4 day closure of ECML south of Peterborough

[LBMPSB]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but it's just kinda wild to me that the connection to London, the capital, from an entire major mainline could be closed for 4 entire days. Was there no chance for any of these operators to divert into different termini or stations in London?

If only it was as straight forward as that. Drivers on LNER invariably only have route knowledge for their own route, so to travel on say East Midlands into St Pancras, or the Anglian lines into Liverpool Street, LNER would have to hire in Pilot drivers toguide their drivers from other TOCs to those station. Likely those TOCs only have enough drivers for their own trains. Then you have line capacity. Does St Pancras/Liverpool STreet and the lines leading to them have room to run additional trains without affecting other TOCs trains. Are the terminating stations equiped to take the extra flow of passengers as a result of diverted trains.

The easy option for TOCs is to not bother and tell passengers to not travel.

It is interesting that there is mention that weekends are for leisure travel. There are lots of people who travel into London at weekends for work, emergency services, rail workers and many people who simple work in the leisure industry in London. Up to last year I was a regular commuter for work, seven days a week. I was constantly late or having to use Annual leave at weekends because the TOCs weren't running trains, or if they were running some limited service it was taking me three hours to travel a mere 60 miles. I had to use hotels a lot of weekends because my employer would not accept me being late for work. In the end I took early retirement as the cheaper option. My employer was Network Rail.

 

[TUC]

Ah - yes, interestingly it is (and Cambridgeshire as well), so perhaps that's the plan.

London is the week before, though, as are most places further up the ECML (Notts, Lincs, Yorkshire etc.) so all of those will be impacted in terms of work travel to and from London.

I don't suppose they can win either way, really.

So has this been built around least inconvenience for South East commuters rather than those with longer journeys from the North of England? If so, whilst there's no ideal week, that's not a great message on where the priorities lay in terms of ECML passengers.

 

[43066]

Thinking about, all it needed were flags on the route planners for MML services that day.

"This train is expected to be extremely busy, due to the closure of another line. If you try to travel on this train, seat reservations are likely not to be honoured, many passengers will have to stand, and you might not be able to board at all."

Something along these lines would be very sensible. As would strict enforcement of the “LNER tickets not valid on this service”, messaging for the EMR Intercity operation, albeit this is difficult from a logistical perspective

The reality is that, when one of the three main routes to the north of London is closed, capacity is significantly reduced, so demand needs to be damped down where possible.

So has this been built around least inconvenience for South East commuters rather than those with longer journeys from the North of England? If so, whilst there's no ideal week, that's not a great message on where the priorities lay in terms of ECML passengers.

Surely it makes sense to prioritise those who pay the largest share of the bills, and travel in the greatest numbers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Theres never been a job like this one before…

Thought the section down to Moorgate was to prove concept before rollout. Also isn’t Thameslink core similar but much shorter distance.

So we’ve got about 12 miles of ETCS overlay from a 4 day closure at this rate it’s going to need a lot more closures to get all the way to Peterborough.

 

[yorksrob]

That is why it may be better to send LNER passengers to Cambridge (where they can get on a nice 10 car train to Liverpool Street). Of course that gives the challenge of space at Cambridge, Perhaps when MML has its new fleet things will be better as well.

Fair point - I did indeed do this at Xmas eve when the Cross was closed, and although it took a long time, the journey was comfortable and uncrowded.

 

[TUC]

Something along these lines would be very sensible. As would strict enforcement of the “LNER tickets not valid on this service”, messaging for the EMR Intercity operation, albeit this is difficult from a logistical perspective

The reality is that, when one of the three main routes to the north of London is closed, capacity is significantly reduced, so demand needs to be damped down where possible.



Surely it makes sense to prioritise those who pay the largest share of the bills, and travel in the greatest numbers.

That's the kind of argument which means that London and the SE gets most of the investment all of the time.

One could just as much argue that those who live closer to their workplace have more alternatives.

One could also argue those who are paying the highest fares, by virtue of long distance journeys, should be prioritised.

 

[43066]

That's the kind of argument which means that London and the SE gets most of the investment all of the time.

You seem to want to turn every discussion into a north versus south argument. Arguing for more investment in the north shouldn’t mean those in the south should be inconvenienced to make a point.

One could just as much argue that those who live closer to their workplace have more alternatives.

People who work in London generally have no practical alternative but to take the train. People in the north can often choose to drive, as you yourself have repeatedly reminded us, or take the train.

One could also argue those who are paying the highest fares, by virtue of long distance journeys, should be prioritised.

They probably aren’t paying more overall, though. People making occasional long distance journeys on advance tickets, versus season ticket holders paying thousands per year to travel from the Home Counties to London several times per week, for example…

 

[Failed Unit]

That's the kind of argument which means that London and the SE gets most of the investment all of the time.

One could just as much argue that those who live closer to their workplace have more alternatives.

One could also argue those who are paying the highest fares, by virtue of long distance journeys, should be prioritised.

That to be fair is very true, I drove to Harpenden (From Welwyn Garden City) . I suspect many of us that had to go to work that lived close to MML or the Greater Anglia route into Liverpool Street did the same thing. A pain in the rear but in the scheme of things not a hardship. For people from further north it was a lot more painful.

 

[43066]

was constantly late or having to use Annual leave at weekends because the TOCs weren't running trains, or if they were running some limited service it was taking me three hours to travel a mere 60 miles. I had to use hotels a lot of weekends because my employer would not accept me being late for work. In the end I took early retirement as the cheaper option. My employer was Network Rail.

That’s bizarre. As a TOC employee trains not running/being disrupted generally results in a taxi being provided or, if it happens en route to work, a good excuse for arriving late!

 

[AdamWW]

I guess commercailly EMR were in a no-win situation. The could have taken all APs off sale and made the trains compulsory reservation. This would have then filled them up with LNER passengers on the inter-available tickets where they get virtually no revenue. Keeping the APs on sale would at least get them full revenue with people using split tickets. I suspect EMR get more money off a customer doing Leeds - London and splitting on route then they do with a Super-off peak where the majority of the revenue will go to LNER.

It would seem a bit unfortunate if decisions are still being based on which TOC gains revenue from particular tickets when none of them are taking revenue risk any more.

 

[MikeWM]

Fair point - I did indeed do this at Xmas eve when the Cross was closed, and although it took a long time, the journey was comfortable and uncrowded.

The problem is with getting between Peterborough and Ely, which only has 5 or 9 already busy carriages most hours (alternating, as the Ipswich GA service is 2-hourly). That can't usually cope with even a fraction of trainloads of LNER customers being turfed off at Peterborough and deciding to go via Cambridge.

If LNER themselves ran to Ely, or Cambridge, during such disruption, that wouldn't be an issue, but there almost certainly isn't any space for them to terminate at either.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem is with getting between Peterborough and Ely, which only has 5 or 9 already busy carriages most hours (alternating, as the Ipswich GA service is 2-hourly). That can't usually cope with even a fraction of trainloads of LNER customers being turfed off at Peterborough and deciding to go via Cambridge.

This is true - and this was the busiest section of my journey (a 2 carriage EMR 158).

However, even on this, I was able to get a double seat.

If the route were to become more established, some sort of shuttle might be good.

 

[TUC]

I am left wondering if the dates selected were based on no more research than what SE-based senior Network Rail and LNER staff knew their own children's half-term dates were, not realising other places may be different

 

[43066]

I am left wondering if the dates selected were based on no more research than what SE-based senior Network Rail and LNER staff knew their own children's half-term dates were, not realising other places may be different

Or perhaps they realise the world doesn’t revolve around West Yorkshire, and they’ve planned the closure as best they could, based on the least inconvenience to the greatest number of travellers?

Out of interest, have you personally been inconvenienced by the closure?

 

[TUC]

Or perhaps they realise the world doesn’t revolve around West Yorkshire, and they’ve planned the closure as best they could, based on the least inconvenience to the greatest number of travellers?

I don't think the world revolves around West Yorkshire either. However, the ECML does revolve around York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and multiple other places.

 

[Failed Unit]

The February half term is all over the place,
London was the week before (12th Feb)
Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire were all (19th Feb)
Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire I also understand were this week.

So whichever week they had picked would cause issues for some areas.

 

[43066]

I don't think the world revolves around West Yorkshire either. However, the ECML does revolve around York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and multiple other places.

In terms of bald passenger numbers, especially once GTR are included, the ECML revolves around London and the South East, just as the UK railway does generally. Surely you aren’t suggesting that the planners should have ignored that reality during this closure?

You might (quite understandably) object to government policies that have entrenched that position, such as the absence of genuine “levelling up”, the curtailment of HS2 etc. but the planners have to respond to where the demand is.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Air fares between Newcastle and Heathrow reach £650 during ECML engineering work. An article by Simon Calder in the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...-work-east-coast-main-line-lner-b2498449.html

 

[43066]

Air fares between Newcastle and Heathrow reach £650 during ECML engineering work. An article by Simon Calder in the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...-work-east-coast-main-line-lner-b2498449.html

I realise there are some aviation enthusiasts on here who may know the answer to this question (@DanNCL, in particular, might be well placed, based on prior discussions): how many airline seats are available on flights between London airports and Newcastle on any given day?

It must be a tiny number, in comparison to railway seats.

 

[YorksLad12]

I think that some of that is EMR's own fault:

1. I travel to London occasionally on the MML, but I'd not seen any mention of these works. I had a meeting planned in London on the Tuesday, planned two months ago. If I had known in time, we could easily have chosen another day.

2. A week beforehand, EMR were still offering Advance tickets for travel LON-NOT on Tuesday 20 Feb. Why? That just made their problems worse.

3. The journey planner a week before was not flagging up any issues with the EMR services. Though it should have been obvious that there would be over-crowding at St Pancras and on-board. Any warning at all would have prompted me to investigate and I would have rescheduled.

4. And on the day itself, their website was showing "Good Service" on both the Nottingham and Sheffield routes. Which might have been true for services running, but not from the customer viewpoint. (Though they did have a notice that services were overcrowded.)

In the end I decided not to travel. Not a great customer experience.

Disagree. EMR get the fallout, but: why should they lose out on custom to LNER? And, why should they prominently advertise engineering works on a different line? Who would read those notices? (You and I, probably, but of the mere mortals, I mean)

Something along these lines would be very sensible. As would strict enforcement of the “LNER tickets not valid on this service”, messaging for the EMR Intercity operation, albeit this is difficult from a logistical perspective

LNER tickets shouldn't have been valid between Sheffield/Nottingham and Bedford; EMR reservations should have been compulsory. The whole overcrowding (which affected me too, between Leeds and Sheffield) was because people wrongly assumed you can just hop on the next train out of Dodge. You can't. The railway doesn't work like that.

 

[Bald Rick]

LeedsLEA has Easter at the same time each year

Really? regardless of where Easter is between 22 March and 25 April?

Not this nonsense again. Business meetings can be rescheduled.
But concerts, sporting events, gala days at preserved railways etc can't be: at least not by the audience/ spectators.
Many people have to take the annual leave the company roster gives them.
Family events like weddings are often planned months, if not years, in advance. (Significant birthdays are fixed decades in advance!).
And much so-called "leisure" travel is urgent personal business - emergency childcare, visiting a dying relative, attending a funeral, hospital appointment, job interview, or court (as litigant, witness, whatever). None of that can be rescheduled - and it is insulting to call such journeys "leisure"

It is interesting that there is mention that weekends are for leisure travel. There are lots of people who travel into London at weekends for work, emergency services, rail workers and many people who simple work in the leisure industry in London.

I’m not disputing any of that, however a lot of lesiure trips can be and are chosen around availability of transport. Almost every week I am advising friends on weekends to avoid for their shopping / theatre / freinds meet up trips to London / Edinburgh / wherever based on the engineering work plan. They still travel, but pick the days when they can get a train.

Thought the section down to Moorgate was to prove concept before rollout. Also isn’t Thameslink core similar but much shorter distance.

So we’ve got about 12 miles of ETCS overlay from a 4 day closure at this rate it’s going to need a lot more closures to get all the way to Peterborough.

This was a different kettle of fish altogether. 3 x interlockings, 4 tracks, multiple junctions and 4 fringes, interfaces to the RBC, all done in one go (to avoid multiple blocks ans stage works, with more total hours).

I am left wondering if the dates selected were based on no more research than what SE-based senior Network Rail and LNER staff knew their own children's half-term dates were, not realising other places may be different

No they are based on what the TOCs wanted.

I realise there are some aviation enthusiasts on here who may know the answer to this question (@DanNCL, in particular, might be well placed, based on prior discussions): how many airline seats are available on flights between London airports and Newcastle on any given day?

It must be a tiny number, in comparison to railway seats.

It is. About 8-900 each way per day.

 

[Bayum]

Really? regardless of where Easter is between 22 March and 25 April?

Yep. Argument is that they have fixed term lengths, whereas we can have really long spring half terms or two very short - we’ve only got five weeks either side.

 

[sh24]

I realise there are some aviation enthusiasts on here who may know the answer to this question (@DanNCL, in particular, might be well placed, based on prior discussions): how many airline seats are available on flights between London airports and Newcastle on any given day?

It must be a tiny number, in comparison to railway seats.

Depending on exactly how big Club Europe is, somewhere between 800 and 950 seats. Or around 1.5 x 9 car Azuma. Not much.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep. Argument is that they have fixed term lengths, whereas we can have really long spring half terms or two very short - we’ve only got five weeks either side.

Wow.

 

[Tester]

Wow.

I was surprised too - but there it is!

Does anyone know of any other examples?

 

[DanNCL]

Air fares between Newcastle and Heathrow reach £650 during ECML engineering work. An article by Simon Calder in the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...-work-east-coast-main-line-lner-b2498449.html

That’s incredibly unusual and almost certainly a Club Europe fare rather than economy. Most I’ve ever seen it in economy is £170 but even that’s rare.
When the ECML is open you can often get an economy fare for £40-£50 even last minute on all bar the first and last flights.

I realise there are some aviation enthusiasts on here who may know the answer to this question (@DanNCL, in particular, might be well placed, based on prior discussions): how many airline seats are available on flights between London airports and Newcastle on any given day?

It must be a tiny number, in comparison to railway seats.

It varies, no two days are the same, but it’s usually in the region of 800-1000 seats per day. The exact amount depends on allocated aircraft, proportion of the cabin on each flight given to Club Europe (which is dynamically sized), and whether the BA1328/1329 rotation is operating that day or not.
Historically those flights were mostly used by transit passengers but an ever increasing number now use it just to get to London. The last time I flew the vast majority of the passengers went out of arrivals at Heathrow, I was actually in the minority as a transit passenger.
British Airways are the only airline currently flying between London and Newcastle and only do so from Heathrow.
So it is a lot less than the train offers, but not a completely insignificant number of seats and BA have clearly seen the potential to attract some passengers from LNER.

May be worth noting that the larger A321neo aircraft are working an ever increasing number of Newcastle rotations, usually at the expense of destinations such as Frankfurt which are increasingly seeing more of the smaller A319s.

Edinburgh-London is an entirely different picture with three airlines flying to all four London airports.

 

[bramling]

The NR branded posters about the project were around before January, but didn't mention the dates implicitly - you needed to go to the website to learn more what the whole project is about and see the road map for times and dates.

The next poster did have the dates but even though it was four consecutive days (so had to include weekdays) I don't think it was very clear to people in a rush.

Nearer the time, business cards were handed out in the peak with warnings and a barcode for more info.

Have to say I didn’t know about this until … on Monday afternoon I looked at the departure board for my station and saw no trains.

No big deal as I was 50/50 thinking of going by car anyway, and with the service having been so non-dependable since 2018 I tend to only use it as a novelty anyway. But nonetheless if I didn’t know about it then it couldn’t have been particularly well publicised, especially as a full closure on a working day *is* still a big deal for many people.

Still, the bane of my life signal K687 has gone now. Albeit it’s still there but renumbered. Bane of life because of the amount of time spent sitting at it, mainly in 365 days. To be fair, one positive thing about the current timetable setup is there is less bunching on this section so more trains tend to get a clear run compared to pre 2018.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that discussion in this thread should be confined to the four day closure itself. We have a separate thread to discuss solutions to overcrowding on the other routes affected:

ECML Closure - How can we prevent other routes becoming overwhelmed.

We probably have had a number of threads, but is there anything we can do to stop some of the minor routes becoming overwhelmed when the ECML is closed. Looking at some big flows - this was the best route offer. Edinburgh - London, via West Coast various ways Newcastle - London, Train to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I'm still not at all clear what steps, if any, were actually implemented on EMR to provide extra capacity from STP to SHF on these two (tSdays? Or was the plan just rely on there being spare space on the existing 2tph? (Surely not!) Were the 5cars to be doubled up (Martin Lewis's account implies not)? Capacity at SHF is very limited, so 2tph for EMR is about the limit, but could they have been made longer? Were all Advance Fares on LNER, EMR, HT and GC suspended to deter travel? Were some of the remaining trains declared 'Reservation Compulsory'? Clearly, even with lower demand for half term (at least in some parts) and on the Monday, the standard EMR train plan cannot cope with LNER and Open Access demand of c.4.5tph on top....

I seem to recall the quite sensible point being made, prior to Covid, that on those grim days when the East Coast is unexpectedly out of action, there are simply not enough spare coaches in the entire country to move the volumes involved, ie. perhaps 2000 pax per hour in each direction....

 

[43055]

I'm still not at all clear what steps, if any, were actually implemented on EMR to provide extra capacity from STP to SHF on these two (tSdays? Or was the plan just rely on there being spare space on the existing 2tph? (Surely not!) Were the 5cars to be doubled up (Martin Lewis's account implies not)? Capacity at SHF is very limited, so 2tph for EMR is about the limit, but could they have been made longer? Were all Advance Fares on LNER, EMR, HT and GC suspended to deter travel? Were some of the remaining trains declared 'Reservation Compulsory'? Clearly, even with lower demand for half term (at least in some parts) and on the Monday, the standard EMR train plan cannot cope with LNER and Open Access demand of c.4.5tph on top....

I seem to recall the quite sensible point being made, prior to Covid, that on those grim days when the East Coast is unexpectedly out of action, there are simply not enough spare coaches in the entire country to move the volumes involved, ie. perhaps 2000 pax per hour in each direction....

By the looks of things the formations were the same as normal on Monday/Tuesday with just some peak services doubled up.