2023 Israel - Hamas war

[21C101]

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[Coolzac]

Possible Major Escalation. Reports that Hizbollah have fully mobilized near Israels Northern Border

Fully mobilised? That sounds bad. Where did you get these reports?

 

[Meerkat]

Yes you keep repeating that but it doesn't change the facts.

Do you deny that Israel will continually ensure that disproportionately more deaths will be inflicted for retaliation purposes?

Terrorist organisations are rightly condemned but no state should act in this way; this isn't defence, this is retaliation and oppression by a state.

By behaving in such a manner they are only going to increase the response from terrorists; it's completely counter productive and disgusting for any state to behave in such a way.

Israel are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties, Hamas deliberately targeted civilians, the elderly, and children.
Any attempt at equivalence is grotesque.

Leaving all questions of ethics and morality aside. I am trying to work out what exactly Hamas are trying to achieve by doing this since they can't hope to win a military battle.

The only thing I can think it is a Grotesque trolling strategy to provoke Israel into an equally grotesque overreaction causing a grade 1 humanitarian disaster in Gaza with the purpose of claiming genocide and widening the conflict (with no regards by Hamas for the welfare of those they govern to put it mildly).

Based on reports this morning, I fear Israel may take the bait, whether others do remains to be seen.

How this will interplay with Russia /Ukraine (or how much it already is behind the scenes) remains to be seen.

Russia wants a diversion of attention, money, and weapons. So it encouraged its ally Iran, who want to stop an Israeli peace deal with the Saudis, to tell its puppets Hamas to sacrifice their children yet again.

In terms of Israel overreacting it’s hard to see how they can’t. In relative population terms this is like one terrorist event killing over 6,000 UK citizens. No government is going to survive telling its people they wont smash the people who did it.

Hopefully Hezbollah are just going through the minimum performance needed for the optics. I don’t think either side want a big war - Hezbollah have their hands full helping the Syrian government out and plenty of Lebanese would be happy to see Hezbollah get knocked down.

 

[Mogster]

It’s interesting that the IDF is still reported to be struggling to overcome groups of Hamas fighters. I suppose they may be holding out with hostages as human shields, otherwise it’s hard to understand what’s actually going on. It’s certainly a very bad situation for the Israelis.

I struggle to see how Russia isn’t the main benefactor from all of this. It’s certainly a major distraction from Ukraine for the US.

 

[Falcon1200]

Israel are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties, Hamas deliberately targeted civilians, the elderly, and children.

Yes, and in view of the history of violence directed at Jews, throughout the ages but most especially in the mid-twentieth century, it is hardly surprising that Israel's response to an organisation devoted to the utter destruction of both the country and its people is as ferocious as it is, and will continue to be.

Every death, whether of Israelis or Palestinian civilians, simply creates more hatred and anger and I cannot see any hope for a peaceful solution, acceptable to all sides, any time soon.

 

[Coolzac]

Meanwhile, it's been reported that in Australia in Sydney a Pro-Palestinian protest has been reported in chanting 'gas the Jews'. No other group of people in the world has this. No other country has to fight so hard for its existence. No other country is judged as harshly as Israel for it's mistakes. Can you imagine if we in Britain suffered a terrorist attack killing thousands of people, and then in the aftermath has protests against us around the world, calling for our destruction and that actually we should all be murdered? I can't imagine what Israelis and Jews around the world are going through right now

 

[dakta]

This is why I don't think there's equivalency, as much as it gets pushed.

If someone wants you wiped off the planet, and will accept nothing less, every death doesn't really create more anger, it just creates excuses. An example of that would be the new threats against the hostages 'retaliate and we retaliate'. 'if you bomb us we'll kill hostages' even though the only reason they're being bombed right now is because they've killed civilians. Even if Israel didn't respond I think we can be safe to say the rocket attacks would continue, so I don't think it's a case of anger, just using excuses for optics as they do what they were going to do anyway.


Typically you would want the peace route, but reason went out of the window when civillians became the target.

 

[nw1]

Possible Major Escalation. Reports that Hizbollah have fully mobilized near Israels Northern Border.

Also reports that preparations are being made for Palestinian President Abbas to visit Russia.

A monumentally self-defeating act if so.

Anyone who associates with Putin deserves zero sympathy.

Meanwhile, it's been reported that in Australia in Sydney a Pro-Palestinian protest has been reported in chanting 'gas the Jews'. No other group of people in the world has this. No other country has to fight so hard for its existence. No other country is judged as harshly as Israel for it's mistakes. Can you imagine if we in Britain suffered a terrorist attack killing thousands of people, and then in the aftermath has protests against us around the world, calling for our destruction and that actually we should all be murdered? I can't imagine what Israelis and Jews around the world are going through right now

Maybe the vile idiots who said this should realise it was Hamas who started this crisis. Oh, and maybe they should be forced to watch Schindler's List.

I'm not a fan of Netanyahu especially, I consider him militant, but this current crisis was, unambiguously, started by Hamas.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I'm not a fan of Netanyahu especially, I consider him militant, but this current crisis was, unambiguously, started by Hamas.

'Current' crisis? Is it not a sad continuation of the crisis since the Palestinians lost their lands and were uncermoniously dumped in Gaza?

 

[BananaRepublic]

Sky TV News, ran an unedited live stream yesterday evening, following the pro-Palestinian March in London.
[Edit: Obviously I cannot provide a link to a live, rolling broadcast, that isn't available on the Sky player]

It’s been reported that something like 5,000 took part.
It lasted for about 30 or so minutes with almost no interruptions, not even for adverts and was all raw footage as the camera crew walked alongside and up and down the March, hastily at times, as it made its way to Downing st.
No slick editing, a continuous rolling transmission with the camera view moving anround and the picture occasionally bouncing and jiggling around.
You could even hear the crew talking and discussing what they were going to do and referring to where other TV crews were (BBC etc).

There was more than enough visual evidence over the duration of this live stream, that something like 85 to 90% of those taking part were of Middle Eastern, North African and similar ethnicity.
Nothing wrong with that in itself. There’s a large population of such people in London.

The relentless chanting and slogans predominately repeated the Hamas mantras that represent their fierce objective of completely eliminating the Israeli state.
The minority of other young people you could see, who were not of the same demographic and appeared to be middle class students, seem oblivious to the fact they’re supporting movements who are almost certainly diametrically opposed to the left leaning, social justice orientated values I would assume they subscribe to.

In light of the last few day’s horrific events, I find it abhorrent that people are just pushing it all aside and offering their support to this appalling movement.

 

[dakta]

'Current' crisis? Is it not a sad continuation of the crisis since the Palestinians lost their lands and were uncermoniously dumped in Gaza?

How about the current crisis in which Israel, without acting, had it's civillians taken and killed? Without the dramatics, you know what was meant.

Just to give some kind of scale to this 'crisis' - on Yahoo news is a report of a grandmother having her phone removed, being filmed during the murder before said recordings being to her own facebook wall. This is bad for badness sake and is a world apart from the hurt of war.

 

[Parjon]

In light of the last few day’s horrific events, I find it abhorrent that people are just pushing it all aside and offering their support to this appalling movement.

Agreed. Those who attended should be identifed and arrested. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Plus those taking part were clearly inciting and threatening racial and religious violence.

Those with their what-aboutery need to take a long hard look at themselves.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

How about the current crisis in which Israel, without acting, had it's civillians taken and killed? Without the dramatics, you know what was meant.

Israel has been killing and maiming Palestinians for years but these atrocities haven't had the media coverage....

 

[dakta]

If they were, I wouldn't attempt resolve it by killing someones grandma.

 

[DarloRich]

there is a definite blind spot on parts the British left in relation to Palestine. Look at Corbyn, cant condemn Hamas and instead tries to mealy mouth it to avoid direct criticism and draw false equivalency. Very poor and very confused.

 

[Coolzac]

Israel has been killing and maiming Palestinians for years but these atrocities haven't had the media coverage....

I'm not going to defend everything that Israel does, but it doesn't deliberately kill civilians.

As someone else said, the whataboutery here is absolutely appalling.

Hamas has just deliberately and indiscriminately murdered almost a thousand innocent civilians, including children, women and old. Some of the videos I have seen have just been indescribably inhumane. If you could point to Israel doing anything similar, please do.

there is a definite blind spot on parts the British left in relation to Palestine. Look at Corbyn, cant condemn Hamas and instead tries to mealy mouth it to avoid direct criticism and draw false equivalency. Very poor and very confused.

Absolutely, and unfortunately a lot of it is anti-Semitism disguised as being anti-Israel. A lot on the left don't seem to look in the mirror and wonder why they have such a blind spot towards the only Jewish majority country.

 

[nw1]

'Current' crisis? Is it not a sad continuation of the crisis since the Palestinians lost their lands and were uncermoniously dumped in Gaza?

So that justifies the current kidnapping and murder of innocent Israeli civilians?

If a re-formed IRA were to do the same with random British citizens right now, would that be anything other than the IRA's fault? (and I say that as someone who does have some sympathies towards a united Ireland, but violence is of course not the way to achieve it).

there is a definite blind spot on parts the British left in relation to Palestine. Look at Corbyn, cant condemn Hamas and instead tries to mealy mouth it to avoid direct criticism and draw false equivalency. Very poor and very confused.

"Alt-left", you'd call it, I guess, and in some ways, perhaps not so different to the alt-right. The George Galloway lot, perhaps; often highly small-c conservative on other issues - Galloway has of course shown some tendency to mess around with politicians firmly regarded as being on the right.

Perhaps some overlap with the group who have some sympathy towards Putin, seemingly failing to realise he is an ultra-right-winger, if anything. Starting with fanatical homophobia, Putin's attitude of course goes all the way up to violent imperialism, scarcely a left-wing trait at all.

A group that seems to take an automatic "anti-Western" view on just about everything.

 

[GS250]

I was back in London yesterday afternoon and evening. More specifically Mayfair then Kensington. Some of the language and slogans that I saw of those heading to the Israeli embassy to protest was shocking. And these looked like fairly wealthy types probably with money and influence.

If there was to be an escalation and we became involved, the potential for major civil disorder here would be huge.

 

[Herefordian]

Meanwhile, it's been reported that in Australia in Sydney a Pro-Palestinian protest has been reported in chanting 'gas the Jews'. No other group of people in the world has this. No other country has to fight so hard for its existence. No other country is judged as harshly as Israel for it's mistakes. Can you imagine if we in Britain suffered a terrorist attack killing thousands of people, and then in the aftermath has protests against us around the world, calling for our destruction and that actually we should all be murdered? I can't imagine what Israelis and Jews around the world are going through right now

My best friend and three of his daughters (13, 10 and 9 years old) are Jewish.

He, his eldest and other members of their local Jewish community regularly receive anti-semitic abuse. None of them condone Israel's actions against Palestine.

It is beyond shameful that in this day and age, Jewish institutions and communities around the world require security and police protection.

Anyone who disregards the actions of Hamas by saying "but Israel have done X/Y/Z" should be ashamed.

Israel isn't innocent by any stretch. But nothing they've done compares to the heinous acts committed by Hamas.

 

[nw1]

I was back in London yesterday afternoon and evening. More specifically Mayfair then Kensington. Some of the language and slogans that I saw of those heading to the Israeli embassy to protest was shocking. And these looked like fairly wealthy types probably with money and influence.

If there was to be an escalation and we became involved, the potential for major civil disorder here would be huge.

In particular I don't understand why people are protesting against Israel, when Israel did not start the current crisis, as in, the one ongoing for the past few days.
People should be protesting against the bloodthirsty tactics used by Hamas instead.

While I have some sympathy for the Palestinian cause, I have zero sympathy for murderers such as Hamas.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Israel has been killing and maiming Palestinians for years but these atrocities haven't had the media coverage....

That's appalling whataboutary false equivalence and a total distortion of reality.
The vast majority of the unfortunate Palestinian deaths that have occurred, have been as a direct result and consequence of violent actions directed at predominately civilian Israeli targets.
You can accuse the response often being wrongly, way over the top, resulting in innocent Palestinian civilians being killed or mamed, but that's totally different from a systematic policy of unprovoked violence against a population.

There will be exceptions to this, which is inevitable in such a volatile situation and the handling of people over the settlements issues has been horrendous and unjust, but the Israeli government and forces have never had a policy or used terrorist tactics, such as bombings, suicide bombers, gun attacks on civilians, blowing up buses, indiscriminate gun and knife attacks, violent civil insurrection and riots.

there is a definite blind spot on parts the British left in relation to Palestine. Look at Corbyn, cant condemn Hamas and instead tries to mealy mouth it to avoid direct criticism and draw false equivalency. Very poor and very confused.

Another of the great contradictions of the modern day left.
They give unwavering support to causes that are rooted in beliefs and doctrine that are diametrically opposite and should be fundamentally abhorrent, to their core beliefs.
Hamas, Hezbollah and the other radical groups, are fundamentalist islamist movements.
They oppose democracy, diversity and their ultimate declared aims are to establish and enforce what could be described as de-facto Neo facist state.
Moderate Palestine voices are drowned out and have no influence or sway.
Why on earth would anyone on the left support this?
Madness !


.

 

[nw1]

Another of the great contradictions of the modern day left.
They give unwavering support to causes that are rooted in beliefs and doctrine that are diametrically opposite and should be fundamentally abhorrent, to their core beliefs.

Probably not the "modern day left" in general to be fair. For example, most left-wing contributors on here appear to be of the view that Hamas, and not Israel, are the aggressors in the current situation.
It's what I call the "alt-left" who sympathise with this sort of thing.

 

[birchesgreen]

The old left romanticised the Palestinian struggle for a long time, firstly with the PLO when it was led by Arafat. I think it played into the old west (US -> Israel) against east (CCCP -> PLO) thing. There was that cool thing about wearing the chequered head scarf et cetera.

That was a long time ago though and hardly applies anymore, i wonder if those who support HAMAS also support ISIS?

 

[21C101]

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[Starmill]

Israel are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties, Hamas deliberately targeted civilians, the elderly, and children.

The issue with this is that the Netanyahu government may claim it "doesn't target civilians" while provably killing thousands of unarmed ordinary citizens per year through indiscriminately bombing built up areas. Simply claiming without evidence that these are "military targets" doesn't mean this bombing is less of a war crime. Of course nobody says that it's not a war crime murdering people at a music festival and taking hostages, whom you then threaten to and actually do murder later. Or indeed a whole host of other things the IDF, the settler groups and Hamas and Hizbollah do.

Hamas, Hezbollah and the other radical groups, are fundamentalist islamist movements.
They oppose democracy, diversity and their ultimate declared aims are to establish and enforce what could be described as de-facto Neo facist state.
Moderate Palestine voices are drowned out and have no influence or sway.
Why on earth would anyone on the left support this?
Madness !

These groups don't have any meaningful support in this country though. In general it'd be an offence to support them. However the ordinary residents of Gaza and the occupied Palestinian territory do have significant support from voices based here. Who else is going to support them? Few voices who are actually nearby, which is why they attract international support in more democratic countries.

 

[Coolzac]

The issue with this is that the Netanyahu government may claim it "doesn't target civilians" while provably killing thousands of unarmed ordinary citizens per year through indiscriminately bombing built up areas. Simply claiming without evidence that these are "military targets" doesn't mean this bombing is less of a war crime. Of course nobody says that it's not a war crime murdering people at a music festival and taking hostages, whom you then threaten to and actually do murder later. Or indeed a whole host of other things the IDF, the settler groups and Hamas and Hizbollah do.


These groups don't have any meaningful support in this country though. In general it'd be an offence to support them. However the ordinary residents of Gaza and the occupied Palestinian territory do have significant support from voices based here. Who else is going to support them? Few voices who are actually nearby, which is why they attract international support in more democratic countries.

One of the great ironies about the whole situation is that the Arab countries use the Palestinians as useful martyrs, rather than actually helping them.

Just look at how Egypt actually joins in with blockade of Gaza.

 

[eldomtom2]

Israel are clearly trying to avoid civilian casualties

Israel have announced a total blockade of the Gaza Strip, explicitly stating that not even food and water will be allowed through. That is hardly "trying to avoid civilian casualties"!

 

[Herefordian]

Hamas has reportedly issued a deadline of 17:00 for residents of Ashkelon to leave.

Source: Sky News.

 

[Starmill]

One of the great ironies about the whole situation is that the Arab countries use the Palestinians as useful martyrs, rather than actually helping them.

Just look at how Egypt actually joins in with blockade of Gaza.

Indeed. The Lebanese, Egyptian and Iranian leaders certainly don't care about the ordinary Gazans any more than Netanyahu and his cronies do. And now some of the aid on which nearly all Gazans rely to get food and clean water is being cut off at its source also.

 

[DarloRich]

The issue with this is that the Netanyahu government may claim it "doesn't target civilians" while provably killing thousands of unarmed ordinary citizens per year through indiscriminately bombing built up areas. Simply claiming without evidence that these are "military targets" doesn't mean this bombing is less of a war crime. Of course nobody says that it's not a war crime murdering people at a music festival and taking hostages, whom you then threaten to and actually do murder later. Or indeed a whole host of other things the IDF, the settler groups and Hamas and Hizbollah do.

So what should the Israeli authorities do in response to a terrorist attack on thier citizens? They have to respond.

I am not sure they DO "indiscriminately" bomb built up areas. I am sure the air force aren't just ordered, fly over Gaza, bomb something/anything, fly home!

The issue is that the terrorist leadership puts itself in civilian areas and buildings because they expect that makes a response harder.

BTW - plenty of people DO say that attacks on Israelis of any sort is not a war crime!