373s on the ECML

[YourMum666]

At some point in the early 2000s GNER used to run class 373 “white roses” on the leeds services, what caused GNER to stop running them ?

 

[hexagon789]

At some point in the early 2000s GNER used to run class 373 “white roses” on the leeds services, what caused GNER to stop running them ?

The summer 2000 to winter 2005 timetable periods.

They were withdrawn on completion of the 'Mallard' project, they were only intended as a stop-gap measure to provide cover for the refurbishment of the 225 fleet.

The various route and speed restrictions limited their flexibility, so once GNER had a full 225 fleet available again, it made sense to divest themselves of a restrictive micro-fleet.

 

[YourMum666]

The summer 2000 to winter 2005 timetable periods.

They were withdrawn on completion of the 'Mallard' project, they were only intended as a stop-gap measure to provide cover for the refurbishment of the 225 fleet.

The various route and speed restrictions limited their flexibility, so once GNER had a full 225 fleet available again, it made sense to divest themselves of a restrictive micro-fleet.

Weren’t they also used as a test for the regional eurostar project? correct me if i’m wrong of course

 

[hexagon789]

Weren’t they also used as a test for the regional eurostar project? correct me if i’m wrong of course

I'm fairly certain the Regional Eurostar project had already been permanently cancelled by then. Though 'Q' paths remained in the WTT until about 2000 IIRC.

 

[Strathclyder]

GNER leased former North of London 373 sets starting in May 2000, operating the London-York White Rose services. The service was altered to serve Leeds in May 2002. Three of the sets (a total of 6 half-sets) recieved full GNER livery, while the rest remained in unbranded Eurostar livery. The lease expired in December 2005, thus they went back to Eurostar. The sets in question were later used by SNCF on domestic TGV services in France; all were withdrawn in October 2014 IIRC.

The expiry of their lease period, coupled with the Mallard project being completed were the main reasons GNER ceased using them. But they were always limited with what they could do on the ECML, what with limitations in the OHLE power supply & infrastructure (namely the amount of power they drew and the wire/pantograph interface, this resulted in a 110mph speed restriction; elaborated on by @hexagon789 below), platform & train lengths and track clearence issues concerning the relevent railway bridges in the Newcastle area preventing them from being used on Newcastle, Edinburgh & Glasgow services. Given these restrictions, it made sense for GNER to divest themselves of a restrictive micro-fleet once the 225 fleet was fully available again.

 

[YorksLad12]

Weren’t they also used as a test for the regional eurostar project? correct me if i’m wrong of course

The regional Eurostar project they were bought for (14 coaches instaed of the normal 18 on a 373) was long dead, but the stock was still there - that's how GNER got three of them, and painted two in their "stealth bomber" livery. Best it and they ever looked, probably because of the 373's profile.

I travelled in First Class on them a few times. Once, I was sat across the aisle and a bit from Philip Green and his good lady, Tina. Headphones were of no use when that barrow boy was speaking...

 

[WAO]

IIRC, they were power hungry and had strong minded pantographs, which the more delicate 1980's BR installation wasn't really happy with.

WAO

 

[Strathclyder]

The regional Eurostar project they were bought for (14 coaches instaed of the normal 18 on a 373) was long dead, but the stock was still there - that's how GNER got three of them, and painted two in their "stealth bomber" livery. Best it and they ever looked, probably because of the 373's profile.

Three full sets (6 half-sets) got the GNER livery; these were 3301/2, 3303/4 & 3305/6. The reminder remained in debranded Eurostar livery.

 

[hexagon789]

IIRC, they were power hungry and had strong minded pantographs, which the more delicate 1980's BR installation wasn't really happy with.

WAO

There were some power supply restrictions and they were restricted to 110mph on some stretches with higher PSRs because of the OLE interface.

 

[Dave91131]

6 of the 7 sets worked, the only 1 which didn't was 3307-3308.

3313-3314 did very little, perhaps only a couple of days, and was the only 1 I failed to travel on - though I did get overtaken by it whilst sat on a railtour on the down slow approaching Stoke Tunnel.

There was at least one hybrid "half blue half white" lash up for a time too, though I forget the half sets involved.

 

[Failed Unit]

Didn’t GNER also get another HST set (as well as the Mallard refurb) to help them stop needed them. I am sure a MML set was released by the 222s.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The dwell time at stations was unacceptable too - I travelled on one from KX to Peterborough (about a week before the Hatfield disaster) and it took an absolute age to detrain.

 

[Magdalia]

At Kings Cross the Eurostar trains could only use platforms 1 and 6.

There were also power supply problems if they needed to be diverted via Hertford.

 

[citycat]

When I was a GNER train guard, I was forever losing the location of the office where I had stored my bag. After a ticket check, I would have to open up about six compartments before I found the right one.

Plus, as the set was longer than some platforms, you would have to lock the rear most passenger doors out of use using some special lock pins, which was always a bit of a faff.

You always did a fair amount of walking the lenth of those 373’s and you certainly got your steps in on a Kx - Leeds return working.

The driver had to release the doors and you would have to wait for the steps to come out before the doors would open. The delay would always cause some passengers to panic at somewhere like Granthem or Newark and they would start running to find another passenger door thinking the original door wasn’t opening.

It also took a long time to close the doors and for the steps to retract, then for your local door to close and the step to retract, and then finally to signal the driver and get his signal back before he took power, hence the lenthy dwell times.

Taking the driver a cup of tea was always an adventure. You had to get through a heavy door and then cross over a little bridge where the leading coach connected to the power car where you would see the track passing below you and feel the wind blowing up from the coupling. You would then have to navigate through the lenth of the power car trying not to spill the driver’s tea because of the bouncy power car suspension to the quite claustrophobic driving cab, which was decorated in a dark blue and had a wine rack attached to the bulkhead wall.

I enjoyed working them as a guard and was sorry to see them go.

 

[Strathclyder]

There was at least one hybrid "half blue half white" lash up for a time too, though I forget the half sets involved.

Was it this occasion?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Anne was present at Leeds from around 2002, I think. I wonder if she used to say "This train is formed of 14 coaches." That would sound very bizarre.

 

[sprinterguy]

Didn’t GNER also get another HST set (as well as the Mallard refurb) to help them stop needed them. I am sure a MML set was released by the 222s.

I dimly recall that it was an additional two HST sets that allowed GNER to withdraw the Eurostars. I think that was when 43051/53/57/77 came across to the East Coast fleet.

 

[Failed Unit]

I dimly recall that it was an additional two HST sets that allowed GNER to withdraw the Eurostars. I think that was when 43051/53/57/77 came across to the East Coast fleet.

Yep, they tried to keep them on diagrams that started / ended in Leeds. They were kept the IC70 seats for a while. Passengers didn’t appreciate the lack of power points etc.

They were only 8 coaches but as others have said kept time better then the Eurostars

I must admit I didn’t realise the Eurostars were around pre-hatfield. (But thinking about it they must have because a peak London - Newark service was a Eurostar following the emergency timetable.) I remember them on the London - York trains before moving to the Leeds route. They must have got a 3rd set following the loss of a set (Hatfield and Heck combine if I recall lost a full mk4 set)

 

[43096]

I dimly recall that it was an additional two HST sets that allowed GNER to withdraw the Eurostars. I think that was when 43051/53/57/77 came across to the East Coast fleet.

Those five power cars (also 43056) and two sets transferred in 2007. Think they were for a service frequency uplift for Leeds from memory.

 

[superalbs]

Anne was present at Leeds from around 2002, I think. I wonder if she used to say "This train is formed of 14 coaches." That would sound very bizarre.

Or perhaps more likely, didn't announce the carriage count at all.

 

[DanNCL]

Taking the driver a cup of tea was always an adventure. You had to get through a heavy door and then cross over a little bridge where the leading coach connected to the power car where you would see the track passing below you and feel the wind blowing up from the coupling. You would then have to navigate through the lenth of the power car trying not to spill the driver’s tea because of the bouncy power car suspension to the quite claustrophobic driving cab, which was decorated in a dark blue and had a wine rack attached to the bulkhead wall.

For the driver that beats the 91s where they’d have to wait til a station before getting their cuppa!

 

[citycat]

For the driver that beats the 91s where they’d have to wait til a station before getting their cuppa!

Heading north from KX, it was York before they got a cuppa in their hand, and then only if I’d had time to make one.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I went on one when I was 10. Loved it, but do remember the walk from the back of the train to the ticket gates at Kings Cross was incredibly long.

 

[Efini92]

Was it this occasion?

Did they always run with both pans up?

 

[hexagon789]

Did they always run with both pans up?

Yes, the 373s were effectively two half-sets in multiple - there was no through 25kV bus line between halves.

 

[Efini92]

Yes, the 373s were effectively two half-sets in multiple - there was no through 25kV bus line between halves.

Cheers I didn’t know that. Looks like another error for the first mission impossible film

 

[hexagon789]

Cheers I didn’t know that. Looks like another error for the first mission impossible film

I believe this stems from BR concerns over 25kV bus lines within the confines of the British loading gauge - the APT-P had the power cars in the middle for this reason, so the 25kV connection between power cars wasn't within the passenger accommodation.

Ordinary TGVs have a 25kV line throughout the train and since the 373s were built, the 390 Pendolinos have since been constructed with a 25kV bus line, albeit theirs is entirely external - being on the roof.

 

[XAM2175]

I believe this stems from BR concerns over 25kV bus lines within the confines of the British loading gauge - the APT-P had the power cars in the middle for this reason, so the 25kV connection between power cars wasn't within the passenger accommodation.

There was never any problem with loading gauge; APT-P's trailer cars were only 3.5 m tall, over 20 cm shorter than a Mk 3 EMU, so there was plenty of room along the roof. The issue was the distance that would be needed for the inter-car connections in the bus line at the roof level given that APT-P's cars could tilt a lot, and that the tilt pivot centre was so close to the floor, and that they needed to allow for the worst-case situation of adjacent cars being tilted hard over in opposite directions due to tilt failures. The only alternative would have been to route the bus line down through the end walls of the cars and under the gangway, where the displacement between cars would be much smaller even at full tilt, and this was judged to be unacceptable for reasons I've forgotten for the moment.

And all of this only happened because a design requirement was that APT-P had to use the existing WCML overhead, which they knew couldn't support multiple-pantograph operation at high speed. The designers openly stated in contemporaneous papers that using a dual-pantograph design on higher-performance overhead would have been their first choice.

In the case of the 373s, I would suspect that the absence of the whole-train bus is intended to facilitate the sets being split in emergencies.

 

[rheingold103]

In the case of the 373s, I would suspect that the absence of the whole-train bus is intended to facilitate the sets being split in emergencies.

That was correct. It was a CT operational requirement. NoL 373 sets, like the Inter Capitals, were two coupled half sets operating in multiple, and each with pan raised in normal operation.