A YouGov poll on fare evasion in London

[BostonGeorge]

YouGov poll

YouGov have published a poll into the issue of fare evasion in London. Make of it what you will. I'd be curious to read what TfL staff make of it because it does feel more like an attack on their performance than anything else, as the article writer leads with the headline "Half of London Tube and train travellers say they’ve seen TfL staff fail to challenge fare dodgers". It also appears the writer is under the impression TfL staff SHOULD be "challenging", "tackling" or "confronting" fare evaders as a matter of policy. I understand this is not the case, and CSA's are specifically advised to refrain from getting involved because there have been numerous examples of this leading to assaults.

Any thoughts?

 

[gabrielhj07]

I was interested by this:

While the recent crackdown on fare evasion has not generated much by the way of a return, many Londoners see no reason to stop. Four in ten (40%) say that the priority should be cracking down on fare dodgers, even if the money recouped does not cover the cost of enforcement. However, a further 33% would prefer to save the money spent on enforcement, even if it means fare evaders will be able to continue getting away without paying.

I'm in the 40% here. Going after dishonest behaviour like this should be the prime concern, over recovering lost revenue.

 

[sjoh]

I was interested by this:



I'm in the 40% here. Going after dishonest behaviour like this should be the prime concern, over recovering lost revenue.

There's probably something to be said about the longer term return from enforcement action, too. Just because the enforcement doesn't recoup it's costs on a like-for-like basis, doesn't mean that it won't do in the longer term due to increased risks of getting caught leading to behavioral change.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There's probably something to be said about the longer term return from enforcement action, too. Just because the enforcement doesn't recoup it's costs on a like-for-like basis, doesn't mean that it won't do in the longer term due to increased risks of getting caught leading to behavioral change.

I agree, it is not just about recouping lost revenue.
It also gets rid of people more likely to be antisocial.
Most importantly not enforcing fares sends a message that anyone can dodge the fare. Indeed it makes people who pay wonder why they should.

I have got on a bus late evening and noticed under 50% making an effort to pay or show a card. Many might be entitled to free travel but they should still have a version of the Oyster card allowing free travel. It is turning into anarchy.

 

[43066]

YouGov poll

YouGov have published a poll into the issue of fare evasion in London. Make of it what you will. I'd be curious to read what TfL staff make of it because it does feel more like an attack on their performance than anything else, as the article writer leads with the headline "Half of London Tube and train travellers say they’ve seen TfL staff fail to challenge fare dodgers". It also appears the writer is under the impression TfL staff SHOULD be "challenging", "tackling" or "confronting" fare evaders as a matter of policy. I understand this is not the case, and CSA's are specifically advised to refrain from getting involved because there have been numerous examples of this leading to assaults.

Any thoughts?

Not sure it necessarily reflects a poor performance, rather a reality of the system, as staff are unable to effectively challenge fare evaders. Indeed, in common with most railway operators, the policy is that they should not attempt to physically intervene, so complying with that is simply doing what their job requires of them, albeit the “optics” clearly aren’t good from the point of view of a paying passenger.

Also interesting to see that the idea of taking a stricter approach to revenue enforcement is actually quite popular amongst the public even if it the money recouped doesn’t cover the costs of doing so. That suggests the public at large are perhaps more enthusiastic about rigorous enforcement than the general consensus of opinion on this forum, where enforcement is often criticised (whether that’s people being asked to see railcards, complaints about too many ticket checks, penalty fares, prosecutions etc.).

It would be interesting to see how that varies around the country: intuitively I’d imagine enthusiasm for enforcement is likely to be even greater elsewhere, as London has a younger/more diverse/more liberal population than much of the rest of the country.

I agree, it is not just about recouping lost revenue.
It also gets rid of people more likely to be antisocial.
Most importantly not enforcing fares sends a message that anyone can dodge the fare. Indeed it makes people who pay wonder why they should.

I have got on a bus late evening and noticed under 50% making an effort to pay or show a card. Many might be entitled to free travel but they should still have a version of the Oyster card allowing free travel. It is turning into anarchy.

I don’t use buses that much but seeing that would definitely make me feel “why is muggins here paying when they’re getting away with not doing so”?

 

[GFE]

Would hope that there are some innovative and economic ways ways to address fare evasion. eg Video/ CCTV to highlight culprits and exert pressures to change culture?
One of the original intentions with the "stations " plan was to make more effective use of staff + make them more visible - has this slipped?

 

[LLivery]

Many people in the UK were more than happy to back governments over staff when they striked over DOO, in favour of 'modernisation'. Now there's less staff and rising 'bumping' and crime, the same people are now annoyed.

Simply put, the only way you crack down on fare evasion is by having good staff and police presence throughout with the power to remove. From what I've seen, you can't mess around on the Italian network, while here people just do whatever. Saying that, I fundamentally believe fares are too high.

Would hope that there are some innovative and economic ways ways to address fare evasion. eg Video/ CCTV to highlight culprits and exert pressures to change culture?
One of the original intentions with the "stations " plan was to make more effective use of staff + make them more visible - has this slipped?

Cynical, but I don't think many ever believed that was a genuine intention of closing tube ticket offices. Again, a faux claim of 'modernisation'. Despite the rail ticket office outrage, as soon as a politician says 'modernisation' or 'automation' on the railways, those who have a bizarre fixation of exaggerating rail staff salaries, always welcome it. Then when the consequences of bad policy appear, they'll say 'the country is going downhill' or, ignore it.

 

[yorkie]

Many people in the UK were more than happy to back governments over staff when they striked over DOO, in favour of 'modernisation'. Now there's less staff and rising 'bumping' and crime, the same people are now annoyed.

Can you provide quotes of people who have said this?

Also, was anyone, who actually travels by train, actually wanting staff removed from trains (which is not the same thing as changing the method of operation of the train)? I don't think I've come across anyone who wants a less visible staff presence on the rail network, other than perhaps people who simply don't use public transport.

I don't get what the operation of the train has to do with anything though; I have been on many trains with Guards where no ticket check has occurred (and indeed on some routes Guards are non-commercial and do not check tickets at all, such as SWR), but on other services with an On Board Manager (OBM), ticket examiner (TE) etc, ticket checks can be very regular.

The operation of the train isn't necessarily an indicator of whether tickets will be checked.

And that's before you get into discussing systems such as London Overground, where on-train checks are rare, but revenue is massively up (by a huge factor) these days, and I would be very surprised if fare evasion isn't lower on LO than it used to be back when the trains did have Guards.

I don't think that the method of operation of trains should be brought into this discussion, as it's a separate factor to whether or not there is a visible staff presence.

Simply put, the only way you crack down on fare evasion is by having good staff and police presence throughout with the power to remove. From what I've seen, you can't mess around on the Italian network, while here people just do whatever. Saying that, I fundamentally believe fares are too high.

I completely agree.

 

[43066]

One of the original intentions with the "stations " plan was to make more effective use of staff + make them more visible - has this slipped?

I seem it remember it being reported on here that it was mostly about reducing staff numbers (@bramling and @bluegoblin7 are probably well placed to comment).

Personally I find the visible staffing levels at many LU stations woefully inadequate. I regularly use LU when commuting to and from work with a rail staff season ticket which won’t open the barriers, and quite often encounter issues trying to find staff to let me through. When I eventually find someone who isn’t overwhelmed by having to deal with several people at once, they invariably don’t know what ticket I hold (even though it states on it what it is, and I have a TOC staff ID) and an argument often ensues . Clearly their training these days is pretty woeful, and they aren’t properly equipped to deal with anything other than Oyster cards or contactless. So they aren’t necessarily a particularly useful staff presence where they can be found.

The other side of that coin, especially with the aforementioned inability for staff to physically intervene, is that there’s really very little disincentive for people not to simply push through the barriers, and indeed this can regularly be observed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Can you provide quotes of people who have said this?

Also, was anyone, who actually travels by train, actually wanting staff removed from trains (which is not the same thing as changing the method of operation of the train)? I don't think I've come across anyone who wants a less visible staff presence on the rail network, other than perhaps people who simply don't use public transport.

I don't get what the operation of the train has to do with anything though; I have been on many trains with Guards where no ticket check has occurred (and indeed on some routes Guards are non-commercial and do not check tickets at all, such as SWR), but on other services with an On Board Manager (OBM), ticket examiner (TE) etc, ticket checks can be very regular.

The operation of the train isn't necessarily an indicator of whether tickets will be checked.

And that's before you get into discussing systems such as London Overground, where on-train checks are rare, but revenue is massively up (by a huge factor) these days, and I would be very surprised if fare evasion isn't lower on LO than it used to be back when the trains did have Guards.

I don't think that the method of operation of trains should be brought into this discussion, as it's a separate factor to whether or not there is a visible staff presence.

I completely agree.

I agree having a visible staff presence is a real benefit if that staff member is able to cover the whole train checking tickets, overseeing anything unexpected and helping less able or lost passengers. This is made a lot easier if other duties are removed - the doors and dispatch to a greater or lesser extent.

I agree with others that onboard staff (or platform staff) cannot be expected to get too strong on enforcement BUT any encounter that leads to discovery of ticket-less travel or anti-social behaviour should be kept as video evidence from the CCTV.

Eventually the person(s) will be identified and a collection of various events over time built up (AI is getting increasingly good at identifying people in videos apparently). Then its a special effort to corner them with enough physical staff/enforcers. It is the serial offenders that are worth the extra effort to go for. They are easier as there is usually a regular pattern of travel.

I have been on trains where people are quite open about fare evasion. A group of teenagers on a train from Redhill to Tonbridge where one was being questioned by the others as to why they bought a ticket !. I was sat in a Wetherspoons one lunchtime and could hear a young lady telling her gran how she always remembered to select a child fare but never needed a railcard or anything like that.

It leads me to believe there are plenty of people who just go for the cheapest option. They are not making a conscious decision to cheat but really have no moral compass or put more kindly - sense of caution. I am also aware that people unquestioningly do what others on the internet have told them can be done. For example apparently you can dump any sofas, cookers etc on the small green/verge at the end of the road. I asked the resident how they thought that was allowed and he showed me something from the web. A US (United States) site !. Go figure if it is actually legal in the US but if it is then remember the UK is not part of the US.

There is so much mis-information out there on the internet encouraging illegal or at least bad behaviour. Perhaps some of the fare enforcement effort could go into a lot more posts on social media explaining/illustrating how wrong it is. Mind you nowadays wrong is not a moral word it is just wrong if it comes back to bite you (a fine). It seems the likes of Donald Trump have cottoned on to the power of social media and he has no morals.

 

[43066]

I agree having a staff member within the passenger area is a real benefit if that staff member is roaming the whole train checking tickets, overseeing anything unexpected and helping less able or lost passengers. This is made a lot easier if the traditional guards duties are automated - the doors and dispatch to a greater or lesser extent.

It’s fair to say dispatch isn’t automated anywhere, it’s just a question of whether the platform staff, guard or driver does it.

Guards don’t really make sense on London Overground, but worth remembering that when they were removed more staff were employed on stations due to TfL’s involvement, and all LO stations are guaranteed to be staffed first to last trains. When the same thing happened two decades prior on SE Metro, many of the staff were simply not replaced and there is now no on train staff presence at all, and often no station staff.

I have been on trains where people are quite open about fare evasion. A group of teenagers on a train from Redhill to Tonbridge where one was being questioned on why they bought a ticket !. I was sat in a Wetherspoons one lunchtime and could hear a young lady telling her gran how she always remembered to select a child fare but never needed a railcard or anything like that.

It’s absolutely prolific between non barriered stations on the SE Metro network.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It’s fair to say dispatch isn’t automated anywhere, it’s just a question of whether the platform staff, guard or driver does it.

Guards don’t really make sense on London Overground, but worth remembering that when they were removed more staff were employed on stations due to TfL’s involvement, and all LO stations are guaranteed to be staffed first to last trains. When the same thing happened two decades prior on SE Metro, many of the staff were simply not replaced and there is now no on train staff presence at all, and often no station staff.



It’s absolutely prolific between non barriered stations on the SE Metro network.

It is bad enough at stations with barriers where people just push the barrier open !.

 

[jon0844]

It is bad enough at stations with barriers where people just push the barrier open !.

Maybe a start would be setting the gates to the maximum resistance level as I think they're set to around 50% of the limit - making them easier to push open.

I realise there's a safety issue but wonder if there's a way to use the sensors to detect someone being trapped as the paddles close with someone going through vs being forced open from closed.

 

[43066]

It is bad enough at stations with barriers where people just push the barrier open !.

Absolutely. There’s an element of “social shame” acting as a deterrent, but that’s less of an issue these days as a significant % of the population are completely individualistic and no longer have any regard for how other people view them.

I imagine quite a few people also believe they can be physically restrained by staff; legally staff do have the power to do this, but of course TfL and all TOCs these days instruct them never to use it!

I can only see the problems getting worse, sadly.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Maybe a start would be setting the gates to the maximum resistance level as I think they're set to around 50% of the limit - making them easier to push open.

I realise there's a safety issue but wonder if there's a way to use the sensors to detect someone being trapped as the paddles close with someone going through vs being forced open from closed.

I suppose the argument could be that the paddles are currently strong enough already to mean someone has to deliberately force them thus showing deliberate intent. Any stronger and it might not defeat many more evaders but would be more risk of injury to those less able bodied innocents.

CCTV collecting evidence to build up a portfolio is one thing. Enforcers round the corner to catch others would be a good trawl at some places. I have seen some quite intimidating groups of enforcers at East Croydon dealing with a tantrum or so caused by not getting away with evasion (it seems). I think this is usually people forcing the barrier. It sends a clear message to other risk takers and the honest public that having a valid ticket is easier.

Sadly I think generally the easiest for a single staff member to catch are the ones not out to cheat. It is very easy to get correct name and address from people who have simply forgotten their railcard or let their phone die. Back in the day it would be simply losing ones ticket. That is where enforcement has to be careful. Want to distinguish between premeditated and/or serial fare evasion and just accidental errors by otherwise honest travellers. I expect that is achieved by seeing how many "one off mistakes" a particular person has already made. But that is not a very visible deterrent to the rest.

 

[Gooner18]

I see it regularly now. At least 2-5 people just pushing through the barrier or following close behind someone, all under the watchful eye of TfL / TOC staff at the gates. Annoys the hell out of me. Why should I or others bother paying where there is so little enforcement or either concern from staff. Gate staff seem to be a total pointless job. Replace them with enforcement officers and/or retrain them to be enforcement officers as fare evasion is becoming a joke now

 

[43066]

Replace them with enforcement officers and/or retrain them to be enforcement officers as fare evasion is becoming a joke now.

They are there to deal with queries and let people through the barriers.

Revenue staff are instructed not to detain people, either. Rail enforcement officers can remove people from the network, but also cannot detain AIUI.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I see it regularly now. At least 2-5 people just pushing through the barrier or following close behind someone, all under the watchful eye of TfL / TOC staff at the gates. Annoys the hell out of me. Why should I or others bother paying where there is so little enforcement or either concern from staff. Gate staff seem to be a total pointless job. Replace them with enforcement officers and/or retrain them to be enforcement officers as fare evasion is becoming a joke now

You cannot have normal staff getting involved in heavy policing. It would be a big change to what is required in the job, be a higher wage and many would not be capable of such a particularly physical job - police retire in their 50s iirc. EDIT (15/12/2024)- apparently no longer true but they do move on.

They are there to deal with queries and let people through the barriers.

Revenue staff are instructed not to detain people, either. Rail enforcement officers can remove people from the network, but also cannot detain AIUI.

Agreed. Enforcement has to come on top of existing staff presence.

There is also the legality of detaining someone - not every oneone has those powers or training.

This problem is not unique to the railways. Shoplifting - the security at my local supermarket are not allowed to touch anyone and they are not allowed to pursue a shoplifter once they have made it out side the store (even with two cases of beer in their hands).

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder if we need barriers similar to ones you see in places like Paris, it won't stop fare evasion but it'd be harder if the barrier has less of a gap.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if we need barriers similar to ones you see in places like Paris, it won't stop fare evasion but it'd be harder if the barrier has less of a gap.

When I was last in Paris I saw gates that seemed impenetrable but they still found a way!

 

[bramling]

YouGov poll

YouGov have published a poll into the issue of fare evasion in London. Make of it what you will. I'd be curious to read what TfL staff make of it because it does feel more like an attack on their performance than anything else, as the article writer leads with the headline "Half of London Tube and train travellers say they’ve seen TfL staff fail to challenge fare dodgers". It also appears the writer is under the impression TfL staff SHOULD be "challenging", "tackling" or "confronting" fare evaders as a matter of policy. I understand this is not the case, and CSA's are specifically advised to refrain from getting involved because there have been numerous examples of this leading to assaults.

Any thoughts?

The problem is that London has declined as a city over the last generation or so, such that it’s now quite unsafe for staff to “challenge” fare dodgers. It is sadly the case that targeted operations involving groups of staff, backed up where possible by BTP, is the only way to address this problem.

It is a very depressing state of affairs. Staff have enough trouble dealing with some passengers even before revenue matters are involved.

I would long to see this be something that a mayor might recognise and attempt to address, but certainly the previous mayor was too busy fantasising about making model buses, and the limit of what the current one is good for stops at coming up with names for rail services.

I see it regularly now. At least 2-5 people just pushing through the barrier or following close behind someone, all under the watchful eye of TfL / TOC staff at the gates. Annoys the hell out of me. Why should I or others bother paying where there is so little enforcement or either concern from staff. Gate staff seem to be a total pointless job. Replace them with enforcement officers and/or retrain them to be enforcement officers as fare evasion is becoming a joke now

It isn’t just a case of retraining. How do you train someone to not be stabbed?

 

[yorkie]

The problem is that London has declined as a city over the last generation or so...

It is a common perception among most generations through the ages that crime is getting worse from one generation to the next.

This perception persists when there is no evidence for it being true, or even when the reverse is true.

Greater London Crime and Safety Statistics | CrimeRate

How dangerous is Greater London and how does it compare to other counties in London? If you are searching for crime statistics in London, you must read our report.

crimerate.co.uk

The 10-year trend indicates a decrease of 63 points in London's crime risk score. While potentially a good indicator of the overall risk trend, analysis should include further checks as above.

However you are far from being alone in having this perception; it is an extremely long-standing, worldwide phenomenon.

Kids and Crime: Is the next generation really that bad?

One of the consistent themes in society is older generations believe the newest generation is the worst behaved.

okcfox.com

One of the consistent themes in society is older generations believe the newest generation is the worst behaved.

Some of this bad behavior is believed to include criminal activity.

Every generation has been ‘doomed’ — yet we’re still here

Each generation has remarkable differences and unique characterizations, but the one thing that hasn’t changed is the tendency for those generations to critique each other.

www.deseret.com

In a 2019 study, Protzko and Schooler theorize that no, society has not been on a steady decline with the turn of every generation, and this denigration of the younger generation from their older counterparts is a result of faulty memory and bias projecting.

I do wonder if it's possibly made even worse in the modern era by increased reporting and also social media hysteria.

The far-right are particularly keen to suggest that London in particular with is worse then a generation ago because it suits their anti-immigrant agenda; don't be fooled by their hysterical false claims!

 

[bramling]

It is a common perception among most generations through the ages that crime is getting worse from one generation to the next.

This perception persists when there is no evidence for it being true, or even when the reverse is true.

I kind of agree in principle with your point, however I think anyone who works on rail in London will tell you the same thing, namely that things have got a *lot* worse.

And it isn’t just anecdotal, I have access to data and reports which show the extent of incidents which occur, and there’s a damn sight more happening now than in, say, 2010. Both in terms of staff assaults, the severity of incidents when they do occur, as well as stuff like robberies to passengers.

It’s also the case that there seem to be a lot more problem areas in London now. If we go back to something like the 90s then sure there were some parts of LU which were dodgy - for example the north end of the Bakerloo Line, which culminated in a murder at IIRC Kensal Green. But now you’re just as likely to have someone threatened at knifepoint at Totteridge & Whetstone or staff beaten up at Golders Green, places one wouldn’t really consider as trouble spots.

 

[yorkie]

I kind of agree in principle with your point, however I think anyone who works on rail in London will tell you the same thing, namely that things have got a *lot* worse.

Are there any statistics available to back this up?

And it isn’t just anecdotal, I have access to data and reports which show the extent of incidents which occur, and there’s a damn sight more happening now than in, say, 2010. Both in terms of staff assaults, the severity of incidents when they do occur, as well as stuff like robberies to passengers.

It’s also the case that there seem to be a lot more problem areas in London now. If we go back to something like the 90s then sure there were some parts of LU which were dodgy - for example the north end of the Bakerloo Line, which culminated in a murder at IIRC Kensal Green. But now you’re just as likely to have someone threatened at knifepoint at Totteridge & Whetstone or staff beaten up at Golders Green, places one wouldn’t really consider as trouble spots.

But the counter-argument would be that there are many places which feel a lot safer now than during the 1990s. If you have solid evidence to back up your claim that London is a more dangerous place than the 1990s, I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Gooner18]

They are there to deal with queries and let people through the barriers.

Revenue staff are instructed not to detain people, either. Rail enforcement officers can remove people from the network, but also cannot detain AIUI.

Well in this case it seems all roles ard pointless. There is no deterrent hence why it’s getting worse

You cannot have normal staff getting involved in heavy policing. It would be a big change to what is required in the job, be a higher wage and many would not be capable of such a particularly physical job - police retire in their 50s iirc.

Agreed. Enforcement has to come on top of existing staff presence.

There is also the legality of detaining someone - not every oneone has those powers or training.

This problem is not unique to the railways. Shoplifting - the security at my local supermarket are not allowed to touch anyone and they are not allowed to pursue a shoplifter once they have made it out side the store (even with two cases of beer in their hands).

I can reassure you police do not retire in their 50’s. Those days are long gone. All the benefits have been stripped bare by both Labour and conservatives over the years hence the mass problem in recruitment and people leaving. Oddly enough a lot of police go into the railways for far superior working conditions, pay and pensions

Regarding more Police presence after the incident in which a Met police officer , detained/ arrested someone for failing to provide proof they had tapped in to a ticket inspector which then led to the officer being referred and initially found GUILTY for common assault only for it later to be rightful overturned has led to a debate whether off duty officers will now get involved in fare evasion matters

 

[Peter Sarf]

I certainly feel I see more antisocial behaviour. But perhaps that is the result of more open carriages. Although outside of the railway scene there are more signs. Even just low level there is the smell of drugs, spitting, shouting and ranting.

I think as one gets older one feels more vulnerable perhaps.

I can imagine reporting of crime is more common so skews the statistics.

 

[43066]

And it isn’t just anecdotal, I have access to data and reports which show the extent of incidents which occur, and there’s a damn sight more happening now than in, say, 2010. Both in terms of staff assaults, the severity of incidents when they do occur, as well as stuff like robberies to passengers.

Definitely plenty of evidence to suggest violence against staff has got significantly worse on a national basis in the past few years (you will no doubt have access to TfL’s own figures).

Violent assaults against rail staff on increase since pandemic - BBC News

Rail workers say they are spat at, punched and sworn at as figures suggest abuse has increased.

www.bbc.co.uk

The number of assaults recorded by police in 2023 was nearly 10% higher than pre-pandemic in 2019, despite a 11% reduction in passenger numbers.

Of course the fact that the number of assaults has increased despite fewer passengers being carried really highlights how much behaviour has deteriorated since pre pandemic.

No great surprise Southeastern are the worst affected operator. Interestingly the article notes that their REOs have the power to detain people. I suspect that may relate to the theoretical power they have any the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as I had understood that is never done in practice. Open to correction, however!

Well in this case it seems all roles ard pointless. There is no deterrent hence why it’s getting worse

A lot of people have now wised up to the fact that there’s very little railway staff can do, unless BTP or regular police happen to be present. There’s a very slim chance of that at most locations.

 

[Mojo]

No great surprise Southeastern are the worst affected operator. Interestingly the article notes that their REOs have the power to detain people. I suspect that may relate to the theoretical power they have any the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as I had understood that is never done in practice. Open to correction, however!

Don't know about Southeastern, but TfL's enforcement officers [that is the staff in the blue stab vests employed directly by TfL as opposed to the Revenue staff employed by LUL] do detain and also have the power to physically eject people.

 

[43066]

Don't know about Southeastern, but TfL's enforcement officers [that is the staff in the blue stab vests employed directly by TfL as opposed to the Revenue staff employed by LUL] do detain and also have the power to physically eject people.

That’s interesting. The guys you mention are a rare species, rarely sighted in the wild! Come to think of it I might have seen them on the Elizabeth line a few weeks back, challenging a beggar (who duly left the train). I must admit, I’m not entirely comfortable with the idea of rail staff detaining people, for various reasons.

@REO Nate might have some insight into the SE position re. detention by REOs.

 

[AlterEgo]

I saw someone being physically ejected by SouthEastern's security/revenue guys at Bromley South a couple of weeks ago. Forcefully (and fairly) too. Bloke spat at them.