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91111 to become part of national collection

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West Ruislip

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The designation of 91111, For the Fallen, has been ratified by the Science Museum's Board of Trustees.

The designation includes not only the locomotive, but its commemorative livery as well.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...-fallen-91-designated-for-national-collection

James Johnson said:
The Board of Trustees of the Science Museum has ratified the designation of Virgin Trains East Coast 91111, For the Fallen. The designation includes the locomotive itself, its nameplates and its wraparound commemorative vinyl.

The Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board, chaired by Lord Faulkner, made the recommendation after he attended the dedication ceremony at London Kings Cross. It was approved by the Science Museum Trustees on March 4.......


Photo of 91111 at King's Cross
 
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sprinterguy

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Huh, I wonder if this means that 91031/91131 has had it's place in the Railway Heritage collection de-designated, or whether the national collection will one day contain two class 91s?

I would be inclined to suspect the former, but you never know.
 

Tim R-T-C

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Will the vinyl livery be retained in perpetuity then or are they going to re-wrap it when it becomes preserved?

While I like the idea and the livery is a superb tribute, it is hardly a representative colour scheme for the class.
 

D365

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Will the vinyl livery be retained in perpetuity then or are they going to re-wrap it when it becomes preserved?

While I like the idea and the livery is a superb tribute, it is hardly a representative colour scheme for the class.

The announcement states that this particular vinyl will be preserved.

Which is why I too hope 91(1)31 is still on the books. The Class 91 is as important as any loco of East Coast heritage.
 
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What state will the current vinyls be in by the time the loco is preserved? I'm guessing that vinyls are less durable than a proper paint job?
 

Monty

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What state will the current vinyls be in by the time the loco is preserved? I'm guessing that vinyls are less durable than a proper paint job?

I was thinking the same thing, the loco could potentially have another decade at least of service left before withdrawal (Last I heard Virgin wants to retain the 225 fleet in the medium term). What kind of state is it going to be in when the TOCs/ROSCOs are finally finished with it?
 

Aictos

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All very well having this livery kept BUT it's just a livery end of day, if anything it should have the InterCity Swallow livery as it used to when first introduced when it goes into preservation.

Why not keep the Battle of Britain livery or the Flying Scotsman liveries, good that a 91 is being earmarked but livery? Nah!
 

yorksrob

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Indeed. From a personal point of view, I would rather the loco were preserved in a fleet livery than a one-off (and that preferably either Swallow or GNER). Then hopefully, a fitting livery to commemorate the Armistice will be provided for whatever stock is currently in service for the next important anniversary.
 

edwin_m

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Indeed. The NRM seems far too keen on one-offs rather than "the train I went to school/work/holiday on". I don't think there's even a coach in blue and grey there - the Mk2 is in the accurate but very much minority FM Rail "Blue Pullman" livery.
 

D365

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Seeing as how long Class 91 has been in front-line service, as has been said, I don't think it deserves only a single loco in preservation! Hope to hear an update on 91(1)31 soon.
 

talltim

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As long as the design files have been kept (and are in a format still readable then) they could always print a new set of vinyls
 

sprinterguy

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Very true, just dawned on me they've been in ECML service now for a longer time than the Deltics were, likewise HSTs, longer than the A4s managed.
They've not quite managed longer than the A4s yet, which enjoyed a 28 year stint on top link work on the ECML from 1935 to 1963 (25 years in what I would consider "squadron" service from 1938), but I grant you that the 91s are running them very close at present and certainly will have served longer by the time they are replaced by the IEP (First loco rolled out of Crewe works in March 1988, squadron service along the length of the ECML from April 1991, withdrawal expected from around December 2019 - So 31/32 years from first introduction and 28/29 years in squadron service).

It is quite astonishing to realise that they have served longer in front line service on the ECML than both the Deltics and HSTs (Yes the HSTs are still there but they're no longer the core of the East Coast fleet), both of which have left such an indelible impression amongst the enthusiast community.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seeing as how long Class 91 has been in front-line service, as has been said, I don't think it deserves only a single loco in preservation! Hope to hear an update on 91(1)31 soon.
It'll be interesting to see if we end up with another over-representation of the latest generation of East Coast "race horse" as we have with the previous (6 out of 35 A4s preserved, 6 out of 22 Deltics). Not that I'm complaining, mind, and there always is a stronger will to preserve the glamorous express engines.
 

Oswyntail

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All very well having this livery kept BUT it's just a livery end of day, ....
As the NRM is supposed to cover all aspects of the railway, a livery - especially a special - is just as "important" as a locomotive. You could more easily dismiss the standard liveries as "just a livery", because you can find them on a number of classes.
 

yorksrob

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As the NRM is supposed to cover all aspects of the railway, a livery - especially a special - is just as "important" as a locomotive. You could more easily dismiss the standard liveries as "just a livery", because you can find them on a number of classes.

I don't recall seeing Swallow livery on anything on the network for a while now.
 

DarloRich

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As long as the design files have been kept (and are in a format still readable then) they could always print a new set of vinyls

That was my view in reading the article. Perhaps also preserving the vinyl wrap as an example of 21st century "advertising" liveries rather than keeping the loco in the exact condition it is in now

ps didnt take long before the complaints about paint schemes started...............
 
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sprinterguy

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I don't recall seeing Swallow livery on anything on the network for a while now.
Riviera still maintain and operate a rake of Intercity swallow liveried mark 2s, and Ian Riley's 37518 carries swallow livery. 86213 "Lancashire Witch" could often be seen knocking around at Wembley in Intercity livery a little while back, but I don't know that it's still mainline registered. I'll grant you that the livery certainly isn't widespread any more, but I think that the point was that the livery was once ubiquitous and standard across a large fleet (albeit with the use of the wrong tense).
 
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whhistle

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Looking at the photo on the rail mag website, a quick look makes it seem like the front of the loco is more rounded, like the Class 68's a little.

Reminds me of the Porterbrook Class 319 option to give it a new front cab to make the train appear "new".
 

DownSouth

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Looking at the photo on the rail mag website, a quick look makes it seem like the front of the loco is more rounded, like the Class 68's a little.

Reminds me of the Porterbrook Class 319 option to give it a new front cab to make the train appear "new".
This effect was pioneered in NASCAR racing in the USA, where subtle accents on the livery were used to give the impression that the cars were physically different when in actual fact the same body shell was used by all teams, regardless of which manufacturer's mechanical kit was underneath.

Giving trains new liveries on a regular basis is a very positive move for the railways if they are to keep competing against other modes of transport. The perception of the trains being kept in top condition and updated on a regular basis is far more important than whether they are actually being refurbished and updated under the skin, because perceptions can make up a significant part of the decision to travel by train or some other mode.

The same applies to headline times - saving two minutes by increased performance on a journey of a few hours might not sound like much (especially since there's probably a few times that amount in various forms of padding and margin for error) but if the current travel time is 3:01 then the two minutes saved to make it 2:59 will be the most important two minutes to save.
 

West Ruislip

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This morning the NRM has said: "We can confirm that the Class 91 91111 For the Fallen has been designated by The Board of Trustees of the Science Museum, however designation does not infer that disposal will automatically be to the National Railway Museum or that we are the only recipient that will be considered or consulted. For example in the past year, 25 items have been designated and 12 disposed of. Only four of these have come to the National Railway Museum"
 

Rhydgaled

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Great News
I'm not so sure, as it makes it less likely that 91110 will enter the National Collection. I think that one belongs in the NRM more than 91111 because '10 is the speed record holder.

As the NRM is supposed to cover all aspects of the railway, a livery - especially a special - is just as "important" as a locomotive. You could more easily dismiss the standard liveries as "just a livery", because you can find them on a number of classes.
91111's livery is certainly special, but it is special for a non-railway reason. It belongs in a military museum more than the NRM I think, whereas 91110 is special for a railway reason and belongs in the NRM. And if you want to preserve an example of one-off vinyl liveries, 91110's Battle Of Britain livery is the better looking of the two in my view.

designation does not infer that disposal will automatically be to the National Railway Museum or that we are the only recipient that will be considered or consulted. For example in the past year, 25 items have been designated and 12 disposed of. Only four of these have come to the National Railway Museum"
Does '12 disposed of' and 4 going to NRM mean 8 designated items have been scrapped?
 

edwin_m

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I'm not so sure, as it makes it less likely that 91110 will enter the National Collection. I think that one belongs in the NRM more than 91111 because '10 is the speed record holder.

91111's livery is certainly special, but it is special for a non-railway reason. It belongs in a military museum more than the NRM I think, whereas 91110 is special for a railway reason and belongs in the NRM. And if you want to preserve an example of one-off vinyl liveries, 91110's Battle Of Britain livery is the better looking of the two in my view.

Does '12 disposed of' and 4 going to NRM mean 8 designated items have been scrapped?

Presumably the other 8 have gone to good homes other than the NRM. Quite a few items on heritage railways are officially "on loan", not least because any "runners" can't do so in York unless they meet the much higher hurdles of main line certification. So preservation in a military museum ought to be entirely acceptable to NRM, and would solve the problem of what to do if they end up owning two of the class.
 

sprinterguy

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I'm not so sure, as it makes it less likely that 91110 will enter the National Collection. I think that one belongs in the NRM more than 91111 because '10 is the speed record holder.
There wasn't much chance of 91110 being designated for the National Collection in the first place, as the Railway Heritage Designatory Advisory Board had already decided that 91031/131 was the more historically deserving for holding the speed record for a UK domestic train carrying passengers.
Does '12 disposed of' and 4 going to NRM mean 8 designated items have been scrapped?
As Edwin_m says, no: It generally means that they have been purchased or accepted by groups other than the NRM.
 

Rhydgaled

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Presumably the other 8 have gone to good homes other than the NRM. Quite a few items on heritage railways are officially "on loan", not least because any "runners" can't do so in York unless they meet the much higher hurdles of main line certification. So preservation in a military museum ought to be entirely acceptable to NRM, and would solve the problem of what to do if they end up owning two of the class.
Sounds good, thanks for the answer.

There wasn't much chance of 91110 being designated for the National Collection in the first place, as the Railway Heritage Designatory Advisory Board had already decided that 91031/131 was the more historically deserving for holding the speed record for a UK domestic train carrying passengers.
Shame the allocades are held by different locos. Mallard is presumably presevered on the basis of absolute maximum rather than carrying passengers so 91110 would be right at home sat next to Mallard in the great hall at York. Railway-wise, if preserving two 91s in the national collection I'd say 91110 (in Battle Of Britain livery) and 91031 (in Swallow) rather than 91031 and 91111.

As for the record 'carrying passengers' how do you define passengers? Presumably there were railway staff on board the mk4 rake used when 91110 got the record, just as there were in the speed-recording coach behind Mallard. So what difference does it make given that nobody even seems to know whether fare-paying passengers have even done 140mph on the ECML?
 

sprinterguy

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As for the record 'carrying passengers' how do you define passengers? Presumably there were railway staff on board the mk4 rake used when 91110 got the record, just as there were in the speed-recording coach behind Mallard. So what difference does it make given that nobody even seems to know whether fare-paying passengers have even done 140mph on the ECML?
It's a point that's piqued my interest before, too: Presumably the differentiation is between members of railway staff employed in some practical capacity as part of the run and impartial observers, although I am not sure why there is such a high level of distinction between the two, given that any passengers carried by these sorts of record breaking runs, including the 154mph run with 91031, are generally invited members of the press rather than everyday passengers.

It does strike me as unusual that the RHDAB have seen fit to designate an entire locomotive based solely on a vinyl wrap that it carries: With space for preserved exhibits being finite - around the country, not just within the NRM - I would have thought that it would have been sufficient to save a virtual copy of the final designs for the vinyl wrap, in a suitable file format that is likely to allow long term access, and any intellectual rights to the design that there might be. You make a good argument that, if we are to have two designated class 91s, better for it to be 91110 and 91131.

It is a shame, however, that we did not have a Railway Heritage Board around to save the WW1 memorial locomotives of the London North Western and Great Central Railways, the locos named "Patriot" and "Valour" respectively: Both examples of loco classes no longer extant.
 
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edwin_m

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As for the record 'carrying passengers' how do you define passengers? Presumably there were railway staff on board the mk4 rake used when 91110 got the record, just as there were in the speed-recording coach behind Mallard. So what difference does it make given that nobody even seems to know whether fare-paying passengers have even done 140mph on the ECML?

There were also four Westinghouse employees behind Mallard, returning from what was nominally a brake test. According to the Don Hale book, each of them was "given a special ticket for insurance and safety reasons" - so perhaps that makes them passengers?

Not sure how having a ticket makes somebody safer in this situation.
 

yorksrob

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It is quite astonishing to realise that they have served longer in front line service on the ECML than both the Deltics and HSTs (Yes the HSTs are still there but they're no longer the core of the East Coast fleet), both of which have left such an indelible impression amongst the enthusiast community.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It'll be interesting to see if we end up with another over-representation of the latest generation of East Coast "race horse" as we have with the previous (6 out of 35 A4s preserved, 6 out of 22 Deltics). Not that I'm complaining, mind, and there always is a stronger will to preserve the glamorous express engines.

Can't agree with that at all Sprinterguy. The 125's are more than just "still there". They're performing a myriad of main line services every day, including expresses to Scotland. That'll be getting on for forty years of top link work by the time they go.

As for whether the 91's are likely to be over represented in preservation, I suspect not, owing to the need for wires.

Definitely good news that Virgin are going to keep some Mk4 sets. Good trains and definitely still fit for the ECML.
 

Rhydgaled

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Can't agree with that at all Sprinterguy. The 125's are more than just "still there". They're performing a myriad of main line services every day, including expresses to Scotland. That'll be getting on for forty years of top link work by the time they go.
...
Definitely good news that Virgin are going to keep some Mk4 sets. Good trains and definitely still fit for the ECML.
I agree, IC125s have had a good 40yrs and in my opinion the IC225s should too. Only the DfT's silo thinking seems to have landed the ECML with new trains which looks like pushing most IC225 sets to an early grave (shame Virgin EastCoast are only keeping a few).
 
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