A decline in seat comfort: Who made the decision?

[mmh]

People who travel in Ministerial cars and/or get a car allowance? It’s interesting isn’t it comparing a seat in a train to seats in mid price range cars.

I don't think he'll have ever considered he should have an opinion on train seats, but I have sat across the aisle from the Prime Minister on a class 377 ironing board

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we travelling on the same 720s?

They are far softer.

Maybe the 700s are softer once the base has collapsed, though.

It is possible that I got the newest 720 and the oldest 717 (I did both in succession via Hertford to get a decent comparison).

I preferred the 720 colour scheme but everything else about the 717.

 

[supervc-10]

The old original 158 seats are very comfy, but the backrests are so thick that whilst the seat pitch is fine, the legroom isn't. I'm 6'2 and struggle in the airline seats. I'd certainly rather the fairly firm Grammar seating (I think? - as used on the EMR 158s) if I can't get a table seat. And if you have a table seat, you inevitably end up playing footsie with whoever is sitting opposite!

Regarding seats in cars- I've not been in any car as comfortable as an older Citroen XM a family friend used to have. Even 'luxury' cars like BMWs don't come close to the soft squidgy seats of the Citroen. Citroen have been advertising about comfortable seats recently- I've not ridden in a more recent Citroen product so can't really comment on what they're like now, but had the previous shape Berlingo as a taxi a few times and that was awful!

 

[Mike Machin]

I've not encountered any comfortable seats on trains since the last of the MK1 compartment firsts were withdrawn from service. Travelling on any train now is a totally anodyne experience similar to using a low-cost airline. I still love trains, but for actual travelling, I much prefer my car!

 

[JonathanH]

The old original 158 seats are very comfy, but the backrests are so thick that whilst the seat pitch is fine, the legroom isn't.

Only with the later, deeper cushion. The original base cushion was nothing special and used to collapse over time.

 

[Flinn Reed]

I think in some cases, it's not just down to the seat itself but the type of fabric applied on top - for example comparing the blue SWR seat covers with the SWT's more comfortable red moquette.

And as others have mentioned, it's a shame many perfectly good seats from withdrawn trains are being disposed of. Would make a big difference to a number of train types. Or even for new trains rather than refurbishments - such as if GWR had reused all of their HST seats for the 800s/802s?

The old original 158 seats are very comfy, but the backrests are so thick that whilst the seat pitch is fine, the legroom isn't. I'm 6'2 and struggle in the airline seats. I'd certainly rather the fairly firm Grammar seating (I think? - as used on the EMR 158s) if I can't get a table seat. And if you have a table seat, you inevitably end up playing footsie with whoever is sitting opposite!

Regarding seats in cars- I've not been in any car as comfortable as an older Citroen XM a family friend used to have. Even 'luxury' cars like BMWs don't come close to the soft squidgy seats of the Citroen. Citroen have been advertising about comfortable seats recently- I've not ridden in a more recent Citroen product so can't really comment on what they're like now, but had the previous shape Berlingo as a taxi a few times and that was awful!

Not sure if they are the same as on 158s, but I don't think SWR's 159 seats are that comfortable. The desiro-style seats from the 455s would be a welcome upgrade, particularly for longer journeys such as London-Exeter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think in some cases, it's not just down to the seat itself but the type of fabric applied on top - for example comparing the blue SWR seat covers with the SWT's more comfortable red moquette.

It is definitely the case that the feeling of "sitting on a metal bar" you get from Fainsa Sophia seats is less pronounced when the cover is moquette than when it is flat cloth. The few millimetres of carpet like fabric adds a noticeable bit more padding.

I originally thought it was because the cushions has been changed but now they've all aged a bit it's definitely not.

 

[XAM2175]

Unpopular opinion, but I'm actually happy that I can actually sit upright and look out the window or use the table in modern seats, compared to being slumped into some awkward semi-reclined posture that ruins my back and/or neck. I agree that a bit more padding wouldn't go astray though.

 

[supervc-10]

I think in some cases, it's not just down to the seat itself but the type of fabric applied on top - for example comparing the blue SWR seat covers with the SWT's more comfortable red moquette.

And as others have mentioned, it's a shame many perfectly good seats from withdrawn trains are being disposed of. Would make a big difference to a number of train types. Or even for new trains rather than refurbishments - such as if GWR had reused all of their HST seats for the 800s/802s?

Not sure if they are the same as on 158s, but I don't think SWR's 159 seats are that comfortable. The desiro-style seats from the 455s would be a welcome upgrade, particularly for longer journeys such as London-Exeter.

Interesting you say that- my main experience of those seats is really on the 159s. The ones with the red moquette are definitely better than the 'refurbished' flat cloth, but the basic seat design still works well for me.

Unpopular opinion, but I'm actually happy that I can actually sit upright and look out the window or use the table in modern seats, compared to being slumped into some awkward semi-reclined posture that ruins my back and/or neck. I agree that a bit more padding wouldn't go astray though.

I do agree with this though- it's why I like the seats used on the Desiros, and the GWR HST refurbs, EMR 158s, etc etc. IIRC they're all the same manufacturer, Grammer, although I might be wrong. They have some padding, but they're in a good position so you don't slump. Thameslink ironing boards have good posture, but the firmness of the seat base ruins things.

Of course, with anything seat comfort wise, it's all very much personal opinion.

 

[Mikey C]

To me a Kent coast 375 (4 abreast) has nicer seats than the slamdoors it replaced, ditto a Chiltern Turbostar when compared to the old DMUs or Mk1 carriages.

While the Networker seats aren't great, to me they're definitely better than the EPB predecessor seats which were poorly shaped and bouncy

 

[DJ_K666]

They were probably chosen by someone who doesn't have to travel in them. I would like 'A Word' with that person.

They might see my point of view after being strapped in one for several hours.[/joke]

Joking aside I think they should try travelling Brighton to Bedford or Brighton to Cambridge in one and see what they say afterwards.

 

[32475]

I travel from London to Scotland by train several times a year but because of covid I didn’t get my first Azuma experience until yesterday. Lovely trains but what bloody uncomfortable seats especially for a six hour journey and I’m not relishing the prospect of the return journey on Saturday. It’s a real case of spoiling the ship for a haporth of tar.
Sadly for LNER but for the benefit of Avanti, I’ll be sticking to the west coast route in the future.

 

[greyman42]

Presume the "management" wouldn't normally ever be travelling on an Anglo-Scottish route in Standard Class, or is the seating in First Class in Azuma's equally as poor?

First class is just a bigger uncomfortable seat.

I travel from London to Scotland by train several times a year but because of covid I didn’t get my first Azuma experience until yesterday. Lovely trains but what bloody uncomfortable seats especially for a six hour journey and I’m not relishing the prospect of the return journey on Saturday. It’s a real case of spoiling the ship for a haporth of tar.
Sadly for LNER but for the benefit of Avanti, I’ll be sticking to the west coast route in the future.

Avanti is far superior in terms of seat comfort.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Avanti is far superior in terms of seat comfort.

You haven't been on a refurbished 390 yet have you...?

 

[greyman42]

You haven't been on a refurbished 390 yet have you...?

No i haven't. Are they poor?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No i haven't. Are they poor?

Put it this way... after seeing a number of tweets about them from senior railway people who have been on them, I am likely to take the slower services unless I'm pressed for time...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Put it this way... after seeing a number of tweets about them from senior railway people who have been on them, I am likely to take the slower services unless I'm pressed for time...

Interesting, as the exact same seat has good reviews on Lumo. Are people just happy because it's cheap?

Not had the pleasure yet myself. I suspect the whole fleet will be done by the time I go near Avanti again; I'm not using them until they sort out their timetable.

 

[DustyBin]

People who travel in Ministerial cars and/or get a car allowance? It’s interesting isn’t it comparing a seat in a train to seats in mid price range cars.

Cars seem to have got more comfortable over the last twenty years and trains less so.

It's not just cars; buses (or certainly coaches) and aircraft have got more comfortable in my experience (obviously there will be exceptions). It's a serious issue in my opinion as it's yet another area in which rail travel compares unfavourably with the alternatives.

 

[43096]

Put it this way... after seeing a number of tweets about them from senior railway people who have been on them, I am likely to take the slower services unless I'm pressed for time...

They must be really bad if they're worse than what was there before, because the Pendolino (and Voyager) standard class seat is utterly hateful.

 

[greyman42]

They must be really bad if they're worse than what was there before, because the Pendolino (and Voyager) standard class seat is utterly hateful.

Better, in my opinion, than the seats on a 8xx.

 

[43096]

Better, in my opinion, than the seats on a 8xx.

Talk about lowest common denominator!

 

[47550]

Interesting, as the exact same seat has good reviews on Lumo. Are people just happy because it's cheap?

Not had the pleasure yet myself. I suspect the whole fleet will be done by the time I go near Avanti again; I'm not using them until they sort out their timetable.

My experience on the refurbished Pendolino is that the seat base is lower so you feel like you are sitting on the floor and the seat back is much higher which means you can’t see which seats are free as you walk down the aisle.

 

[Bevan Price]

In my opinion, the last seats that were really comfortable were those in Bulleid loco-hauled stock, and some of the GWR corridor coaches. Since then seats have slowly but steadily become harder, with reduced padding, reduced width, and often reduced legroom. As the average size of people has been tending to increase, that has had a further effect on discomfort.

 

[Wokingham]

i thought part of the problem/cause was to stop the seats being tampered with, i will now google best train seat shame they cant design some universal seat maybe call it the great british seat and hold a competition then order them to replace all seats

 

[DustyBin]

In my opinion, the last seats that were really comfortable were those in Bulleid loco-hauled stock, and some of the GWR corridor coaches. Since then seats have slowly but steadily become harder, with reduced padding, reduced width, and often reduced legroom. As the average size of people has been tending to increase, that has had a further effect on discomfort.

I used to really like the seats in the CIGs/BIGs and even the VEPs were pretty comfortable really. Most of the seats from the 1990s were comfortable enough (158s and MK4s for example) but we now seem to be experiencing a steady decline in seat comfort. The attitude now seems to be “trains get you from A to B, they’re not supposed to be enjoyable” unfortunately.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm no great fan of Mk3 derived EMUs myself (other than the lovely restful sound made by a departing 319 on 25kV) but a 317 is certainly substantially more comfortable. I don't mind hard seats (the original ironing board is not one of my dislikes, really) but the 720 is just junk.

There's plenty of 'normals' out there that would agree with you. I doubt that 20 year old females in Cambridge are class 317 cranks!

 

[MattRat]

The seats are clearly chosen by people who have never, and will never, sit on a train. They are either chaffeur driven or get a private jet everywhere. It explains a lot of other problems with trains as well. If we could someone force the people in charge to use trains, things would change overnight.

 

[Mikey C]

I used to really like the seats in the CIGs/BIGs and even the VEPs were pretty comfortable really. Most of the seats from the 1990s were comfortable enough (158s and MK4s for example) but we now seem to be experiencing a steady decline in seat comfort. The attitude now seems to be “trains get you from A to B, they’re not supposed to be enjoyable” unfortunately.

Plenty of Turbostar and Electrostar seats are very nice, e.g. the Chiltern 168s or the 4 abreast Southeastern 375s. They might be worn out, but the 222s are comfortable enough.

I never found the VEPS especially comfortable

 

[DustyBin]

Plenty of Turbostar and Electrostar seats are very nice, e.g. the Chiltern 168s or the 4 abreast Southeastern 375s. They might be worn out, but the 222s are comfortable enough.

I never found the VEPS especially comfortable

Actually you’re right re the Turbostars and Electrostars, they’re generally not bad (although I seldom travel on any of them).

 

[43301]

It always seems to be suggested that the cheapest seats are used without any evidence as to what successive seat models cost. Part of the issue is likely to be that seats stop being manufactured or are deemed unsuitable.

Not the case. For example the Grammer IC3000 seats as used in FGW HSTs and various 158s are still a currently model (so must be compliant), and are decent seats. OK, some think they are a bit tall but they are generally well-regarded.

Unlike the awful Fainsa seats in the 80s trains which have few fans.

Of course another issue is that once a 'standard' has been set then future builds often stick to it, even if it's crap. As seen with the 80x, and assorted units with the even worse Fainsa ironing board seats.