A New Ticket Type

[Starmill]

From 6th September it would appear that a new ticket type is being introduced. I invite views (assuming there's no press release regarding this change that I have missed) on the new Anytime Short Distance Return.


Image shows Virgin Trains East Coast booking site searching for a Berwick-upon-Tweed to Newcastle, the result is for a Short Distance Anytime Return ticket at £36.20. 'Outward valid on the date shown, on all services by the route shown. Return travel any day within 1 month.'

As far as I can tell an Anytime Short Return is replacing the old Anytime Return for this flow.

I'll leave my views on this to one side for now.

 

[Crossover]

One word...'simplification'

Why make things straightforward when you can easily make it more complicated!

 

[blakey1152]

Can't wait for the Anytime Cheap Day Off-Peak One Way Return to be introduced then

 

[Mag_seven]

As far as I can tell an Anytime Short Return is replacing the old Anytime Return for this flow.

If it is essentially the same as an "Anytime Return", why change it?

 

[Hadders]

So does an Anytime Short Return mean you can start of finish short? Maybe it's for fare dodgers who want to short fare and travel further afield...

 

[OwlMan]

They are not the same as a SOR - the outward portion is only valid for 1 day not 5 days, it also has been available since 1 June.

From National rail Ticket validity Checker
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx
Anytime Short Return







Ticket type

Ticket name Anytime Short Return
Description Anytime fares are fully flexible walk-up tickets with no restrictions on when you can travel.
The Anytime Short Return has exactly the same terms and conditions as the normal Anytime Return in that there are no time restrictions, EXCEPT that the outward portion of the ticket is valid for ONE day and not FIVE days. The return validity remains the standard calendar month.
This ticket type is initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015. It's addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.

Ticket Issuing Systems will display the ticket type as SHR - ANYTIME SHORT R.

Tickets will print with ANYTIME SHORT R.

Ticket code SHR
Class Standard
Single or return Return
Validity
Outward validity
The outward portions of Anytime Short Returns are valid on the date shown on the ticket.
Return validity
Return portions of Anytime Short Return tickets are valid until 04:29 in the early morning following the last day of validity (i.e. one Calendar month from outward journey). All travel must be completed by this time.
Availability

• Purchase location
• -

• Pre-booking requirement
• Tickets can be bought in advance or immediately before travel. You can reserve a seat on many longer distance services. Reservations are recommended on busy services.There are no restrictions on when you can travel, however if you wish to change your date of outward travel or the origin and/or destination of your ticket, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your existing ticket (see below).

• Reservations compulsory
• No

Discounts Child Yes Children (aged 5 to 15 inclusive) 50% discount. Up to two children aged under 5 can travel free with each fare paying passenger. Railcard Yes Minimum fare (applicable to 16-25 and HM Forces) is £12. Group Yes
Refund & Changes

• Changes to travel plan
• -

• Refund policy
• • See ‘Refunds’ section

 

[swt_passenger]

So it would seem it is intended as a way of overcoming the alleged problem with short distance anytime returns whereby someone buys one in the hope of using it multiple times if not gripped.

The alleged problem that is generally used to explain why there are hardly any Anytime Returns for journeys under about 35-40 miles in vast areas of the SE.

 

[kieron]

Is an Anytime Short Distance Return any different from an unrestricted off-peak return (such as Northampton-Edinburgh), except that the anytime return has been withdrawn completely for Berwick-Newcastle?

I don't suppose many people who buy return tickets actually need to break the outbound part of their journeys overnight, so I can see these spreading into other tickets which currently have anytime returns.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So it would seem it is intended as a way of overcoming the alleged problem with short distance anytime returns whereby someone buys one in the hope of using it multiple times if not gripped.

But the return portion is still valid at anytime, and for a month, so would a dedicated fare evader not just buy a return in each direction and use the return portions for a month?

 

[Merseysider]

I can see this potentially doing one of three things:

Restricting choice in the long term. If NCL-BWK at 60 miles is to be considered a short distance, then Liverpool-Leeds, Birmingham-Sheffield and York-Manchester are all up for contention for removal of the SOR. There are perfectly valid reasons to want to break overnight going outward on these journeys. The Germans have a short distance ticket (Kurzstrecke) and that's only for journeys within 2 miles.

It also has the potential to be a price rise by stealth, if it replaces an SDR or an unrestricted SVR. Hopefully that won't happen.

And then you have the risk that it will confuse staff, passengers and the media who will probably find out and put an even worse spin on it than I have in my post. This hasn't got much publicity yet so I'm doubtful that passengers will even know to ask for it.

 

[gray1404]

I do sincerely hope this ticket is not used to replace an Off Peak Return on some routes!

 

[yorkie]

I do sincerely hope this ticket is not used to replace an Off Peak Return on some routes!

It appears to offer the same validity as an '8A' Off Peak Return, with the exception that break of journey is - as with the vast majority of Off Peak Returns - allowed.

 

[gray1404]

It appears to offer the same validity as an '8A' Off Peak Return, with the exception that break of journey is - as with the vast majority of Off Peak Returns - allowed.

I am sure they would offer these though at a high price then an Off Peak, because it is an "Any Time" ticket. I would not mind these people offered in addition to the current Off Peak and Anytime (with 5 days outwards validity) ticket. It would allow a customer who needed to travel at peak times, but didn't need the 5 days of outward validity, to get a cheaper price.

 

[Merseysider]

It appears to offer the same validity as an '8A' Off Peak Return, with the exception that break of journey is - as with the vast majority of Off Peak Returns - allowed.

Problem is, Off Peak Returns are regulated so can only rise by a very small amount each year, and subject to other fares being decreased by a similar amount if the rise is above RPI. These new tickets won't be regulated, and will probably be treated commercially when it comes to fare rises - even though they are effectively unrestricted Off Peak Returns in everything except name.

 

[najaB]

...even though they are effectively Off Peak Returns in everything bar name.

And that they are valid all day.

 

[Merseysider]

And that they are valid all day.

I should have written unrestricted Off Peak Return.

 

[yorkie]

I am sure they would offer these though at a high price then an Off Peak, because it is an "Any Time" ticket. I would not mind these people offered in addition to the current Off Peak and Anytime (with 5 days outwards validity) ticket. It would allow a customer who needed to travel at peak times, but didn't need the 5 days of outward validity, to get a cheaper price.

I am not sure what you're getting at but the fare that was a Saver at the time of privatisation is regulated; it can be called whatever the TOCs want to call it (Super Off Peak/Off Peak/Short Anytime/Anytime) but it has to exist at no more than the regulated price. They can offer as many additional fares as they want.

It will not, however, allow people who do not need 5 days of validity to get a "cheaper price"; it replaces the Anytime Return!

 

[gray1404]

I am not sure what you're getting at but the fare that was a Saver at the time of privatisation is regulated; it can be called whatever the TOCs want to call it (Super Off Peak/Off Peak/Short Anytime/Anytime) but it has to exist at no more than the regulated price. They can offer as many additional fares as they want.

It will not, however, allow people who do not need 5 days of validity to get a "cheaper price"; it replaces the Anytime Return!

So I assume here your saying that the Off Peak Return (formally a Saver) will have to stay in place on the routes it is currently offered because it is a regulated fare.

And, this new ticket will replace the Anytime Return currently offered that allows 5 days on the outward journey?

What I was getting at: if the currently offer Anytime Return plus this new Anytime Short Distance ticket were both offered on the same flow, then the customer would be able to choose the best ticket for them (i.e. 1 day or 5 days to compleate their outward journey.)
I was concerned that having a choice of 2 might be the Off Peak is no longer offered on some routes - but given this is regulated like what you say then it should remain.

 

[swt_passenger]

But the return portion is still valid at anytime, and for a month, so would a dedicated fare evader not just buy a return in each direction and use the return portions for a month?

Well yes, but he could already do that anyway, so that isn't really a factor against this change...

 

[yorkie]

So I assume here your saying that the Off Peak Return (formally a Saver) will have to stay in place on the routes it is currently offered because it is a regulated fare.

The regulated fare at the time of privatisation has to stay in place because it is a regulated fare.

And, this new ticket will replace the Anytime Return currently offered that allows 5 days on the outward journey?

In one weeks time it will replace the Anytime Return previously offered between Berwick and Newcastle, and very possibly elsewhere too.

What I was getting at: if the currently offer Anytime Return plus this new Anytime Short Distance ticket were both offered on the same flow, then the customer would be able to choose the best ticket for them (i.e. 1 day or 5 days to compleate their outward journey.)

I don't think that is going to happen.

I was concerned that having a choice of 2 might be the Off Peak is no longer offered on some routes -

There are loads of 'routes' (flows) where there is no Off Peak (SVS/SVR) fare.

but given this is regulated like what you say then it should remain.

They can call it what they want and it can be unrestricted, or heavily restricted in the morning or anything they want in between, but the regulated fare has to exist.

 

[Crossover]

And that they are valid all day.

For anything not London-centric, there are a couple of tickets I have used that have the rather nice BT restriction code
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/bt

 

[Starmill]

To me there are a number of problems at play here.

Firstly there has been the creation of a new ticket type. Aren't there enough already? Did somebody look at the current system, identify a problem, and then think "I know, there is a solution to this problem; it is an extra item of complexity". There is also the name - Short Distance Anytime Return or ANYTIME SHORT R. In abbreviated form it isn't that clear what it means. How short it short? Isn't that a bit subjective? Newcastle to Berwick-upon-Tweed is 70 miles, but that's apparently a 'short' distance according to Virgin Trains East Coast. Nafferton to Driffield is 2 miles, but this is apparently not a short distance according to Northern as there is an Anytime Return for that journey.

I'm also struggling to understand exactly how it's helping the train company by adding this extra level of confusion and complexity. All it seems to do is preclude use of a 'peak time' period return on the outward portion for more than one day. The return is still valid for 30 days (that's what makes it a 'period' return) and how many people wanted to break their outward overnight on a 40 minute journey? The outward portion is also highly likely to be retained by the barriers at Newcastle. How much misuse is this preventing? None that I can see, as someone who turns up at Berwick with an outward portion of an Anytime Return that was issued there 24 hours previously several times is going to look very suspicious, even in the unlikely event their ticket has not been marked and remains in their possession. There has been no change to the return portion's validity so if there was any risk there before this is unaffected.

I just don't see what they think a 'short distance' return will do. There also appears to be a slight problem with the tickets as issued, because the validity field has a very strange abbreviation in it and is the same on both portions, rather than the current Anytime Return which says FIVE DAYS on the outward and ONE MONTH on the return.

Well yes, but he could already do that anyway, so that isn't really a factor against this change...

Exactly, so what is the factor in favour of the change?

Finally lets look at this specific journey. Are we really saying that Berwick to Newcastle, a journey of 40 minutes, is not a journey anyone is going to want to do (or even not a significant proportion of the custom) there and back on the same day? Are we really saying £27.40 is the return price even if you are coming back the same day? I propose that the dishonest would buy a ticket for a day return journey and might then opportunistically re-use the ticket if it remains unmarked. But few people would pay more for a more flexible ticket on the off-chance of that. It probably enters into the minds of people when they get home and notice their ticket is valid for a month when they didn't ask for that and would never do so if this weren't the case.

So why no Anytime Day Return? Or better still an Off-Peak Day return? As they are only valid on one day they are much less open to fraud. By introducing such a fare VTEC could also stimulate short-term sales and gain customer goodwill by claiming a reduction in the fare. But instead of doing that they continue to offer a period return only so they can justify the higher price by selling a flexibility a lot of people will not need, but guard against a very small prospect of fraud by removing a fairly superfluous bit of that flexibility (I note no corresponding price decrease!) but add a whole new level of confusion when we all thought the industry was trying to move towards a less confusing fares structure? Thanks a lot VTEC. It's good to know you have thought this through so well.

And all of this before we even consider whether there is any 68 mile journey that it is really appropriate to be selling, at the cheapest, a £25.75 single for.

 

[kieron]

So far, I know of examples of two uses for this type of ticket:

1. Using an "Anytime Short Return" to replace an "Anytime Return" at the same price for Newcastle-Berwick-upon-Tweed. This reduces the range of options available to the customer.

2. Using an "Anytime Short Return" to create a new fare for Leeds-Doncaster, a flow which already had an off-peak return, but didn't have a period return without time restrictions. It's priced at a small discount to the cost of a day single in each direction. This increases the range of options available to the customer.

I couldn't find any of these fares in the current fare feed download, so I don't know where else they're available. I'm not that familiar with the files, though, so it may be that I didn't look in the right place.

Obviously, Virgin Trains East Coast are the people most likely to know why they decided to do this, but I don't know how much they'd be able to say about it.

 

[Starmill]

It's times like this I feel that it might actually be in the own interest of some train companies to have a Verified Representative on a public forum like this one. Obviously they would be free to say as much or as little as management would like, but I wonder if this is one of those times where actually they might like to say something. Maybe not; just a progressive thought.