456 - swt

[JB25]

Not sure if anyone else has heard this but when Southerns 456 stock go to SWT's later this year apparently they are sticking them in between two 455 units, is this true?

I only ask because I think it's a slightly odd way of doing it effectively boxing the 456 in (which I think will look silly for what it's worth). And to me it sounds like a way of them not having to train their drivers in the traction if they won't be having to drive them.

So SWT will effectively have them... 455-456-455

I thought they were going to simply stick it on the end... 455-455-456

 

[Monty]

Not sure if anyone else has heard this but when Southerns 456 stock go to SWT's later this year apparently they are sticking them in between two 455 units, is this true?

I only ask because I think it's a slightly odd way of doing it effectively boxing the 456 in (which I think will look silly for what it's worth). And to me it sounds like a way of them not having to train their drivers in the traction if they won't be having to drive them.

So SWT will effectively have them... 455-456-455

I thought they were going to simply stick it on the end... 455-455-456

I've not heard anything to suggest they will form units up like that, to my knowledge its only a few peak time services that will be formed of a 10-Car 455/456 formation. I'll imagine they'll be coupled in the most convenient fashion by the shunters at the depots.

 

[JB25]

I've not heard anything to suggest they will form units up like that, to my knowledge its only a few peak time services that will be formed of a 10-Car 455/456 formation. I'll imagine they'll be coupled in the most convenient fashion by the shunters at the depots.

Cheers for the reply Monty. They are really nice to drive, I'm looking forward to seeing what they look like in SWT livery too.

 

[Surreyman]

I've not heard anything to suggest they will form units up like that, to my knowledge its only a few peak time services that will be formed of a 10-Car 455/456 formation. I'll imagine they'll be coupled in the most convenient fashion by the shunters at the depots.

I am sure I read somewhere (might have been a post on this forum?) that in the short term, a few of the 456s would be coupled together to form 4/8 car sets?
The published info for the December 2013 timetable suggests only a few 10 car operations initially, presumably as not all 456s will have been transferred by then.
When the 455s are re-motored with AC equipment does this impact on their ability to operate with 455s?

 

[JB25]

I am sure I read somewhere (might have been a post on this forum?) that in the short term, a few of the 456s would be coupled together to form 4/8 car sets?
The published info for the December 2013 timetable suggests only a few 10 car operations initially, presumably as not all 456s will have been transferred by then.
When the 455s are re-motored with AC equipment does this impact on their ability to operate with 455s?

Surely SWT won't use them until they have been repainted will they?

 

[Monty]

Surely SWT won't use them until they have been repainted will they?

The current briefing we have had is that for a short period of time they (the 456s) will run in debranded Southern livery.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....And to me it sounds like a way of them not having to train their drivers in the traction if they won't be having to drive them. ....

Traction training actually encompasses more than just driving the things. Every driver should know about all the vehicles in the train, not just the one they are driving from.

 

[causton]

The current briefing we have had is that for a short period of time they (the 456s) will run in debranded Southern livery.

Ooh. When is the first of these likely to run?

 

[Monty]

Ooh. When is the first of these likely to run?

March 2014 is the current date we are being told.

 

[rebmcr]

Nobody has mentioned their gangwayless cab-ends being a particularly good reason for being non-sandwiched!

 

[Vicpaul]

The latter would seem more obvious unless.

Don't worry though you will get to drive them again one day

 

[Mojo]

Nobody has mentioned their gangwayless cab-ends being a particularly good reason for being non-sandwiched!

Although customers cannot walk through 455s anyway; the access through the ends of the units being locked up for staff only.

 

[Top Cat]

At present, the plan is for 456's to initially be used on Guildford to Ascot services in 4 car formations, although there is a possibility of 1 x 2 car diagram.
Certainly no truth in a 455-456-455 formation being utilised.

 

[TEW]

The published info for the December 2013 timetable suggests only a few 10 car operations initially, presumably as not all 456s will have been transferred by then.

The problem is platform capacity at London Waterloo rather than a lack of units. The suburban platforms, 1-4, at Waterloo can only handle 8 carriage trains. The only trains being lengthened to 10 carriages initially are services which use other platforms, a few Guildford-London via Cobham services are the ones I believe. Some 456s will also be used to provide units to run some extra services, a couple of 8 carriage peak extras into Waterloo.

 

[Train wasp]

Does anyone know if 456 units will replace 158 units on the Lymington branch.

Cheers

 

[Eagle]

Definitely not. They will be based at Wimbledon.

 

[Pumbaa]

Doesn't mean they won't

Operationally it's no different from 150/153 from Tyseley doing the Marston Vale, or whatever Northern uses on their Humber island.

 

[Eagle]

No, but it makes it very, very unlikely. Will there even be any drivers who sign both the traction and the route?

(Of course not ruling out that at some point in the future they move to Bournemouth, but that's not on the cards at the moment.)

 

[Pumbaa]

Again, doesn't mean there won't or can't be. I don't know what's happening fully with them, as much has been decided is already public. It hasn't been ruled out, that's for sure.

 

[TEW]

No crew signed both 158s and the Lymington branch before they decided to run the branch with 158s. Not that I think they'll use a 456 on the branch mind.

 

[Monty]

While possible, I would say 456s on the Lymington branch is unlikely for the time being. The units are being used to allow 450s and 458s to come off the Ascot branch and to allow 455s to be freed up for additional services. So in theory there will not be enough to send down to the New Forest.

 

[bigdelboy]

It certainly seems some platforms between Guildford and Effingham junction at least are being lengthened ....

I think Effingham junction is a lonesome place ..here is nothing there.

If SDO works on this 4+2+4 formation and a 4+2+4 pulls up at a platform 8 coaches long then then the last 2 coaches of the last unit cannot open, but at least 2 coaches of the last unit would open.

If a 4+4+2 pulls up at a platform 8 coaches long then the last 2 will not open and no-one can get out of the last unit. This may make passengers excited and they may try to squeeze out the window or pull the cord or something. evil:

A 2+4+4 doesn't have this problem until it goes into reverse.

 

[swt_passenger]

If SDO works on this 4+2+4 formation and a 4+2+4 pulls up at a platform 8 coaches long then then the last 2 coaches of the last unit cannot open, but at least 2 coaches of the last unit would open.

But SDO is definitely not being used on the SWT 10 car 455/456 operated routes. That's explained by NR in the CP4 plans, the inability to add SDO to the units is given as the justification for all the platform extensions the routes are getting - and they are all being done, contracts were issued a while back, for completion by Dec 2014 IIRC...

 

[90sWereBetter]

Although customers cannot walk through 455s anyway; the access through the ends of the units being locked up for staff only.

Potentially silly question, but I thought it was only the Southern 455s that had lost their corridor connection? Unless SWT have locked the corridor connections on their 455s, but haven't sealed it up like Southern did on theirs. :?

I'm probably being pretty stupid here...

 

[Monty]

Potentially silly question, but I thought it was only the Southern 455s that had lost their corridor connection? Unless SWT have locked the corridor connections on their 455s, but haven't sealed it up like Southern did on theirs. :?

I'm probably being pretty stupid here...

SWT's 455s still have their gangways, but they are not usable by members of the public.

 

[IrishDave]

The original press release mentions lengthening a couple of Exeter/Yeovil/Salisbury trains. For that you'd need to replace at least one 158/159 diagram with a 456. I think the only place you can do that (at least with any ease) is the Lymington branch, and I honestly thought that was one of the reasons SWT was getting the 456s at all...

 

[Monty]

I highly doubt you'll see 456s doing the Lymington Branch any time soon, they are desperately needed to free up other units elsewhere. To my knowledge SWT currently have a surplus of 158/159 DMUs as they always seem to be subleasing a few to another operator (FGW and EMT are recent examples). I imagine when the time comes for WoE services to be strengthened the units on sublease will be returned.

 

[Eagle]

It doesn't have to be directly replacing a 158 with a 456 to do that, it could be in stages. Could be that the 456s deployed in SW London and Surrey will free up one or two 450s, which could be transferred to Bournemouth depot to work the Lymington Branch. Alternatively the 450 freed up could replace the 158 that currently work services such as Southampton to Portsmouth and Basingstoke.

That's two ways I can think that introducing 456s could free up 158s, without having to introduce the 456s to Lymington (which would either require a microfleet at Bournemouth or an 80-mile long trip pack to the depot).

 

[TEW]

If you look at the list of strengthened services, one of those being strengthened is a Portsmouth-Basingstoke-London train, going from 6 to 8 carriages. It's currently a 6 car 159, presumably going to an 8 car 450. 450s are being freed up because 456s will be used on Guildford-Ascot services instead of 450s.

 

[fgwrich]

SWT's 455s still have their gangways, but they are not usable by members of the public.

Bit of an odd question but do you know why this policy seems to be in place on SWTs 455s only?