A few questions about Oxenholme (and the Windermere branch in general)

[philjo]

Another option would be to use a 221 unit & couple it with a Chester service & split/divide at Crewe. would allow say 2 Windermere services per day. The existing Lancaster pendolinos can extend to Glasgow (as is happening this summer) and can have a reduced stopping pattern for those hours as the Windermere services will fill in the gaps. Would also give MK a couple of direct daytime Warrington/Wigan/Preston/Lancaster services that are not currently provided.

The main problem with the buses at Windermere is that the buses run to an hourly timetable. The current train timetable is not a clockface hourly pattern so the connections vary from hour to hour (& the same with the mainline services at Oxenholme/Lancaster)
It would be much better if a passing loop allowed a clockface half hourly Windermere-Oxenholme service which connected properly with the clockface WCML timetable even if it meant the majority of trains only shuttled up and down the loop.
The evening buses are less frequent and do not seem to run to a regular time with some long gaps in the buses to Ambleside or Grasmere.

 

[exile]

So there's not enough passengers for a half hourly bus service but you want a half hourly train service?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So there's not enough passengers for a half hourly bus service but you want a half hourly train service?

I don't think it's unusual for a train service to be more frequent than a bus service along a parallel route (Alton to Farnham is one example: Half hourly trains, hourly buses) - because trains tend to serve a different market (including people who are travelling longer distances, and people who aren't normally willing to use buses).

 

[apk55]

The line was once double track (until 1973) so...

Electrification would be quite easy as the track could just be aligned to the centre of bridge arches to get clearance. Power supply you could probably get away with an end feed from the West coast line.

If a loop is to be installed it could be a long dynamic loop say from Kendal to Burneside. However I do question if it would really be worth while. If excursions are to be considered a second platform (plus possible run round facilities) at Windermere and a signal half way along the branch. The excursion train could leave as soon as the branch line train arrived and by the time the branch line train was ready to return the excursion train would would have passed the intermediate signal.

If it was electrified I would expect it be run using units from Manchester pool of stock and a few scheduled runs to Manchester could be used to rotate units.

 

[johnnychips]

And don't just stop at connections from Windermere. A similar service from the Cumbrian Coast line would be great for places like Wasdale and Ennerdale. And how about a similar service from Penrith to Keswick and beyond for the Northern Fells?

Anyone remember the Mountain Goat bus service, using Transit minibuses from Windermere - Ambleside - Langdale - Duddon Valley - Wasdale in the late 70s/early 80s. I suppose they didn't make any money.

 

[John55]

Anyone remember the Mountain Goat bus service, using Transit minibuses from Windermere - Ambleside - Langdale - Duddon Valley - Wasdale in the late 70s/early 80s. I suppose they didn't make any money.

http://www.mountain-goat.com/#

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If a loop is to be installed it could be a long dynamic loop say from Kendal to Burneside. However I do question if it would really be worth while. If excursions are to be considered a second platform (plus possible run round facilities) at Windermere and a signal half way along the branch. The excursion train could leave as soon as the branch line train arrived and by the time the branch line train was ready to return the excursion train would would have passed the intermediate signal.

I wouldn't be so sure. The branch trains tend to turn around quite quickly at Windermere - sometimes as little as a few minutes.

 

[The Planner]

It tends to alternate between the absolute minimum you can allow of 4 minutes and 15 or 16.

 

[apk55]

Electric trains would probably be quicker than the current DMU which would translate to a longer turnaround at the ends. Minimum turn around trains are likely to be all station stoppers so locate the signal around a third of the way along the line.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think Electric trains would be an improvement.

If any redoubling or installation of passing loops take place then the current signalling would have to be replaced?


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[Tomnick]

If I'm not mistaken, the branch is currently worked under the One Train Working regs with a train staff - so there's no signalling to speak of away from Oxenholme. Any scheme to provide a passing loop on the branch or to provide facilities to 'shut inside' a train at Windermere (the latter not even necessarily requiring additional signals!) would therefore require an element of resignalling.

 

[Whistler40145]

If in the future the line is electrified & passing loops installed, would the line be a candidate for ERTMS?


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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?puunib

 

[Tomnick]

Not on its own - it's far too short to justify the investment required for both the infrastructure and the kit on the (numerous) units that work over the branch.

 

[mbonwick]

Just so we're clear, in summer there is actually quite a good range of bus services from Windermere;

555 Kendal - Keswick every 30mins, Lancaster every hour
599 Bowness - Windermere - Grasmere every 20mins with Open Tops
505 Windermere - Coniston ever hour
800 Windermere - Grizedale Forest irregular timetable

599 and 800 have bike racks fitted, 505 should do by next year as well.

 

[Bevan Price]

If the Windermere branch is to be electrified, I assume that it will have to be operated by 4-car EMUs so platform extensions will be useful if the TOC is to avoid SDO although SDO would be cheaper.

I suspect that it will be a very long time before the Windermere line gets electrified - probably after lines like Wigan - Southport or the Calder Valley are done (2030's ?) In the meantime - there should be some surplus 150's or 156's when the current electrification plans are completed. Services like Oxenholme - Windermere, and Lancaster - Barrow may become a last refuge for the 150's........

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry to cast a wet blanket over all the joviality and service planning on this thread, but can someone give the stated Network Rail position with regards to either a loop installation or the doubling of the trackwork on the Windermere branch line and also, the current stated Network Rail position with regard to improvements in both platform length and facilities of the station provision at Kendal, Burneside and Staveley.

 

[Waverley125]

Ok, here's an idea

if the Windermere branch is to be electrified as part of TPNW, then that should work out at an hourly 4-car EMU through to Manchester airport, easily enough for the winter season.

In summer, would it be worthwhile adding a second hourly Oxenholme-Windermere shuttle service, potentially operated by a 'heritage', i.e. first generation, DMU? There's definitely some good-quality 117s lying around that could be done up to work such a summer-only service.

Also, the already suggested renaming of Oxenholme to Kendal South and reinstatement of run-round loop at Windermere are good. I'd add instating a second platform (for stabling) at Windermere and a passing point at Kendal, as well as run-round at Kendal South. Potentially then for steam shuttles in the summer.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Sorry to cast a wet blanket over all the joviality and service planning on this thread, but can someone give the stated Network Rail position with regards to either a loop installation or the doubling of the trackwork on the Windermere branch line and also, the current stated Network Rail position with regard to improvements in both platform length and facilities of the station provision at Kendal, Burneside and Staveley.

In summary, it has no infrastructure plans. There are no proposals in the L&C RUS for any works other than waiting shelters and timetable tinkering. Interestingly the CUI is 70-80% for this route, which means bordering on full (in terms of numbers of trains).

 

[snail]

I want to know where all the people are going to come from to fill these extra trains? Windermere is a nice place to spend an hour or so but suffers from being 3 miles from the Lake and at the edge of the main Lake District attractions.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

I want to know where all the people are going to come from to fill these extra trains? Windermere is a nice place to spend an hour or so but suffers from being 3 miles from the Lake and at the edge of the main Lake District attractions.

What a ridiculous and contrversial statement. The railway station is slap-bang within the naional park - with bus links to all the main 'honeypot' locations, (Kewick, Grasmere, Coniston, Ambleside etc) and is walking distance from Bownes whilst Windermere has lots to offer tourists.

 

[mullin]

PlusBus works a treat in the area too!

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

PlusBus works a treat in the area too!

Good point raised there mullin, I often think that rail passengers overlook this.

 

[paul1609]

What a ridiculous and contrversial statement. The railway station is slap-bang within the naional park - with bus links to all the main 'honeypot' locations, (Kewick, Grasmere, Coniston, Ambleside etc) and is walking distance from Bownes whilst Windermere has lots to offer tourists.

Have to say that I do have some sympathy with Snails comments. Windermere may be okay for a day trip from a Northern city but coming from Kent it wouldn't be an attractive destination for me.
Don't get me wrong I love the Lake District but most of my favourite haunts are more easily accessed from Penrith (Patterdale, Borrowdale) or have such a sparse bus service that a car is essential even for a short break (Langdale, Eskdale)

 

[snail]

I love the Lake District but most of my favourite haunts are more easily accessed from Penrith (Patterdale, Borrowdale) or have such a sparse bus service that a car is essential even for a short break (Langdale, Eskdale)

Sadly true. Fortunately my favourite Lakes destinations are on the Southern Peninsulas and reachable by train - Arnside, Grange, Ulverston, etc.

If Keswick and Cockermouth still had a rail link I would think differently about the North Lakes. If I want a break in the Lakes I don't want to spend hours getting there: 3 hours on the train from Lancaster to Workington (for Cockermouth), even longer via Windermere and interminable bus journeys.

 

[exile]

Have to say that I do have some sympathy with Snails comments. Windermere may be okay for a day trip from a Northern city but coming from Kent it wouldn't be an attractive destination for me.
Don't get me wrong I love the Lake District but most of my favourite haunts are more easily accessed from Penrith (Patterdale, Borrowdale) or have such a sparse bus service that a car is essential even for a short break (Langdale, Eskdale)

Not really. I regularly go to the Lakes without a car. Langdale has a very good bus service (change at Ambleside).

 

[bluenoxid]

Good point raised there mullin, I often think that rail passengers overlook this.

If you don't market this effectively then you cannot really expect people to know.

 

[mullin]

Can't argue to that really. I've been on a train before where passengers saw on the back of their ticket something called 'PlusBus' and 'unlimited travel'. The response from the guard was virtually 'I've never heard of it, I don't know'


Have to admit, at the time I had no idea as to the benefits it could bring...

 

[bluenoxid]

It is so funny. I see people saying that they have spotted a gap and cannot understand why people have not linked them together. Well, sadly, if people don't push them or publish them then they don't get published.

The plus bus website only states the ticket and its validity. What people want to know are services and frequencies and then the ticket that delivers this cheaply

 

[snail]

PlusBus works a treat in the area too!

But only down to Bowness or on the 555/599 route to Grasmere. It is good value though at £1.50 in July and August.

Not having used it, how does the normal fare of £4.80 compare to the regular return fares to Ambleside or Grasmere?

 

[WatcherZero]

I want to know where all the people are going to come from to fill these extra trains? Windermere is a nice place to spend an hour or so but suffers from being 3 miles from the Lake and at the edge of the main Lake District attractions.

Its also got a considerable number of working weekends, team building excercises etc where you arrive and go to hotel then transport is laid on to take you to venues.