A bird strike damaged the train

[jupiter]

Where do you propose putting a big tank of water above the carriages to enable a flush mechanism to operate using gravity ?

We’ve got a big tank of water above the toilet on my stuff.

 

[43066]

i don’t know the specifics of this incident but failed passenger trains blocking the GE are usually rescued in less than 3 hours in my experience.

But that’s the key thing. We’ve also had a knowledgeable and insightful response upthread as to why it doesn’t sound excessive in this case.

The point I was getting at is that the assumption on here *always* seems to be that, however long something takes, it’s much too long and should be doable more quickly, but for railway incompetence, blah bah blah.

 

[Watershed]

Where do you propose putting a big tank of water above the carriages to enable a flush mechanism to operate using gravity ?

It's almost as if this problem was solved decades ago by putting the tank in the ceiling above the toilet...

 

[Need2]

It's almost as if this problem was solved decades ago by putting the tank in the ceiling above the toilet...

And how much water do you think it would need for a days workings and how much weight that would be?

 

[43096]

And how much water do you think it would need for a days workings and how much weight that would be?

Presumably the same as what was needed on other trains so fitted.

 

[sheepy1991]

Where do you propose putting a big tank of water above the carriages to enable a flush mechanism to operate using gravity ?

How do you think it was done before Controlled Emission Toilets? A water tank in the roof usually above the toilet. Normally noticeable as the ceiling is lower. All mk3 based stock was like this and I would imagine was the same on mk2 stock too.

 

[aleggatta]

It's almost as if this problem was solved decades ago by putting the tank in the ceiling above the toilet...

The big issue with toilets on trains, is that new toilets, whilst having an overhead water storage tank, operate using vacuum generator from the main res air, enabling less water to be used per flush, enabling the wastewater tank to be emptied less frequently, reducing trips to the disposal facilities and keeping them in service a lot longer by not having large quantities of fresh water in the tank also. the nature of this system means that there are various pneumatic valves that also have to be operated to make the system work, which also get their air supply from the main res! As a (now) armchair fitter I believe it would be possible to isolate the air on the leading coach and for the rest of the unit to remain operational, but it would be going nowhere without releasing the parking brakes, and different companies have different rules about driving without a brake pressure gauge which would be non-functional if the Leading coach was isolated. This doesn’t take into account the location of the compressor on the unit in question, which if it were the leading coach would still leave the unit without an air supply, but there would be every opportunity for the pantograph to be raised with the auxiliary air compressor, which runs off battery voltage simply to raise the pan.

 

[43066]

It's almost as if this problem was solved decades ago by putting the tank in the ceiling above the toilet...

There’s nothing like simple old school solutions to pesky modern problems. Maybe we should bring back big tanks of flammable Pintsch gas on carriage underframes to keep the lights on incase the power goes down. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[TheEdge]

Everyone going on about toilets being too complex.

We had simple gravity fed toilets on trains for decades. Everyone was complaining about how they spread raw sewage everywhere. So everyone changed over to CET and now people are complaining they fill up or break down.

You can't have both.

 

[DarloRich]

I know this forum loves to dunk on the railways and declare it should have been an easy fix and done in 15 minutes but this was a petty decent operation to be honest.

Haynes big book of railway operations:

SEction 543, paragraph 589, sub section 421a - bird strike

Rectification time: 17 minutes

It's almost as if this problem was solved decades ago by putting the tank in the ceiling above the toilet...

I am sure.

Not sure where you put the waste mind. On the track isnt the answer becuase if i on the rare occasions i am track side and dont want to work in your pooh why should the poor sods who are there everyday?

 

[SamYeager]

It was recognised as a serious issue by the driver and fleet very quickly (modern stock phoning home is very good for this), a fitter was dispatched from Norwich on the first available up train to get dropped off, along with staff from Crown Point by road. Fitter declared it as a failure pretty fast once they were on site. 1Z99 was mobilised at Norwich in short order and was waiting at its signal for the call to be made about an evacuation or rescue, on site staff called it as a rescue, 1Z99 went off, coupled and dragged it back.

There wasn't really any huge delays in the process last night, or at least delays (travel time/coupling time) that can practically be reduced.

When there was that issue with people stuck on various trains due to a failed train on 3rd rail that then self evacuated I seem to remember talk of some policy that passengers should be evacuated after an hour. Does that policy only apply to 3rd rail trains or just that TOC or maybe only in sub zero temperatures? I'm just wondering whether it might have made more sense for the fitter to be sent out with a rescue loco/train.

 

[Dieseldriver]

But that’s the key thing. We’ve also had a knowledgeable and insightful response upthread as to why it doesn’t sound excessive in this case.

The point I was getting at is that the assumption on here *always* seems to be that, however long something takes, it’s much too long and should be doable more quickly, but for railway incompetence, blah bah blah.

I blame the unions and their outdated, antiquated working practices….

 

[E27007]

i don’t know the specifics of this incident but failed passenger trains blocking the GE are usually rescued in less than 3 hours in my experience.

How much of the three hours was occupied making the failed unit fit to travel?
Repair work to to the unit so it could be hauled or propelled with a continous brake in the formation, , so the unit would not be a " un-braked swinger"

 

[GordonT]

In many (but not all) cases fewer lengthy delays were incurred in pre-fragmentation BR days by the expedient of responsibility for declaring a unit failure resting with the driver on the spot and the ability of control, signaller and driver of following train to enable the following train to tie up to and power the failed train onwards. Nowadays the process has to contend with interfacing the multiple fingers in the pie, increased incompatibility of coupling different types of stock and stricter regulation. I'm not saying that the former ways of working were beyond criticism or the current ways of working are unreasonable just pointing out that the former and current regimes had different inputs resulting in different outputs.

 

[TUC]

If they open the outside doors to allow pax to "go" then that lets in cold air, so the benefit is lost? One solution, and I think this works for women too, is a little bag called a "Traveljohn" which when used, the liquid turns into a non-smelling gel and can be disposed of safely. If trains routinely carried a dozen of those (they take little space) the problem might be avoided. Due to my issues I regularly carry one with me in my bag - just in case.

There is no way that would be acceptable to most people, including myself.

 

[Howardh]

There is no way that would be acceptable to most people, including myself.

What's the alternative?

 

[Lost property]

The size of the bird isn't necessarily a critical factor, more where it hits, what it hits, and how hard it hits. There are probably multiple bird strikes every day with the vast majority doing no damage other than to the bird.

Indeed, and I'm more than familiar with bird strikes and the damage that can result. As you correctly say, size doesn't matter in this case.

I once memorably saw a dead pigeon on the cab screen held in place by the wipers on a Voyager at Derby...it was still there when the train departed which I thought was a bit odd as it would have taken only minutes to remove, quick wash over, and vision no longer impaired so one happy driver.

Thanks for the other replies and indeed the rest of the perspectives offered. I could offer a detailed analysis of the merits of gravity fed and vacuum aircraft toilets ...and the delights of removing blockages, needles, tins, little bags of, ahem, substances if anybody was really interested, but somehow I suspect wisely not.

I understand the Amps + Air implicitly which leads to more questions please. Where is / are the compressor(s) located on trains because, given the location, it would be a fair bet to say the deceased was a pheasant, never noted for getting more than 10ft above the ground and with an intrinsic death wish at the best of times, so I assume underneath the carriages. If so, why isn't it possible to isolate, mechanically or electrically, a failed compressor and use a redundancy back up system please. Also, with this incident in mind, will there now be a retrospective modification programme to instal mesh protection across the inlet ?

 

[O L Leigh]

I understand the Amps + Air implicitly which leads to more questions please. Where is / are the compressor(s) located on trains because, given the location, it would be a fair bet to say the deceased was a pheasant, never noted for getting more than 10ft above the ground and with an intrinsic death wish at the best of times, so I assume underneath the carriages. If so, why isn't it possible to isolate, mechanically or electrically, a failed compressor and use a redundancy back up system please. Also, with this incident in mind, will there now be a retrospective modification programme to instal mesh protection across the inlet ?

If you look back through the thread you will see that this specific incident was caused by the bird damaging the coupling connector block, not the compressor itself (of which I would imagine the big FLIRTs have more than one). This can cause a short circuit or overload big enough to trip a main fuse somewhere and kill the train.

Assuming you do get a damaged compressor, what you do next depends largely on what the precise nature of the damage is. If it’s just packed up and you have another one elsewhere on the train, you may not even know you have a fault. But if you have a big air leak as a consequence you may be in for an exciting time as you may not be able to do much about it.

A small leak may be OK provided any remaining compressors can keep the main res pressure high enough throughout the train, but if it’s too big then you’ll lose pressure and finally trip a low main air governor which will put the emergency brake on.

If it’s a big leak you may have no option but to isolate the entire vehicle, but this will also isolate any other vehicles downstream from your remaining compressor(s). Any isolated vehicles will need the brake supply isolating, although with no main air supply it’s not so important. You’d also need to use the EBS in the lead cab to take the low main air governors out of circuit and, unless a fitter has attended and wound them off, you’ll have to drive the train against the parking brakes.

So no, it’s not a simple job.

As for providing better protection, most of these items are already fairly well protected. Any damage caused by bird strikes is normally limited to the front of the train. It’s not unknown for dead birds and other debris to rattle along underneath the train and cause damage, but it is actually quite rare. I’ve only once had anything like this when a dead bird broke the radiator drain cock which cost me an engine, but that was because I’d hit a Guinea Fowl which had got out of a poultry farm, and is basically like a bowling ball with feathers.

 

[43066]

When there was that issue with people stuck on various trains due to a failed train on 3rd rail that then self evacuated I seem to remember talk of some policy that passengers should be evacuated after an hour. Does that policy only apply to 3rd rail trains or just that TOC or maybe only in sub zero temperatures? I'm just wondering whether it might have made more sense for the fitter to be sent out with a rescue loco/train.

From memory of that incident (which I believe was the Lewisham stranding incident a couple of years back where multiple trains were stranded due to ice on the juice rail), various people on here decreed that it should *always* be possible to evacuate trains in less than an hour*. I don’t believe that is (or realistically could ever be) a policy given the almost infinite number of variables at play. These incidents can happen literally anywhere at anytime.

*including some of the same people who had earlier that day been criticising the TOC involved for advising against travel!

I once memorably saw a dead pigeon on the cab screen held in place by the wipers on a Voyager at Derby...it was still there when the train departed which I thought was a bit odd as it would have taken only minutes to remove, quick wash over, and vision no longer impaired so one happy driver.

Unfortunately they can stick onto the wipers and are difficult/impossible to remove without clambering all over the front of the unit. There are brooms provided at some locations but more often they’re just left to eventually fall off in the slip stream!

 

[FOH]

Indeed. There are often multiple strikes per journey for higher speed stock. It’s very rare for this kind of damage to happen as a result of a bird strike. It has certainly been known to happen when larger animals are hit.

Interesting. Is that why higher speed trains have coupler covers or is that purely for streamlining do you know?

 

[Haywain]

The size of the bird isn't necessarily a critical factor,

It's very important from a delay attribution perspective.

From memory of that incident (which I believe was the Lewisham stranding incident a couple of years back where multiple trains were stranded due to ice on the juice rail), various people on here decreed that it should *always* be possible to evacuate trains in less than an hour*. I don’t believe that is (or realistically could ever be) a policy given the almost infinite number of variables at play. These incidents can happen literally anywhere at anytime.

As you say, 'anywhere at anytime'. It's all very well people talking about evacuating a train but that depends where it has failed; just outside Lewisham station evacuation makes sense but in the middle of nowhere on the GE main line might mean a long walk to get to somewhere with access and means closing the line completely for a considerable time.

 

[stonojnr]

It's very important from a delay attribution perspective.

As you say, 'anywhere at anytime'. It's all very well people talking about evacuating a train but that depends where it has failed; just outside Lewisham station evacuation makes sense but in the middle of nowhere on the GE main line might mean a long walk to get to somewhere with access and means closing the line completely for a considerable time.

the BBC report claimed it was near Diss https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63013871 how near Diss who knows, I wouldnt have thought it a grand idea to evacuate the train on the GEML there.

But thats why Im surprised GAs playbook is send a fitter first to find out what the problem is, and attempt a fix, and only when they work out they cant fix it on site, then rescuing the train, rather than just simply commiting up front to recover the train, safely of course, to the nearest station to let passengers off as quickly as you can, who can then continue their journey to Norwich on the trains you are obviously still routing around the broken train because the GEML wasnt blocked for 3hrs, so they must have been sharing the London bound line for trains still heading to Norwich.

I mean yeah Im sure 3hrs was maybe the quickest turnaround for the steps of the process they followed, it doesnt mean they followed the quickest process that would have benefited the passengers more.

also is it just me and my google search skills are failing, but did none of the local newspapers pick this story up at all ??

 

[TheEdge]

the BBC report claimed it was near Diss https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63013871 how near Diss who knows, I wouldnt have thought it a grand idea to evacuate the train on the GEML there.

It wasn't really that near Diss, probably closer to Norwich. It's almost 20 miles where there is very little except fields, farms and small villages. The only railway features are level crossings. While it's not Siberia it is pretty rural and all but maybe 2 of the level crossings are small lanes, not suitable to start bringing coaches up to move a train load of people.

But thats why Im surprised GAs playbook is send a fitter first to find out what the problem is, and attempt a fix, and only when they work out they cant fix it on site, then rescuing the train, rather than just simply commiting up front to recover the train, safely of course, to the nearest station to let passengers off as quickly as you can, who can then continue their journey to Norwich on the trains you are obviously still routing around the broken train because the GEML wasnt blocked for 3hrs, so they must have been sharing the London bound line for trains still heading to Norwich.

Because in this case the coupler and air system was the issue. It wasn't going to move until that was fixed, regardless of intent. The leak was bad enough that the 2 compressors on the 745 couldn't keep up, so the compressor on the 755 was equally going to do nothing.

 

[43066]

But thats why Im surprised GAs playbook is send a fitter first to find out what the problem is, and attempt a fix, and only when they work out they cant fix it on site, then rescuing the train, rather than just simply commiting up front to recover the train, safely of course, to the nearest station to let passengers off as quickly as you can, who can then continue their journey to Norwich on the trains you are obviously still routing around the broken train because the GEML wasnt blocked for 3hrs, so they must have been sharing the London bound line for trains still heading to Norwich.

I mean yeah Im sure 3hrs was maybe the quickest turnaround for the steps of the process they followed, it doesnt mean they followed the quickest process that would have benefited the passengers more.

Because (fairly obviously) rescuing a train is far more disruptive and takes longer than sending a fitter. It would be stupid to start with the most disruptive solution when (according to what was known at the time) the fitter might have been able to rectify the situation.

also is it just me and my google search skills are failing, but did none of the local newspapers pick this story up at all ??

Probably not, because to most people in the real world this is a complete non story. A friend of mine was stuck on a delayed flight at Gatwick for a couple of hours yesterday. Do you seriously think that’s a newsworthy event?

 

[dk1]

also is it just me and my google search skills are failing, but did none of the local newspapers pick this story up at all ??

Which surprises me as the small local papers are usually full of non newsworthy stories such as this. Perhaps the bakers had run out of flour or there was an exceptionally large queue in the library that day.

 

[TheEdge]

Which surprises me as the small local papers are usually full of non newsworthy stories such as this. Perhaps the bakers had run out of flour or there was an exceptionally large queue in the library that day.

True, its not like the EDP to miss a chance to bash GA.

 

[dk1]

True, its not like the EDP to miss a chance to bash GA.

And to think we named a loco after them once lol.

 

[Javelin_55]

It's very important from a delay attribution perspective.

Not any more. The size of the bird no longer matters, attribution is now done on the basis of the location of the strike.

NR if the bird hits the interface between the power supply and the train (so conductor shoe or pan essentially), or TOC if it hits anywhere else.

 

[Cowley]

I think we’re pretty much done here. Thanks everyone.