2023 Israel - Hamas war

[alex397]

Overthrowing a regime does not automatically mean a violent uprising; It is possible through the ballot box, although I agree that means is unlikely in Gaza.

So, what can they do then? They can’t vote because there arn’t elections, and they can’t speak up because they’d be seen as traitors and would likely be silenced. Therefore, it is impossible to know how the majority of Gazans feel

 

[yorkie]

I would go to one of the safe zones marked out by the IDF and admittedly have to trust the enemy to keep me alive.

Hiding at home, blinded and choked by dust - life in Gaza

A journalist films a video diary evacuating from house to house showing the extreme level of dust from air strikes.

www.bbc.co.uk

A journalist from Gaza has been video blogging her experience of living through Israeli airstrikes.

Plestia Alaqad says she had been evacuated several times as nowhere "is safe". In a video diary, she describes difficulty breathing and shows the obscured view from her window blocking the outside world.

Perhaps you can clarify exactly where Plestia Alaqad (along with millions of others) should go?

I truly believe if the Palestinians and others stopped fighting tomorrow there would be peace. If Israel stopped fighting there would be genocide.

Israel is committing genocide:

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-11/inside-gaza-palestinian-journalist-says-its-massacre-complete-genocide

The 22-year-old, who was born and raised in Gaza, shared her heartbreaking story with ITV News after being ousted from her house that was decimated by the bombings...
As a group of men worked with a digger to clear debris to look for those still missing, she described the air strikes as a "massacre" and "a complete genocide."...
Israel has cut off food, water and electricity from the narrow strip of land, which has led to calls for humanitarian corridors to be created into Gaza so that aid can be delivered...

Jewish Voice for Peace calls on all people of conscience to stop imminent genocide - JVP

We can and we must stop this. Never again means never again — for anyone.

www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

The Israeli government has declared a genocidal war on the people of Gaza. As an organization that works for a future where Palestinians and Israelis and all people live in equality and freedom, we call on all people of conscience to stop imminent genocide of Palestinians.

Jewish Voice for Peace mourns deeply for the over 1,200 Israelis killed, the families destroyed, including many of our own, and fears for the lives of Israelis taken hostage. Many are still counting the dead, looking for missing loved ones, devastated by the losses.

We wholeheartedly agree with leading Palestinian rights groups: the massacres committed by Hamas against Israeli civilians are horrific war crimes. There is no justification in international law for the indiscriminate killing of civilians or the holding of civilian hostages.

And now, horrifyingly, the Israeli and American governments are weaponizing these deaths to fuel a genocidal war against Palestinians in Gaza, pledging to “open the gates of hell.” This war is a continuation of the Nakba, when in 1948, tens of thousands of Palestinians fleeing violence sought refuge in Gaza. It’s a continuation of 75 years of Israeli occupation and apartheid.

Already this week, over 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed. The Israeli government has wrought complete and total devastation on Palestinians across Gaza, attacking hospitals, schools, mosques, marketplaces, and apartment buildings....

To those who claimed Israel don't commit war crimes, this is very damning:

Israel/Palestine: Devastating Civilian Toll as Parties Flout Legal Obligations

Palestinian armed groups carried out a deadly assault on October 7, 2023, that killed several hundred Israeli civilians and led to Israeli counterstrikes that killed hundreds of Palestinians.

www.hrw.org

...Israeli authorities’ cutting off electricity to Gaza and other punitive measures against Gaza’s civilian population would amount to unlawful collective punishment, which is a war crime...

The Israeli government’s systematic oppression in the OPT, coupled with inhumane acts committed against Palestinians as part of a policy to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians, amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution, as Human Rights Watch previously found.

(It is a balanced article, which quite rightly also calls out crimes committed by the terrorist group Hamas)

 

[Starmill]

Haaretz, perhaps the most popular traditional paper in Israel, or opinion pieces hosted there, have been telling it so clearly and truthfully:

It’s worth dwelling on the horrifying significance of these remarks. An Israeli prime minister himself knowingly and calculatingly cultivated one of Israel’s most bitter and fanatic foes, an enemy whose declared aim is to destroy the country. And he did it to prevent the horror scenario from his standpoint of a return to Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Netanyahu recklessly gambled on the lives of Israelis, and in fact, last Shabbat, more than 1,000 of them paid the price of that foolish gamble with their lives.

“This government has blood, rivers of blood, on its hands,” Iris Leal justifiably wrote in Haaretz this week, (Haaretz, Oct. 8). But one should acknowledge and clearly and explicitly state that, on the Israeli side, the person bearing the fundamental responsibility for the killing of more than a thousand Israelis by Hamas is Benjamin Netanyahu – its covert ally, as Maj. Gen. Cohen put it, but also an effective and essential one for the Palestinian religious nationalist terrorist organization, at least between 2012 and 2019.

Thanks to the funneling of millions of Qatari dollars to Gaza, with Netanyuhu’s repeated approval as part of a deliberate and malicious policy aimed at nothing other than burying the two-state solution, Hamas acquired inordinate military capabilities within a relatively short time. And that resulted in the current situation, which as I write, has taken the lives of about 1,000 Israelis.

Dimitry Shumsky

Why did Netanyahu want to strengthen Hamas?

***

www.haaretz.com

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

Gideon Levy

Israel can’t imprison two million Gazans without paying a cruel price | Opinion

***

www.haaretz.com

War crimes can be committed not only by people with Kalashnikovs riding Toyota trucks. They can also be committed from defense headquarters in Tel Aviv, or from the pilot’s seat in a fighter plane or helicopter

Michael Sfard

Israelis must maintain their humanity even when their blood boils | Opinion

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Bluejays]

Haaretz, perhaps the most popular traditional paper in Israel, or opinion pieces hosted there, have been telling it so clearly and truthfully:

Dimitry Shumsky

Why did Netanyahu want to strengthen Hamas?

***

www.haaretz.com

Gideon Levy

Israel can’t imprison two million Gazans without paying a cruel price | Opinion

***

www.haaretz.com

Michael Sfard

Israelis must maintain their humanity even when their blood boils | Opinion

***

www.haaretz.com

Pretty brutal, but also pretty fair and accurate articles. 'mr security' Netanyahu has let his country down, and 1300 innocents have paid for his(and his far right partners) mistakes.

Hamas and Netanyahu have both found each other useful idiots for each others cause. A very good article in the guardian earlier, that shows how Hamas blew up the chance and possibility of a decent life for Gazans, followed by Bibi comprehensively extinguishing even the smallest possible embers that could have led to peace

Israelis and Palestinians are facing their moment of greatest danger since 1948 | Yuval Noah Harari

There is still a slim chance for peace if wiser counsels prevail, and all sides come together in a coalition of the willing, says historian Yuval Noah Harari

www.theguardian.com

Israel has just experienced the worst day in its history. More Israeli civilians have been slaughtered in a single day than all the civilians and soldiers Israel lost in the 1956 Sinai war, the 1967 six-day war and the 2006 second Lebanon war combined. The stories and images coming out of the area occupied by Hamas are horrific. Many of my own friends and family members have suffered unspeakable atrocities. This means the Palestinians, too, are now facing immense danger. The most powerful country in the Middle East is livid with pain, fear and anger. I do not have either the knowledge or moral authority to speak about how things look from the Palestinian perspective. But in the moment of Israel’s greatest pain, I would like to issue a warning about how things look from the Israeli side of the fence.

Politics often works like a scientific experiment, conducted on millions of people with few ethical limitations. You try something – whether increasing the welfare budget, electing a populist president or making a peace offer – witness the results, and decide whether to proceed further down that particular path; or you reverse course and try something else. This is how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has unfolded for decades: by trial and error.


During the 1990s Oslo peace process, Israel gave peace a chance. I know that from the viewpoint of Palestinians and some outside observers, Israeli peace offers were insufficient and arrogant, but it was still the most generous offer Israel has ever made. During that peace process, Israel handed partial control of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority. The outcome for Israelis was the worst terror campaign they had experienced until then. Israelis are still haunted by memories of daily life in the early 2000s, with buses and restaurants bombed every day. That terror campaign killed not only hundreds of Israeli civilians, but also the peace process and the Israeli left. Maybe Israel’s peace offer wasn’t generous enough. But was terrorism the only possible response?

After the failure of the peace process, Israel’s next experiment in Gaza was disengagement. In the mid-2000s, Israel unilaterally retreated from the entire Gaza Strip, dismantled all settlements there and returned to the internationally recognised pre-1967 border. True, it continued to impose a partial blockade on the Gaza Strip and to occupy the West Bank. But the withdrawal from Gaza was still a very significant Israeli step, and Israelis waited anxiously to see what the result of that experiment would be. The remnants of the Israeli left hoped that the Palestinians would make an honest attempt to turn Gaza into a prosperous and peaceful city state, a Middle Eastern Singapore, showing to the world and to the Israeli right what the Palestinians could do when given the opportunity to govern themselves.


Sure, it is difficult to build a Singapore under a partial blockade. But an honest attempt could still have been made, in which case there would have been greater pressure on the Israeli government from both foreign powers and the Israeli public to remove the blockade from Gaza and to reach an honourable deal about the West Bank as well. Instead, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and turned it into a terrorist base from which repeated attacks were launched on Israeli civilians. Another experiment ended in failure.

This completely discredited the remnants of the Israeli left, and brought to power Benjamin Netanyahu and his hawkish governments. Netanyahu pioneered another experiment. Since peaceful coexistence had failed, he adopted a policy of violent coexistence. Israel and Hamas traded blows on a weekly basis and almost every year there was a major military operation, but for a decade and a half, Israeli civilians could go on living within a few hundred metres from Hamas bases on the other side of the fence. Even Israel’s messianic zealots showed little zeal to reconquer the Gaza Strip, and even rightwingers hoped that the responsibilities involved in ruling more than 2 million people would gradually moderate Hamas.

Indeed, many on the Israeli right saw Hamas as a better partner than the Palestinian Authority. This was because Israeli hawks wanted to go on controlling the West Bank, and feared a peace deal. Hamas seemed to offer the Israeli right the best of all worlds: relieving Israel of the need to govern the Gaza Strip, without making any peace offers that might dislocate Israeli control of the West Bank. The day of horror Israel has just experienced signals the end of the Netanyahu experiment in violent coexistence.

So what comes next? No one knows for sure, but some voices in Israel are veering towards reconquering the Gaza Strip or bombing it to rubble. The result of such policy could be the worst humanitarian crisis the region has experienced since 1948. Especially if Hezbollah and Palestinian forces in the West Bank join the fray, the death toll could reach many thousands, with millions more driven from their homes. On both sides of the fence, there are religious fanatics fixated on divine promises and the 1948 war. Palestinians dream of reversing the outcome of that war. Jewish zealots like the finance minister Bezalel Smotrich have warned even Arab citizens of Israel that “you are here by mistake because Ben-Gurion [Israel’s first prime minister] didn’t finish the job in ’48 and didn’t kick you out”; 2023 could enable fanatics on both sides to pursue their religious fantasies, and re-stage the 1948 war with a vengeance.
Even if things don’t go to such extremes, the current conflict is likely to put the last nail in the coffin of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. The kibbutzim along the Gaza border have been socialist communes and some of the most tenacious bastions of the Israeli left. I know people from those kibbutzim who, after years of almost daily rocket attacks from Gaza, still clung to the hope of peace, as if to a religious cult. These kibbutzim have just been obliterated, and some of the last peaceniks are either murdered, burying their loved ones, or held hostage in Gaza. For example, Vivian Silver, a peace activist from Kibbutz Be’eri who for years has been transporting ailing Gazans to Israeli hospitals, is missing and likely held hostage in Gaza.

What has already happened cannot be undone. The dead cannot be brought back to life, and the personal traumas will never completely heal. But we must prevent further escalation. Many of the forces in the region are currently led by irresponsible religious fanatics. External forces must therefore intervene to deescalate the conflict. Anyone who wishes for peace must unequivocally condemn the Hamas atrocities, put pressure on Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release all the hostages , and help deter Hezbollah and Iran from intervening. This would give Israelis a bit of breathing space and a tiny ray of hope.

Second, a coalition of the willing – ranging from the US and the EU to Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority – should take responsibility for the Gaza Strip away from Hamas, rebuild Gaza and simultaneously completely disarm Hamas and demilitarise the Gaza Strip.

There are only slim chances that these steps will be realised. But after the recent horrors, most Israelis don’t think they can live with anything less.

I do think the best idea I've seen today was a Facebook post quoted by aljazeera. Someone had suggested that Israel ask Hamas if they want to swap Ben gvir and smotrich for the Gaza hostages. If only that were possible, maybe Benji could be thrown in as the sweetener to push the deal over the line.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not a fan of Netanyahu especially, I consider him militant, but this current crisis was, unambiguously, started by Hamas.

I think lots of Israeli citizens will settle on a disagreement with this view once Likud are punished at the polls and the PM's career is over.

I think this editorial view will be more popular as time goes on:

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.

Netanyahu bears responsibility | Editorial

***

www.haaretz.com

None of this implies a support for the murderous tactics of the violent extremists in Hamas. Nor does it imply an antisemitic approach.

 

[renegademaster]

One of the worst things Bibi did was trading 1000 Jailed Palestians, numerous on life sentences, for one IDF soldier.

 

[Bluejays]

One of the worst things Bibi did was trading 1000 Jailed Palestians, numerous on life sentences, for one IDF soldier.

Current Hamas leader in the strip Sinwar was among them I believe.

 

[brad465]

I do wonder if all the Governments collectively supporting Israel and denouncing any pro-Palestine protests/voices, as if pro-Palestine and pro-Hamas are the same thing, is actually only going to enhance discontent towards the Israeli regime and lead to more demands to reach some peace settlement like the 2-state solution or similar. Populations don't normally like their government forcing particular views upon them, especially when they know it's not as simple as what they are trying to portray. Edward Luce of the FT did an opinion piece that suggests Biden would be better off trying to break the cycle of violence, and highlights pro-Israel support is not as high as it used to be:

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on.ft.com

The temptation is to offer Israel’s leader unconditional support but it would be wiser to try to break the cycle of violence

 

[Starmill]

I do wonder if all the Governments collectively supporting Israel and denouncing any pro-Palestine protests/voices, as if pro-Palestine and pro-Hamas are the same thing, is actually only going to enhance discontent towards the Israeli regime and lead to more demands to reach some peace settlement like the 2-state solution or similar. Populations don't normally like their government forcing particular views upon them, especially when they know it's not as simple as what they are trying to portray. Edward Luce of the FT did an opinion piece that suggests Biden would be better off trying to break the cycle of violence, and highlights pro-Israel support is not as high as it used to be:

Subscribe to the Financial Times

A subscription to the Financial Times provides you with the insights and perspective you need to succeed, now.

on.ft.com

A quote from AOC (a representative in the US House) put this point very succinctly:

We cannot starve nearly a million children to death over the horrific actions of Hamas, whose disregard for Israeli, Palestinian, and human life overall could not be more clear.

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1712510149099704785?t=bL_hpR1m6juAUtJb34OkhA&s=19

 

[yorkie]

I wondered if this belongs elsewhere but I think this is the most suitable thread for it:

FA's Israel-Gaza tribute met with criticism and support

The FA has "tried to make the best decision with good intentions" over tributes to those who have died in Israel and Gaza, according to Gareth Southgate.

www.bbc.co.uk

The Football Association has "tried to make the best decision with good intentions" over tributes to those who have died in Israel and Gaza, according to England manager Gareth Southgate.

Players will wear black armbands during Friday's match between England and Australia and a period of silence will be held in order to respect "the innocent victims of the devastating events in Israel and Palestine".
The FA has chosen not to light up the Wembley arch with the colours of the Israeli flag.

A wise decision by the FA to respect all victims and not to be seen as suggesting some matter more than others; however....

Secretary of state for culture, media and sport Lucy Frazer has called that decision "disappointing".

Government minister Frazer criticised the FA's decision not light up the arch on X, formerly known as Twitter, saying: "It is especially disappointing in light of the FA's bold stance on other terrorist attacks in the recent past. Words and actions matter. The Government is clear: we stand with Israel."

...the Tories are determined to make themselves even more unpopular among ordinary people who aren't into their right wing rhetoric, aren't they?

No surprise the Tories are keen to align themselves with Israel's right wing rulers.

They have made me more determined than ever to vote them out; I hope others feel the same way.

I also hope that the good people of Israel can vote out their far-right rulers when they get the next opportunity.

Right wing rhetoric amplifies extremism; it does not solve anything.



This latest news is utterly crazy and disgraceful:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916

1. The UN says it has been told by Israel that everyone in north Gaza should relocate to the south in the next 24 hours
2. The area includes densely populated Gaza City and will affect about 1.1 million people - around half of the Gaza Strip's population
3. The UN warns the move would lead to "devastating humanitarian consequences" and has called on Israel to rescind evacuation orders
4. Israel's military has directly addressed Gaza City residents, telling them to leave for their "safety and protection"
5. The warning comes as Israel is expected to launch a ground offensive into Gaza to root out militant group Hamas
6. Hamas kidnapped at least 150 people and took them into Gaza during deadly attacks on Israel at the weekend that killed 1,300 people
7. More than 1,400 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched retaliatory air strikes, Palestinian health officials say
8. The bombardment comes amid a total blockade. Israel says it won't lift the restrictions unless Hamas frees all hostages
9. Aid agencies say Gaza is facing a "dire" situation with food and water quickly running out and 50,000 pregnant women unable to access essential services

Does anyone here still support the actions of Israel, in disregard of the UN?

 

[Falcon1200]

Does anyone here still support the actions of Israel, in disregard of the UN?

Support, no; By continuing the assault on Gaza Israel is simply creating more anguish and hatred (and therefore support for Hamas). But understand, yes; What Hamas has done in the last few days is utterly beyond the pale, and while scores of Israelis are held hostage by Hamas, under who knows what conditions, Israel's determination to get them back and destroy Hamas is indeed understandable, while not acceptable.

I accept that Israel has played a huge part in creating the conditions under which Hamas has flourished, however the people of Israel will at least have the democratic right to replace their Government, whereas, as mentioned above the people of Gaza are stuck with Hamas. But unless Israel chooses, or is somehow persuaded, to end or at least scale down their assault on Gaza, there will be no end to violence in the region and no chance of peace. Innocents on both sides are suffering grievously.

 

[Bantamzen]

I fear for what is going to happen next, because it is bound to escalate not only there but around the world.

Its a stupid war, instigated by stupid people, during a stupid centuries old feud, over a stupid scratty bit of land that some idiot decided would be designated a "holy land" and millions have died for it ever since. This conflict is everything bad about humanity rolled up into a big ball of murderous stupidity. There won't be a resolution because the stupid people running the war on all sides don't want it to end. There are no good guys in this, only a mixture of bad guys and their victims.

If ever we needed the Vulcans to show up First Contact style (a reference to a Star Trek movie in case anyone doesn't understand it), it is right about now...

 

[Bluejays]

. Warning civilians that moving from North to South would be a good idea - right and proper in my opinion, although not as good as offering them a route out of conflict


. Using that warning as an excuse to treat anyone remaining in northern Gaza as a combatant - would be vile, hideous and completely unacceptable in my opinion.

* the extreme logistical challenges are of course a huge aggravating factor. In that this may well be a 'request' that is virtually impossible for the people to actually fulfill. It certainly looks like it could be a request that is in effect almost impossible for people to comply with. But I don't know enough about the territory to really comment on that with certainty.



The games that Israel and Egypt are playing with each other are very poor. The US should have stepped in strongly and demanded a resolution. Temporary refugee camp on the Egyptian side would be the best idea. But the Egyptians are telling the Gazans to stay out , and Israel and the US evidently refusing to give Egypt a firm commitment that any Palestinian moving to a camp would be allowed back to Gaza. In my opinion that's surely a case where the US should have made the demand from both sides. Here's what's going to happen, if you don't both agree we withdraw our support for Israel and our aid to Egypt.

To effectively trap civilians in a warzone, then make demands that they leave(but to where) is really wrong.




After seeing more about this fence breach, I'm starting to think we are going to need some kind of international force in the border area in future to stop this happening again. The fence was blown with rockets , before being charged by nearly 1500. Without being on a full war footing constantly it would be nearly impossible to guard against the possibility of that happening again.

 

[nw1]

I think lots of Israeli citizens will settle on a disagreement with this view once Likud are punished at the polls and the PM's career is over.

As I said I am no fan of Netanyahu and would much prefer a moderate in power. The blanket blockading of supplies into Gaza has caused my opinion of him to drop still further.

What I was trying to say was that the first violent act of the current round of violence was done by Hamas. Thus, they "started it". However, and I want to make that absolutely clear, this does not excuse Netanyahu's extreme and violent action of vengeance.

Israel/Palestine would be much better off without Hamas and without Netanyahu.

The other problem we have, as I said above, is the obsession with partisanship on both sides from people in the West. You have to be either pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. Too many believe that condemning Hamas makes you anti-Palestinian or condemning Netanyahu makes you anti-semitic. Neither is true. The correct view, IMO, is to be able to freely condemn actors from both sides, as appropriate, when acts of violence are carried out.

 

[yorkie]

As I said I am no fan of Netanyahu and would much prefer a moderate in power. The blanket blockading of supplies into Gaza has caused my opinion of him to drop still further.

What I was trying to say was that the first violent act of the current round of violence was done by Hamas. Thus, they "started it". However, and I want to make that absolutely clear, this does not excuse Netanyahu's extreme and violent action of vengeance.

Violence has been ongoing for years; you can't just randomly pick a point and say it 'started' there. Also, the actions of any terrorist organisation do not in any way enable a state to further oppress civilians, use illegal weapons, and commit war crimes.

I'm sure many occupying forces in the past, who have been oppressing a population, would have used acts by the people they are oppressing as justification to say 'they started it!'; it is simply absurd.

Of course the actions of Hamas are deeply disturbing and not justifiable but the root cause is the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Israel/Palestine would be much better off without Hamas and without Netanyahu.

Evidently.

The other problem we have, as I said above, is the obsession with partisanship on both sides from people in the West. You have to be either pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. Too many believe that condemning Hamas makes you anti-Palestinian or condemning Netanyahu makes you anti-semitic. Neither is true. The correct view, IMO, is to be able to freely condemn actors from both sides, as appropriate, when acts of violence are carried out.

I agree with this part; it is absolutely clear that the Palestinian people are the ones suffering the most and that the state of Israel has been oppressing them for many years, but none of this justifies the actions of Hamas. The actions of Hamas in no way justify the actions of Israel. But you must look at conditions inside Israel vs conditions inside Gaza to look at the bigger picture, which is that - overall - Palestinians are effectively treated as second class citizens, have been for a long time, and are likely to be for the foreseeable future. That needs to change.

Support, no; By continuing the assault on Gaza Israel is simply creating more anguish and hatred (and therefore support for Hamas). But understand, yes; What Hamas has done in the last few days is utterly beyond the pale, and while scores of Israelis are held hostage by Hamas, under who knows what conditions, Israel's determination to get them back and destroy Hamas is indeed understandable, while not acceptable.

I accept that Israel has played a huge part in creating the conditions under which Hamas has flourished, however the people of Israel will at least have the democratic right to replace their Government, whereas, as mentioned above the people of Gaza are stuck with Hamas. But unless Israel chooses, or is somehow persuaded, to end or at least scale down their assault on Gaza, there will be no end to violence in the region and no chance of peace. Innocents on both sides are suffering grievously.

I am unsure exactly what distinction you are saying here. If you 'understand' these appalling acts by Israel, are you saying you also 'understand' the actions of Hamas? Do you condone illegal acts?

If you oppress people to the extent that the Palestinians have been oppressed, then it is predictable that some of the oppressed are going to react in an extreme way.

Whether or not you 'understand' the illegal actions of Israel, do you see that if Israel continues down their far-right path, they are going to increase suffering, hatred, and this only serves to perpetuate and worsen the situation?

 

[Mojo]

A wise decision by the FA to respect all victims and not to be seen as suggesting some matter more than others; however....

The problem being that the FA have already “virtue signalled” on this matter in the recent past, lighting up Wembley Stadium in the colours of Ukraine, Belgium, France, and Turkey. So why are they not also doing the same for a terrorist attack in Israel?

For an organisation that encourages and supports to “to take the knee” as a gesture of anti-racism, and one which has actively in the past supported the belief that “black lives matter;” chickening out with a black armband is frankly pathetic and analogous to saying “all lives matter” in response to “black lives matter,” which is completely missing the point.

 

[Meerkat]

If the Gazans won’t remove Hamas then Israel will inevitably, and understandably, try to do that themselves. They are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties but its hard to avoid civilian casualties if the enemy hide amongst and under its civilians. It’s alleged that their headquarters is under the main hospital.
Hamas must go or this cycle will never end. They use their people as cannon fodder and they use resources To attack Israel rather than advance their own people. What kind of madmen attack the country that supplies a quarter of their water and most of their electricity?

 

[yorkie]

The problem being that the FA have already “virtue signalled” on this matter in the recent past, lighting up Wembley Stadium in the colours of Ukraine, Belgium, France, and Turkey. So why are they not also doing the same for a terrorist attack in Israel?

That can be a problem because they then get into a situation of taking 'sides'; in some cases e.g. Ukraine then it is absolutely clear that Russia is the aggressor, but in other cases it may not be clear-cut.

For an organisation that encourages and supports to “to take the knee” as a gesture of anti-racism, and one which has actively in the past supported the belief that “black lives matter;” chickening out with a black armband is frankly pathetic and analogous to saying “all lives matter” in response to “black lives matter,” which is completely missing the point.

Black Lives Matter can be quite a toxic group (especially in the US); I suspect they later regretted becoming involved.

It would have been better not to get into any of this, but in some cases it would be difficult to avoid 'suporting' any particular cause; there are no easy answers.

But the right decision this time, for sure.

 

[Mojo]

Black Lives Matter can be quite a toxic group (especially in the US); I suspect they later regretted becoming involved.

Note that I said “black lives matter” and not “Black Lives Matter,” but I agree with you that it is an organisation of dubious repute.

 

[yorkie]

If the Gazans won’t remove Hamas then Israel will inevitably, and understandably, try to do that themselves.

That's not realistically going to be possible; the way Israel are going about things is going to create even more anger and more extremism.

They are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties but its hard to avoid civilian casualties if the enemy hide amongst and under its civilians. It’s alleged that their headquarters is under the main hospital.

THey are not trying very hard; there are huge numbers of casualties and everyone - even if not physically hurt - in Gaza is suffering.

Hamas must go or this cycle will never end. They use their people as cannon fodder and they use resources To attack Israel rather than advance their own people.

I suggest you also look at what Israel is doing

What kind of madmen attack the country that supplies a quarter of their water and most of their electricity?

Clearly Hamas are 'madmen' but does it not occur to you that the more extreme Israel's actions are, the more angry people get and the easier it is for terrorists to recruit more people into their ranks?

As for the remark about ' the country that supplies a quarter of their water and most of their electricity', I think that demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part.

 

[Bantamzen]

If the Gazans won’t remove Hamas then Israel will inevitably, and understandably, try to do that themselves. They are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties but its hard to avoid civilian casualties if the enemy hide amongst and under its civilians. It’s alleged that their headquarters is under the main hospital.
Hamas must go or this cycle will never end. They use their people as cannon fodder and they use resources To attack Israel rather than advance their own people. What kind of madmen attack the country that supplies a quarter of their water and most of their electricity?

Here's the problem though, what if they don't want to remove Hamas? What if they feel safer with Hamas between them and Israel? Do you then remove the people of Gaza from the equation just in case they step into the boots of Hamas if they were removed.

One thing I've learnt over the years is that it is not simply a case of "get rid of A, B and C" and the end is in sight. That mistake has been made before, and only made things ten times worse. The feelings across the Islamic world towards how Israel handles the situation seems to run very deep, and "taking down Hamas" may not solve anything.

What the solution is I have no idea, but don't get fooled into thinking this is a simple binary solution that Israel's armed forces can roll into Gaza and make go away.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem in so-called Western "Christian" nations is the view that in the 21st century, religion is more and more viewed as an irrelevance but in the Jewish state of Israel and in the Sunni and Shia nations of the Islamic world, such "modernistic" beliefs do not exist amongst the populace at large. This is why much modern commentary from Western nations need to understand when they discuss the situation in the Middle East.

 

[Yew]

That's not realistically going to be possible; the way Israel are going about things is going to create even more anger and more extremism.

I can think of no more effective way to boost Hamas recruitment than by the IDF launching rockets at apartment blocks.

 

[kristiang85]

The cynic in me is thinking that this is all part of a larger play to get Iran. The US in particular has been wanting to neutralise Iran for years, and Israel has never been comfortable with Iran's intentions either. But Iran have always stayed just the right side of the line to not be drawn into any conflict.

Now this attack happens - allegedly a complete surprise to Israel and the US, who have some of the world's most sophisticated intelligence and surveillance deployed in Gaza. Egypt said it warned Israel, who ignored it (which again seems odd if true, as Israel are incredibly paranoid about threats).

Now maybe the scale of the terrorist attack might have surprised Israel, but what if they let it happen and agreed with the US that any reprisals will bring Iran out of their shell and give reason to attack them? I can almost see a nuclear dossier being issued soon to give even more reason...

 

[Bluejays]

Christian Fraser on the BBC context programme made a good point yesterday. 'if anyone wonders what would happen to people challenging Hamas rule, have a look what they did to the Fatah forces that tried '.

The answer of course was mass killings. It's a big ask to expect the civilians of Gaza to attempt the same. They'd be like lambs to the slaughter

 

[yorkie]

Christian Fraser on the BBC context programme made a good point yesterday. 'if anyone wonders what would happen to people challenging Hamas rule, have a look what they did to the Fatah forces that tried '.

The answer of course was mass killings. It's a big ask to expect the civilians of Gaza to attempt the same. They'd be like lambs to the slaughter

Indeed. The people who suggested that were, in my opinion, just blurting it out without thought or consideration for the practicalities.

 

[GS250]

Note that I said “black lives matter” and not “Black Lives Matter,” but I agree with you that it is an organisation of dubious repute.

Sadly identity politics has had the effect of dividing people even more than they already are. By design? Wouldn't put it past the 'top table' so to speak!

The problem in so-called Western "Christian" nations is the view that in the 21st century, religion is more and more viewed as an irrelevance but in the Jewish state of Israel and in the Sunni and Shia nations of the Islamic world, such "modernistic" beliefs do not exist amongst the populace at large. This is why much modern commentary from Western nations need to understand when they discuss the situation in the Middle East.

And also....how the future of the UK and Europe will look with far more religious groups settling and establishing power bases. Let's face it, the West is at the crossroads. Today's Palestine tomorrows Europe?

 

[Starmill]

Christian Fraser on the BBC context programme made a good point yesterday. 'if anyone wonders what would happen to people challenging Hamas rule, have a look what they did to the Fatah forces that tried '.

The answer of course was mass killings. It's a big ask to expect the civilians of Gaza to attempt the same. They'd be like lambs to the slaughter

Any groups of Gazans who spoke out loudly against Hamas would receive neither protection nor practical support in building a new democratic state from those who are suggesting this course of action.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, Hamas are a small but murderous gang with no scruples. They will maim or kill anyone whom they see as an enemy, regardless of whether they're Jewish or Arab, Palestinian or Israeli. Or indeed anyone at all, including citizens from around the whole world who are in Gaza working on UN education or health programmes, or journalists.

 

[156421]

The problem being that the FA have already “virtue signalled” on this matter in the recent past, lighting up Wembley Stadium in the colours of Ukraine, Belgium, France, and Turkey. So why are they not also doing the same for a terrorist attack in Israel?

For an organisation that encourages and supports to “to take the knee” as a gesture of anti-racism, and one which has actively in the past supported the belief that “black lives matter;” chickening out with a black armband is frankly pathetic and analogous to saying “all lives matter” in response to “black lives matter,” which is completely missing the point.

I wrote to the Premier League asking if they would virtue signal before next round of fixtures to be consistent with some/all of these examples... no response expected of course. The one that I really couldn't grasp was playing the French anthem before all Premier League games (due to a terrorist attack in Paris) but after a terrorist attack in the UK, rather than our own anthem it was: "don't look back in anger".

 

[Sorcerer]

Having roughly kept up with a fair bit of this thread since it's creation while also choosing not to comment, and having heard a few arguments from each side, I feel like I'm decently informed enough now to say that while Hamas are most certainly a violent group that have committed awful atrocities against innocent people over the past week, they are ultimately a symptom of the wider problem, not the cause of it. Therefore even if Israel are successful in wiping them off the face of the Earth, another faction will eventually rise up to take their place if things do not change, and knowing that Hamas was wiped out in spite of their brutality, they will crank it up to eleven knowing that it wasn't enough for their cause. Meanwhile countless innocent people, both Israeli and Palestinian, will continue the suffer because of it. Therefore it's safe to say that things need to change regardless of what side you take on this issue.