antisemitic".
The ICC, a global court, has the authority to prosecute those accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.
Hungary is a founding member of the ICC, which counts 125 member states, and will be the first European Union nation to pull out of it.
The ICC was a "respectable initiative", Orban's chief of staff Gergely Gulyas told Hungarian state-owned news agency MTI, but added it had deviated from its original purpose and become a political body.
He said the warrant issued against Netanyahu was unacceptable and that the government did not want to participate in the court's work anymore. Hungary's parliament has never proclaimed the ICC's statute, so it is not part of the country's law, Gulyas added.
Israel meanwhile has thanked Orban for its "clear and strong moral stance alongside Israel," Foreign Minister Gideon Sa'ar wrote on X.
"The so-called 'International Criminal Court' lost its moral authority after trampling the fundamental principles of international law in its zest for harming Israel's right to self-defence," Sa'ar added.
The US, Russia, China and North Korea are among the nations that are not part of the ICC, and therefore do not recognise its jurisdiction.
Israel is also not part of the treaty, but the ICC ruled in 2021 that it did have jurisdiction over the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, because the UN's Secretary General had accepted that Palestinians were a member, external.
Hungary now needs to send written notification to the UN Secretary General to leave the treaty, with the withdrawal taking effect one year later, according to article 127 of the Rome Statute.
Since the warrant was issued, Hungarian authorities should technically arrest Netanyahu and hand him over to the court in the Hague, although member states do not always choose to enforce ICC warrants.
In Europe, some ICC member states said they would arrest the Israeli leader if he set foot in their country, while others, such as Germany, announced that he would not be detained if he visited.
The White House had said the US rejected the ICC decision and Netanyahu has visited the country since the warrant was issued in November. His visit to Hungary marks Netanyahu's first trip to Europe since then.
Hungarian Defence Minister Kristof Szalay-Bobrovniczky, greeted Netanyahu on the tarmac of Budapest airport on Wednesday night, welcoming him to the country.

 

[Carlisle]

But what can Israel do when the message is clear: we will attack as soon as we're in a position to do so.

That appears to be the post Oct 7th reality & dilemma on the ground for most of the Israel’s population.
Not heard any Country so far on either side of the debate offer a realistic solution yet.
However if there’s credible intelligence much of Hamas now desire some kind of lasting peace, Israel should cease fire now.

 

[brad465]

This weekend has seen a row blow up over two Labour MPs being denied entry into Israel, while Badenoch has caused another stir by backing Israel's decision:

Row as Badenoch backs Israel barring two UK MPs

Abtisam Mohamed and Yuan Yang say they were "astounded" to be denied entry to the country while on a trip to visit the West Bank.

www.bbc.co.uk

Conservative leader Kemi Badenoch has been criticised by senior politicians across the political spectrum after she backed Israel's decision to deny two UK Labour MPs entry to the country.

Abtisam Mohamed and Yuan Yang said they were on a trip to visit the occupied West Bank to "witness, first-hand, the situation" and were "astounded" after being stopped at the airport.

Badenoch told the BBC that Israel had a right to "control its borders", adding it was "very significant" there were Labour MPs other countries did not want to let in.

Foreign Secretary David Lammy said her comments were "disgraceful", while Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said she had shown "unbelievably poor judgement".

Senior Tory MP Richard Fuller told Times Radio he thought MPs on officials trips should be "welcomed in any country", adding "we should all be very worried" about democracy.

Yang, the MP for Earley and Woodley, and Mohamed, the MP for Sheffield Central, flew to Israel from London Luton Airport with two aides on Saturday afternoon.

The Israeli immigration authority said Interior Minister Moshe Arbel denied entry to all four passengers after they were questioned. It accused them of travelling to "document the security forces".

Badenoch first made her comments when asked on the BBC's Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg show whether Israel was entitled to refuse entry to the MPs.

"Countries should be able to control their borders," she said. "What I think is shocking is that we have MPs in Labour who other countries will not allow through, I think that's very significant."

She continued: "I believe that the people who represent us in Parliament should be people who should be able to go anywhere in the world and people not be worried about what they're going to do when they go into those countries."

Badenoch said the reason given by the Israelis was that "they don't believe that they're going to comply with their laws" and "there are many people that we don't allow into our country and I don't think we should be setting precedents in a different way".

Tagging a video of the Conservative leader's comments on X, Lammy posted: "It's disgraceful you are cheerleading another country for detaining and deporting two British MPs.

"Do you say the same about Tory MPs banned from China?

"This government will continue to stand up for the rights of our MPs to speak their mind, whatever their party."

 

[brad465]

Here we go again:

Israel launches major offensive as Gaza rescuers say scores killed

IDF says "Operation Gideon's Chariots" aims to defeat Hamas, as Hamas-run health ministry says hundreds of people killed since Thursday.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel's military has announced the launch of a major offensive aimed at defeating Hamas and securing the freedom of remaining hostages in Gaza.
The Israeli Defense Forces said on its Hebrew X account that it had mobilised troops for "Operation Gideon's Chariots" to seize "strategic areas" of the strip.
Hamas-run civil defence and health ministry officials say Israeli attacks have killed around 250 people since Thursday.
Israel imposed an aid blockade on the strip in March after the breakdown of a two-month ceasefire. Donald Trump, the US president, said on Friday that "a lot of people were starving" in Gaza.
The Israeli military did not use the operational name in similar posts on its English-language X account.
It said it would not stop operating "until Hamas is no longer a threat and all our hostages are home", and had "struck over 150 terror targets throughout the Gaza Strip" in 24 hours.
Israel has intensified its bombardment and built up armoured forces along the border despite growing international pressure to resume ceasefire talks and end its blockade. The launch of the operation appears to suggest all efforts have failed.
The Times of Israel said that "Gideon's Chariots" - a reference to a biblical warrior - would see the IDF take and control territory, move civilians to the south of the strip, attack Hamas and prevent it from taking control of aid supplies.

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, earlier this month said that Israel was preparing an "intense entry into Gaza" to capture and hold territory.
His government said that it would not commence until Trump had completed a tour of the Middle East. The US president left the region on Friday.
UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk has warned that Israel's recent escalation could be considered a breach of international law.
"This latest barrage of bombs, forcing people to move amid the threat of intensified attacks, the methodical destruction of entire neighbourhoods, and the denial of humanitarian assistance underline that there appears to be a push for a permanent demographic shift in Gaza that is in defiance of international law and is tantamount to ethnic cleansing," he said.
US Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the US was "troubled" by the situation.
Victoria Rose, a British reconstructive surgeon working at Nasser hospital in Khan Younis, told the BBC World Service's Weekend programme that her team were "exhausted" and had all lost a "considerable amount of weight".
"The children are really thin," she said. "We've got a lot of youngsters whose teeth have fallen out."
"A lot of them have quite significant burn injuries and with this level of malnutrition they're so much more prone to infection and they've got so much less capacity to heal."
A UN-backed assessment published on Monday found Gaza's population to be at "critical risk" of famine.
The Israeli government has repeatedly rejected claims there is a food shortage in Gaza.
Israel launched a military campaign to destroy Hamas in response to the group's cross-border attack on 7 October 2023, in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 others were taken hostage. Hamas still holds 57.

 

[Carlisle]

So is this just another lengthy round of mass bombings, fighting & deaths or does Israel finally have something resembling a realistic plan to rid Gaza of the Hamas government ?
If not I can’t see Netanyahu lasting much longer as even Mr Trump’s blind loyalty only appears lukewarm lately.

 

[Bungle965]

I notice that Ehud Olmert has just stated on an interview with the BBC that what the Israeli government is doing is “Very close to a war crime“ ( only now?!)
It does feel that finally the major players (France, UK, Canada) are now finally to realise that enough is enough, with Netanyahu stating that they’re going to be on the wrong side of history, presumably if they stayed on the right side they would be complicit with genocide.
Even Trump appears to be sick of Israel, although not the extent of doing anything about it. I think that much is evident with the deal that he has done with the Houthis.

 

[backontrack]

From The Grauniad:

Lammy told MPs: “Yesterday, minister [Bezalel] Smotrich even spoke of Israeli forces ‘cleansing’ Gaza, ‘destroying what’s left’, of resident Palestinians ‘being relocated to third countries’. We must call this what it is. It is extremism. It is dangerous. It is repellent. It is monstrous.”

"We must call this what it is" and then he proceeds to not actually call it what it is... genocide.

 

[brad465]

I notice that Ehud Olmert has just stated on an interview with the BBC that what the Israeli government is doing is “Very close to a war crime“ ( only now?!)
It does feel that finally the major players (France, UK, Canada) are now finally to realise that enough is enough, with Netanyahu stating that they’re going to be on the wrong side of history, presumably if they stayed on the right side they would be complicit with genocide.
Even Trump appears to be sick of Israel, although not the extent of doing anything about it. I think that much is evident with the deal that he has done with the Houthis.

It's now clear to see this is no longer about defeating Hamas (if it even was in the eyes of Netanyahu), and with an impending famine and aid catastrophe reportedly imminent (it's a miracle this hasn't already happened), previous diplomacy with Israel is no longer politically feasible. Trump snubbing Israel on the recent Middle East trip also makes being more critical of Israel by other governments easier.

 

[Bungle965]

It's now clear to see this is no longer about defeating Hamas (if it even was in the eyes of Netanyahu), and with an impending famine and aid catastrophe reportedly imminent (it's a miracle this hasn't already happened), previous diplomacy with Israel is no longer politically feasible. Trump snubbing Israel on the recent Middle East trip also makes being more critical of Israel by other governments easier.

The blockade has supposedly ended now, yet no aid has been delivered according to the UN with completely inevitable results.

UN humanitarian chief, Tom Fletcher, told the BBC earlier that 14,000 babies would die in Gaza in the next 48 hours if aid supplies don't reach them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cq8037dd3p9t

 

[Ediswan]

Something not often mentioned is that deaths from disease and malnutrition are not included in the casualty figures.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10...ed-israel-strikes-buried-body-parts/104259532

The Ministry of Health casualty figures also only include people killed by the conflict, not those who have died from indirect causes like disease and malnutrition.

 

[brad465]

Something not often mentioned is that deaths from disease and malnutrition are not included in the casualty figures.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10...ed-israel-strikes-buried-body-parts/104259532

This would explain how the reported death toll seems rather low, for a small densely populated geographical region that has been bombed into near-oblivion over 18 months, with severe aid restrictions also applied. The official death toll ranges between 35,000-55,000, but some sources like The Lancet think indirect deaths would bring the toll to around 186,000 (from July last year, so would be even higher now):

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28 000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58 260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85 750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024.10

If this higher toll is both true and were more widely reported, then something would have been done much earlier by the international community.

 

[jon0844]

The death toll seemed to stop rising a year ago and now I am convinced it is significantly higher (well over 100,000 and quite possibly nearer 200,000).

I assume the lack of access is why the figures more or less froze, but it seems like some people prefer to quote an obviously out of date number to minimise the severity of the situation.

 

[brad465]

They're really not helping themselves at the moment:

Israel fires 'warning shots' near diplomats in West Bank

Many nations have condemned the Israel military, which says a delegation visiting Jenin deviated from an agreed route.

www.bbc.co.uk

A number of countries have condemned the Israeli military's actions after troops fired warning shots in the vicinity of a diplomatic delegation visiting the occupied West Bank.

The Israeli military accused them of leaving an approved route and said shots were fired into the air "to distance them". It said it "regrets the inconvenience caused".

No injuries were reported in the incident, which happened in the northern city of Jenin, where Israeli security forces have been conducting a major operation against Palestinian armed groups since January.

Spain, Egypt, France, Turkey, Ireland and Italy - some of which had diplomats present - were among the nations to condemn the Israeli troops' actions.

Several countries involved have said they will summon Israeli ambassadors to account for the incident on Wednesday, calling for investigations and explanations.

The Palestinian Authority (PA), which governs parts of the occupied West Bank, has accused the Israeli security forces of deliberately targeting the delegation in a "heinous crime".

It said the group were there on an official visit with Palestinian authorities to "observe and assess the humanitarian situation and document the ongoing violations perpetrated by the [Israeli] occupying forces against the Palestinian people".

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said in a statement that its troops had fired "warning shots" to ensure the delegation did not enter "an area where they were not authorised to be" in Jenin.

It said the diplomats had "deviated from the approved route" and that it "regrets the inconvenience caused" by the incident.

The IDF added it would speak to representatives of the nations involved to update them on the result of an internal investigation into the incident.

 

[ainsworth74]

They're really not helping themselves at the moment:

Israel fires 'warning shots' near diplomats in West Bank

Many nations have condemned the Israel military, which says a delegation visiting Jenin deviated from an agreed route.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think the last time that Israel actually helped themselves was when they unilaterally disengaged from Gaza and removed the Israeli settlers there in 2005. Then Sharon suffers stroke, Olmert takes over wins the 2006 election intending to carry on Sharon's plan to implement similar in the West bank but gets Israel bogged down in Lebanon, his popularity and influence declines and then Netanyahu and Likud win in 2009 and have been in charge ever since (apart from a brief 18 odd month interregnum in 2021/22).

 

[brad465]

The death toll seemed to stop rising a year ago and now I am convinced it is significantly higher (well over 100,000 and quite possibly nearer 200,000).

I assume the lack of access is why the figures more or less froze, but it seems like some people prefer to quote an obviously out of date number to minimise the severity of the situation.

Apparently the full horror of the Holocaust didn't come to light until WW2 ended, as that's when the Allies had full access to everywhere affected. In more recent times the massacre of Bucha in early 2022 came to light only after Russian forces withdrew from the area. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if some very horrific large-scale events, whether genocidal and/or other crimes against humanity, are yet to fully come to light as the outside world doesn't have access to the area.

 

[backontrack]

Apparently the full horror of the Holocaust didn't come to light until WW2 ended, as that's when the Allies had full access to everywhere affected. In more recent times the massacre of Bucha in early 2022 came to light only after Russian forces withdrew from the area. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if some very horrific large-scale events, whether genocidal and/or other crimes against humanity, are yet to fully come to light as the outside world doesn't have access to the area.

Given what has already come to light about Israel's offensive, that's a horror-freezing thought.

 

[Ediswan]

Apparently the full horror of the Holocaust didn't come to light until WW2 ended, as that's when the Allies had full access to everywhere affected. In more recent times the massacre of Bucha in early 2022 came to light only after Russian forces withdrew from the area. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if some very horrific large-scale events, whether genocidal and/or other crimes against humanity, are yet to fully come to light as the outside world doesn't have access to the area.

Unike WWII, there has been a steady stream of reports coming out from local Palestinian journalists. I doubt any large-scale events have gone unreported. More likely, given how much has been happening, numerous unreported small scale events may add up to something larger.

 

[Carlisle]

Olmert takes over wins the 2006 election intending to carry on Sharon's plan to implement similar in the West bank but gets Israel bogged down in Lebanon,

No time for Netanyahu or his extremist government but I’d be surprised if anywhere in the UK would tolerate routine rocket attacks & cross border raids without a military response.
Olmert probably had little choice re.Lebanon given Israel withdrew its occupied security zone about 5 years previously, even if history’s proved his subsequent promises & actions were at best flawed.

 

[brad465]

No time for Netanyahu or his extremist government but I’d be surprised if anywhere in the UK would tolerate routine rocket attacks & cross border raids without a military response.
Olmert probably had little choice re.Lebanon given Israel withdrew its occupied security zone about 5 years previously, even if history’s proved his subsequent promises & actions were at best flawed.

From memory these were the attacks where George W Bush showed what an absolute "genius" he was in diplomacy. He was caught saying to Blair "The irony is, what they really need to do is to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this s**t, and it's over."

 

[yorkie]

No time for Netanyahu or his extremist government but ....

Ah yes, that has a familiar ring to it.

....I’d be surprised if anywhere in the UK would tolerate routine rocket attacks & cross border raids without a military response...

Is this a strange attempt at a false equivalence? If the UK had a far-right regime committing genocide, then your point may be valid, but as we're not behaving in a remotely similar way to the far-right Israeli regime, then it's just a ludicrous comparison.

Put it another way: if a far-right regime was occupying our lands and committing genocide, do you think there is perhaps a possibility that some people may fight back?

Do you have any idea what it could be like to have your homeland occupied and be denied basic amenities?