321 black triangles.

[plastictaffy]

Evening all.
Noticed the other day while working two 321's nailed together that they have a black triangle stuck on the front of the cab, on the secondman's side, just under the window. My pilot didn't know why they were there - anyone else know?? They don't seem to be present on GA's Dusties - only LM ones. I've tried to find a picture of it, with somewhat limited success.

 

[transportphoto]

Indicates where first class is on the unit, first class ends have the Black Triangle. Also present on GA stock, including 170s AFAIAA.

GA 321 with Triangle: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5031/7163783984_7bd9f700b5_z.jpg
LM 321 with Triangle: http://www.focustransport.org.uk/imxesc1/esc2006.jpg
GA 170 with Triangle: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3712/9388705818_dab990a57e.jpg
GA 379 with Triangle: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5031/7064271553_7f0955a081_z.jpg


TP

 

[GB]

To indicate first class I believe....and they do feature on AGA 321s'.

 

[plastictaffy]

Ohhhhhhhh. I thought it would be more technical. You know, like steam engines had back at the end of steam to denote they weren't to work south of Crewe. I thought maybe the Dusties had it to denote they weren't to work north of Rugby, or something like that. Thanks.

 

[jopsuk]

They're on the 317/6 and /7, 379, 360 too. Not on the likes of 350s as they don't have 1st in an end carriage, similarly the 317/5 & /8. Think it is mainly a London AC commuter unit thing?

 

[Class 170101]

They are a bit pointless on GA Class 360s. They have first class at both ends.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They are a bit pointless on GA Class 360s. They have first class at both ends.

Not really, if people learn that the triangle means first class, then they will assume that no triangle is Standard class. Not everyone cares what type of train is, but a triangle is easy enough to recognise as a symbol for first class.

 

[306024]

In my experience most passengers looking for first class accomodation will have no idea about black triangles. I can't recall GA explaining it in any literature, and a search on their website doesn't shed any light either.

 

[Holmbridge]

Most passengers would look for the yellow band below the roof line to locate first. Pretty pointless having the triangle if its purpose is not notified to the public. Maybe this is more for internal staff use but why they need it escapes me at the moment.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Isn't this similar to the old southern units which had a large black triangle to denote the end containing the luggage and guards compartment.

 

[O L Leigh]

In my experience most passengers looking for first class accomodation will have no idea about black triangles. I can't recall GA explaining it in any literature, and a search on their website doesn't shed any light either.

There were posters on station platforms explaining the meaning shortly after the triangles were introduced.

O L Leigh

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Most passengers would look for the yellow band below the roof line to locate first. Pretty pointless having the triangle if its purpose is not notified to the public. Maybe this is more for internal staff use but why they need it escapes me at the moment.

Either that or where something like "1 or 1st or First" is painted on the doors, or near the doors. Most with that would probably assume that whole coach to be first class.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Isn't this similar to the old southern units which had a large black triangle to denote the end containing the luggage and guards compartment.

Yes on the two and three-car units. 4-car units didn't need them as they had guard's/luggage compartments at both ends.

But I agree, if the average joe public isn't told what a black triangle means, they are not going to know. They might just assume it's a driver or technical thing. Nothing like a big "1" or "First" in your face

 

[306024]

There were posters on station platforms explaining the meaning shortly after the triangles were introduced.

I can't recall that with any certainty although now you mention it, it does ring a very vague bell. Anyway it was a long while ago, it certainly isn't a GA thing so must have been in the early days of NX I guess.

Of course on an 8 or 12 car 321 it is only really of use on the leading unit, look which way the pantographs point is a better clue

 

[Eng274]

On the 380s the triangle signifies the 'B' end of the unit, and they don't have first class. I think it's just to tell the ends apart for train crew, and IIRC it tells bicycle users on the platform that particular coach has the bicycle storage.. Or did I imagine that?

 

[SeanG]

Of course up north here, we have yellow tiebars on the 185s to signify 1st

 

[matchmaker]

Of course up north here, we have yellow tiebars on the 185s to signify 1st

Don't you mean "cantrails"?

 

[59CosG95]

Of course up north here, we have yellow tiebars on the 185s to signify 1st

And down south too, on FGW's HST rakes.

 

[Anvil1984]

Don't you mean "cantrails"?

No there is no yellow line by the cant rail. The tie bar he refers to is on the coupler. Similar to what the Voyagers have too

 

[D7666]

Yes on the two and three-car units. 4-car units didn't need them as they had guard's/luggage compartments at both ends.

The Black Triangle on a SR unit did not uniquely mean "there is a van at this end" on a 3car or 2car. It was far more complex than that.

In fact it meant .... that there is not neccesarily van at the opposite end (..... of a short train) and that the guards position is not at the front of the train.

"van this end" is a false fact put about by people over simpyfying and not understanding its origin, and others repeating it, and all forgetting that "trainspotters" for want of a better term know how units are formed but staff do not, well at least not the staff involved here.


When they introduced these markings it was for country rural stations where only one man might be on duty for parcels mail box flowers (Hamshire DEMUs) etc, and it included services worked by say 2Hap or 4Cep.


The rural steam trains that were replaced by Kent Coast electrfication and Hampshire Diesel were all per strict SR operating invariably formed kettle + 3set - and a 3set always had a brake van at each end, they were usually BSK+CK+BSK or some variation on the brake-nonbrake-brake formation.

Porters and postmen always knew with those steam trains where the vans were and where the guard was.

But porter Joe Bloggs on the platform cannot tell if an approaching train is a 4EPB or 2EPB or 2Hap, nor if it is a 4Cep or 4Cig. Postman Fred Smith won't know what a Cig or a Cep or a Cor is or was.

No black triangle on the front tells the person on the platform that while there may (Cep, Cor, 4EPB, 6L) or may not (Cig Vep 2Hap 3DEMU) be a van at the front, it does tell him the guard won't be there and must be further back down the train - important where mails are concerned. So don't move your barrow or truck to the front of the train.

If you think about this, it applies to all trains of D/EMU stock without anyone having knowledge of what unit types the train is formed of.


Black triangle yes does impart the info there is a van at this end - but that is neither the origin nor the complete reason for it.

--
Nick

 

[swt_passenger]

... The tie bar he refers to is on the coupler. Similar to what the Voyagers have too

Still don't understand the term 'tie bar' in this context, the bit that's coloured yellow is the moving cover over the electrical connector, which is hardly ever seen open because it happens out of sight after the mechanical coupling is made?

 

[edwin_m]

Sometime in the late 70s or early 80s the 310s on the Euston suburban services were fitted with a third white spot on the "domino" former headcode indicator at the first class end. As this was lit from behind it would be easier to spot at night than the triangle. There were posters put up at the time to explain this to passengers.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure why they bothered. Unless it took a trip round Soho it would be virtually impossible to turn a 310 around. And surely this would also apply to the current LM and AGA fleets?

 

[D7666]

Sometime in the late 70s or early 80s the 310s on the Euston suburban services were fitted with a third white spot on the "domino" former headcode indicator at the first class end. As this was lit from behind it would be easier to spot at night than the triangle. There were posters put up at the time to explain this to passengers.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure why they bothered. Unless it took a trip round Soho it would be virtually impossible to turn a 310 around. And surely this would also apply to the current LM and AGA fleets?

310s used to get turned in regular diagrams i.e. Coventry - BNS stopper, reverse stopper to Walsall via Aston, back via Soho, then to Coventry or Euston.

You only need one assymetric diagram like that doing this once per day, then the unit stays wrong way round for days. The next day another unit does it, and the third day another one, and so on and on. Then after a while, randomness brings some back that have been reversed once and unreverses them, while others that have not yet been reversed do so. After a couple of months, you have complete random orientation.

Which was exactly why the 3 dots appeared.

Randomness is the key factor. Digressing :

I commute on 319s and invariably on 8car trains. Obviously 319s get turned on Wimbledon loop trains. Some of these are booked 319/4 (which include 319/2) as well as 319/3 (include 319/0). Add the complete inability of FCC (inherited from predecessors) to get the right type of unit on the right train.

There are numerous permutations of 319s combos if you include every sub-type + individual unit orientation (each one can be either way round) + orientation with respect to position in train.

Each unit can be either way round, so there are 8 orientations to mate with 8 other orientations.

Believe me, the 08:02 / 08:20 / 08:54 ex-Luton starters every morning is a complete guessing game.


--
Nick

 

[Class 317722]

the 379s have them too