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A1(M): Freight modal shift potential? (Lazy post)

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biggus

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So, driving down south from Hull today I took the A1 and found myself musing on all the intermodal containers thundering along on lorries.

Before I knock myself out re-reading the freight RUS and googling all night, is anyone aware of good survey data for this container freight flow on the A1?

Given the large amount of these containers "trunking" up and down the A1, this flow seems like a tantalisingly attractive prospect for modal shift to rail.

How much capacity would be required?
Where would you put the modal interchanges? (In addition to Durham Rail Freight Interchange?)

http://www.naylors.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/propPer/pdf/2030_Particulars.pdf

I should think you could fill the ECML entirely with containerised freight if all the ISO boxes were taken off the A1?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Donny Dave

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It all depends which port the containers have arrived at, and where their final destination is ....

Seeing you mention the A1 specifically, I'm assuming the port of entry for the containers is Felixstowe*. These containers could be going to various places in South/West/North Yorkshire where it's quicker to send them by road. If they're going further afield, such as Newcastle/Sunderland/Scotland, etc then yes, it would be easier to send them by rail and distribute them from the recieving terminal.

* They could also to going to/from Immingham as well which does handle containers as well.
 

plannerman

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Modal shift is of limited appeal in the UK - the country's simply too small. Many boxes are already railed from the ports to inland terminals - in this case the relevant terminal is Stourton, Leeds. In many cases the costs and delays of double-handling the boxes simply makes rail uneconomic.
 

HSTEd

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The containers come into the country on Lorries, which means it is cheaper to simply ship them to the destination on lorries than to tranship them twice to get a rail leg in the middle.

If they came in on the train you might have a chance but they don't.
 

plannerman

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The containers come into the country on Lorries, which means it is cheaper to simply ship them to the destination on lorries than to tranship them twice to get a rail leg in the middle.

If they came in on the train you might have a chance but they don't.

They come in on ships - containers coming in by road are very unusual. The main problem is the length of time it takes to get a container from the port to the railhead, then wait for a train, rail it potentially only halfway to it's destination, wait again while it's lifted off the train and then taken by truck for the last leg. Most boxes may as well do the whole journey by road.

Remember time is money - once the box is in the country, generally the importer wants it delivered and empty as quickly as possible. The biggest driver to railfreight is port congestion - the queues at Southampton, for example, can be so bad that hauliers will prefer to collect the box from an inland rail terminal. And rather than road hauliers being the enemy, they are a major railfreight customer - a lot of the space on container trains, rather than being sold direct by Freightliner or whoever to the shipping lines, will be bought and used by road hauliers.
 

eps200

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The plans for the new terminal at Liverpool has provision for quayside tracks, off the ship onto the train in one move.
There are also plans to have a barge go up the ship canal dropping off at various places some of them rail connected.

The end goal is to capture much of the trade from Southampton it's a bit mental to unload down there to ship it up here.

Link
http://www.peelports.co.uk/assets/masterplan/Plans.pdf
 

LE Greys

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There's also the question of squeezing in all the paths, with the double-track section from Northallerton to Darlington being a bit of a problem. South of Doncaster, it's possible to send them via Lincoln (provided they sort out the Peterborough bottleneck) while between Doncaster and York, there is the old Church Fenton route, and York-Northallerton is four-track. The coast route through Sunderland is now pretty much rammed with Metros, and there is still massive reluctance to rebuild the Leamside (which doesn't avoid the Darlo bottleneck anyway). The first rule of the ECML is 'there's always a bottleneck somewhere'. Not sure what the situation is like at night, though.
 

HSTEd

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Night time freight runs can't hope to compete with lorries that move at 60mph and travel at any time of day.

Speed of delivery is king in this world of just-in-time ordering.

I am afraid it looks like we need electric freight multiple units that handle like passenger multiple units (albeit 75mph max speed ones).
 

the sniper

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Speed of delivery is king in this world of just-in-time ordering.

I am afraid it looks like we need electric freight multiple units that handle like passenger multiple units (albeit 75mph max speed ones).

Yes, because that would massively improve times how? Unless the main reason the likes of Freightliner lose out to the roads is because of the time it takes them to run around their trains (it isn't...), why are freight multiple units required?

Given that no where in the world is switching on mass to Freight EMUs, why would FOCs here do it, beyond wishing to ensure that most enthusiast have something to cry about and the RailUK fantasists can finally feel fulfilled?! :lol:
 

RichmondCommu

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Night time freight runs can't hope to compete with lorries that move at 60mph and travel at any time of day.

Speed of delivery is king in this world of just-in-time ordering.

I am afraid it looks like we need electric freight multiple units that handle like passenger multiple units (albeit 75mph max speed ones).

But you surely accept that the vast majority, if not all containers enter this country directly loaded on to a ship? And given the lack of passenger trains at night time surely this is a good time to be moving freight by rail? What the state needs to ensure is that every major conurbation has a rail served freight terminal for these containers.
 

HSTEd

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Yes, because that would massively improve times how? Unless the main reason the likes of Freightliner lose out to the roads is because of the time it takes them to run around their trains (it isn't...), why are freight multiple units required?

Journey times (once the train is moving) alone are largely irrelevant, the problem is that large scale freight operations are a nightmare to fit into the existing timetable simply because freight trains take too long to accelerate to speed.

A freight multiple unit would allow the trains to run far more easily within passenger timetables.
75mph might be a little slow as well judging by the generally light nature of container traffic, 90mph would enable even better pathing within passenger train networks.

Given that no where in the world is switching on mass to Freight EMUs, why would FOCs here do it, beyond wishing to ensure that most enthusiast have something to cry about and the RailUK fantasists can finally feel fulfilled?! :lol:

Nowhere else in the world has any need of them, nowhere else in the world attempts to run significant freight operations within a network as densely populated within passenger services as ours.

But you surely accept that the vast majority, if not all containers enter this country directly loaded on to a ship?

Total container entry/exit movements at UK container ports amount to roughly 8.9m TEU per year.
That means that is roughly 4.45m TEU entry per year assuming the traffic is balanced (it isn't but it is close since we aren't swimming in millions of containers, only thousands).

Last year roughly 1.8 million trailers entered Britain from the continent, both as part of tractor trailer units on ferries or as unaccompanied trailers (primarily into hull in the latter case).

Since the averaeg trailer length approximates 40ft, or 2TEU, that means that Container traffic is only really equal to lorry traffic in terms of volume of cargo.

And given the lack of passenger trains at night time surely this is a good time to be moving freight by rail?

Nope, because the container will quite likely be unloaded during the day, if it has to wait for the late evening/early morning to use rail transport it won't.... since it will have already arrived at its destination if it goes by road.

What the state needs to ensure is that every major conurbation has a rail served freight terminal for these containers.

That will require paths going in all directions since shunting or transhipment moves take so long.

That is going to be rather hard to fit into conurbations that have overloaded suburban networks, especially using conventional loco hauled freight formations.
 

Sidious

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there is still massive reluctance to rebuild the Leamside (which doesn't avoid the Darlo bottleneck anyway). .
It does if you take freight off at Northallerton, via Yarm to Norton Junction and then via the Stillington Line onto Leamside at Tursdale Junction.

A different problem there would be the signalling headways between Northallerton and Eaglescliffe which are generally 2 aspect with very long sections.
 

GB

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Journey times (once the train is moving) alone are largely irrelevant, the problem is that large scale freight operations are a nightmare to fit into the existing timetable simply because freight trains take too long to accelerate to speed.

A freight multiple unit would allow the trains to run far more easily within passenger timetables.
75mph might be a little slow as well judging by the generally light nature of container traffic, 90mph would enable even better pathing within passenger train networks.

How many of these FMUs would you require to fulfill the same capacity of one standard freight train? How many extra paths would that require?

Not sure what you mean by "generally light nature of container traffic"? 50 odd containers on a train weighing in at anywhere between 1500 and 2100 tonnes doesn't sound that light!

Delivery speed is one factor. Cost, reliability and efficiency are also high on the list.

Truth of the matter is there are not many occasions where a container coming off a ship has to be say somewhere in the midlands in the next 6 to 10 hours (unless the ship is late). Most containers are pre booked, with space allocated on specific trains and specific times according to customer requirements.

I had a couple of containers come of a ship Thursday morning at 0930 and they were loaded onto the 1045 departure.
 

Bald Rick

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I use the A1 fairly regularly from Yorkshire - Herts, and am usually struck by how few lorries (container or othrwise) there are. Compared to, say, the M1 / M6.
 

HSTEd

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How many of these FMUs would you require to fulfill the same capacity of one standard freight train?

As many or as few as you want.
They could be built to 400m or even 800m long if you want.
And that is before you couple them into multiple as required, your only limit is the overhead power supply.

How many extra paths would that require?

As many as are convenient.
You can run the same number of paths as now and simply take advantage of the fact that those paths are easier to acquire, or you can size up the benefits of making each path easier to acquire by obtaining more paths without causing inconvenience to passenger timetables.

Not sure what you mean by "generally light nature of container traffic"? 50 odd containers on a train weighing in at anywhere between 1500 and 2100 tonnes doesn't sound that light!

It is light when you consider the number of axles the train has.
The axle loading of the train is more important than its overall weight in determining how fast it can reasonable run.

You can run a container train faster more practically than a similar weight coal train for instance.

Delivery speed is one factor. Cost, reliability and efficiency are also high on the list.

We can't hope to get the cost low enough over the short distances we are talking about in the UK, road haulage is just too cheap.

Reliability is hard to beat since our road haulage system has not yet completely collapsed.
And as for efficiency..... how are you proposing to account for all the extra inventory that has to be held by whoever the end user to cover the fact that the time it takes for new material to arrive after he orders it is several hours longer.

Truth of the matter is there are not many occasions where a container coming off a ship has to be say somewhere in the midlands in the next 6 to 10 hours (unless the ship is late). Most containers are pre booked, with space allocated on specific trains and specific times according to customer requirements.

The whole Midlands-hub container market is going to take a pounding from the deployment of new distribution hubs connected with the development of Thamesport.

There will be a drastic reduction of containers being shipped to the Midlands and then back again thanks to those new hubs.


I had a couple of containers come of a ship Thursday morning at 0930 and they were loaded onto the 1045 departure.

What happened to containers unloaded at 1046?
When was the next train?

Unloading containers is a continuous process.
 

Bald Rick

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The whole Midlands-hub container market is going to take a pounding from the deployment of new distribution hubs connected with the development of Thamesport.

There will be a drastic reduction of containers being shipped to the Midlands and then back again thanks to those new hubs.

I wouldn't say drastic. The new hub (singular) is at London Gateway (Thamesport is somewhere else), and is in pole position to make secondary distribution easier to Essex, Herts, Kent, and most of London. Which to be fair is a sizeable chunk.

However Felixstowe and the Midlands hubs are still best located for anything going north of a line drawn broadly from Colchester to Aylesbury.

And the container boats won't be stopping at both London Gateway and Felixstowe. Particularly as to get to London Gateway, they have to enter the dredged channel just off the Naze, which is within sight of the cranes at Felixstowe.

So logistics will change around, no doubt, but I would guess the reduction of traffic to the midlands hubs from Felixstowe will be approximately a couple of years growth.

What is likely, is that the number of trains coming out of London Gateway will be relatively low, at least for the first few years.
 

GB

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As many or as few as you want.
They could be built to 400m or even 800m long if you want.
And that is before you couple them into multiple as required, your only limit is the overhead power supply.

That is quite a limit. A lot of the OLE only just about copes with what we have now. An electric unit cable of hauling and accelerating freight trains to a similar degree as passengers would have no chance.



It is light when you consider the number of axles the train has.
The axle loading of the train is more important than its overall weight in determining how fast it can reasonable run.

You can run a container train faster more practically than a similar weight coal train for instance.

If the RA of the train is 7 and the RA of the route is 8 then RA plays no part in the trains maximum speed. It will travel at a speed that does not exceed the speed limit of its slowest wagon, the available brake force or the line speed...which ever is the slowest. Trailing weight factors into timing and pathing. If the trailing weight is significant enough that it cannot keep to a certain class timings, it will run as the next available class.

We can't hope to get the cost low enough over the short distances we are talking about in the UK, road haulage is just too cheap.

Reliability is hard to beat since our road haulage system has not yet completely collapsed.
And as for efficiency..... how are you proposing to account for all the extra inventory that has to be held by whoever the end user to cover the fact that the time it takes for new material to arrive after he orders it is several hours longer.

Short distances are always going to be more viable by road. However you appear to be saying that road is better in general as you believe it gets to the destination quicker and that is all that the importer wants.

What happened to containers unloaded at 1046?
When was the next train?
Unloading containers is a continuous process.

There were no more containers for that particular service as it was fully loaded. The next train for that destination was 6 hours later.

Nope, because the container will quite likely be unloaded during the day, if it has to wait for the late evening/early morning to use rail transport it won't.... since it will have already arrived at its destination if it goes by road.

Ships are unloaded day and night and as I said earlier, containers are pre booked onto certain trains at certain times for certain destinations. Containers are certainly not "roaded" as a normal thing. If they are booked to be railed then they will only get roaded if they miss the booked train and/or they are time critical. They usually get rolled to the next train that may be later in the afternoon, evening or next morning.

The point you seem to be missing is that allthough shops and its customers may want items ASAP. Distributors/importers want the containers at the pre arranged location at the pre arranged time. That is why we don't automatically add afternoon containers to a morning train even when there is space unless requested by the customer.

......
 

LE Greys

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As an alternative to the FMU idea (which might be more suitable for lighter duties anyway) new electric locomotives would be a possibility, especially if they have a 'last mile' diesel engine. The weight penalty has less of an effect with a heavy, slow goods train than with a light, fast passenger train.

It does if you take freight off at Northallerton, via Yarm to Norton Junction and then via the Stillington Line onto Leamside at Tursdale Junction.

A different problem there would be the signalling headways between Northallerton and Eaglescliffe which are generally 2 aspect with very long sections.

That's a good idea, and would be very helpful.
 

HSTEd

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That is quite a limit. A lot of the OLE only just about copes with what we have now. An electric unit cable of hauling and accelerating freight trains to a similar degree as passengers would have no chance.

The primary problem with the sort of relatively low range accelerations is tractive effort rather than actual power to weight ratio.
But even so, a Class 315 has a power to weight ratio of roughly 6.9hp/t which means a ~2350t unit would only draw as much power as a Class 373 (which has run over significant portions of the entire network).

With the enormous programme of power supply upgrades we have in the pipeline getting more power should not really be that much of a problem.

If the RA of the train is 7 and the RA of the route is 8 then RA plays no part in the trains maximum speed. It will travel at a speed that does not exceed the speed limit of its slowest wagon, the available brake force or the line speed...which ever is the slowest. Trailing weight factors into timing and pathing. If the trailing weight is significant enough that it cannot keep to a certain class timings, it will run as the next available class.

RA does however play a role in determining what sort of differential speeds are permitted for the train.
The low axle loadings of such a train combined with the rather spritely braking performance of a train that will immediately apply all its brakes at once (instead of taking a couple of seconds as with conventional air brakes) could easily allow it to get some kind of differential speed.
The train can also develop almost its entire service brakeforce using regenerative brakes rather than a tiny fraction as in a conventional loco hauled formation.

Short distances are always going to be more viable by road. However you appear to be saying that road is better in general as you believe it gets to the destination quicker and that is all that the importer wants.

This is the UK, all distances are short distances by the standards of the markets in which rail is a serious competitor (see the US, and that is primarily because of the Jones Act destroying water based shipping over much of the country).
Rail can't hope to beat road in most cases by cost, so you need something to set it aside.

I will also note that the current model of railfreight is unsustainable simply because its turned into a giant subsidy junkie.
Perhaps it would be better if container freights were axed and we just got them out of the way of the passenger services which might actually have a chance of breaking even (intermodal freight is now more heavily subsidised than most passenger operations are)
 

Bald Rick

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With the enormous programme of power supply upgrades we have in the pipeline getting more power should not really be that much of a problem.

An assumption also made by some of the finest minds in the rail industry. Unfortunately they were also wrong. Sorry!
 

Legzr1

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A different problem there would be the signalling headways between Northallerton and Eaglescliffe which are generally 2 aspect with very long sections.

Sections which are nothing but miniscule compared to the Stillington branch! (a section which runs from Norton West to Ferryhill and takes approx 16-20 mins with a class 6 freight).

But that's not the real problem.

The things that stop the idea dead are the bridges.

Until they're all widened,heightened or replaced 'supercubes' will simply get stuck!
 

biggus

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Rail can't hope to beat road in most cases by cost, so you need something to set it aside.

You seem well informed and several contributors to this thread have made essentially the same comment.

However, I would like to see a serious analysis of why intermodal freight over short distances cannot compete with road.

Objection 1: Freight trains are inherently too slow or infrequent to forward containers efficiently on short runs.

Response 1: This is not even slightly persuasive where potentially busy routes are concerned, as it is a chicken and egg problem. Speed and frequency of intermodal freight trains can be addressed with investments and subsidies to de-risk those investments to a degree (just like the investments that are made in roads and lorries).

Objection 2 : The time taken to shift boxes between vehicles makes total journey time too slow.

Response 2: See Response 1 - it depends on your equipment and facilities. See also the comments by others in this thread that a few extra hours is not necessarily critical in freight handling. Obviously there is an economic cost to financing stock that is in transit, but this cost is finite. This is why freight being held for consolidation before onward shipping is a fact of life.

Objection 3: Handling ISO boxes to transfer them from one vehicle to another is prohibitively expensive in labour terms.

Response 3: Assuming one end of the journey involves transfer to/from a ship, there is one extra transfer between train and lorry at the distribution hub. In my book equal access to major container ports for either road or rail could and should be assumed (yes, it might mean an investment).

It would take 40 man hours to move 20 wagonloads of containers by lorry on a 2 hour run. If the same distance was covered, it would take 2 man hours to move 20 wagonloads by train. Unless loading between truck and train takes almost 2 man hours per container, or the administrative overheads are ludicrous for the train, you do save man hours by transhipping to the train.

A complicating factor here is waiting time. Would the lorry and driver have to wait for more or less time to be loaded at the freight hub compared to the wait at the dockside? You also have to cover the waiting time for the train and driver at the point of unloading or interchange between truck and train - which would depend on the facilities of course, so this is also a matter of investment.

The driver to operate a container crane could be recruited from the 19 lorry drivers who have been replaced by the train driver.

Rail wagons capable of automated unloading with side lift cranes are not inconceivable, and could empty an entire train in minutes though loading might be less automated, I imagine. See http://news.nauticexpo.com/press/boxloader/new-boxloader-iceland-30677-204889.html

Could freight interchanges generate additional sources of income to support the costs of providing security and site supervision? For example, could they sell road fuel, food and other services to truck drivers?

Objection 4: Handling ISO boxes to transfer them from one vehicle to another is prohibitively expensive in capital terms.

Response 4: But is it really, and if so why should this be so?

I have often seen the average total cost of transhipment as GBP 30 per box. Where does this figure come from and what does it include? Is this actually the cost per box of loading between trains and lorries on a wagonload basis, or is it a number that has been inferred from the cost of loading and unloading ships (which is a distinctly different process if you think about the steps involved and the equipment required).

Costs of land and hard standing: Trans shipping facilities require space with hard-standing obviously, but a container moving along a motorway at 60 mph requires an area of hard standing (known as a road) four to eight times its own length to accommodate it for the duration of its journey by road (if driven safely and depending on the length of the box). A container on a rail wagon requires rather less space in transit, lets say double the length of the container to be conservative (empty running is going to be an issue regardless of the mode being considered).

A container stacked in a goods yard requires no more than its own length assuming stacking just two-high is an option, for the duration of its wait. So, providing hard standing for containers in freight yards (if not transferred straight from train to lorry) appears to be, much cheaper than providing space on the road for those containers for the duration of an extended trunk run.

Costs of loading equipment: Cranes cost money, rail sidings and their associated signalling and points cost money to build, tis true. Is this where the real capital cost is? Just what is that cost?

Less busy interchanges really don't need the biggest, fanciest cranes, when quite small forklift-type vehicles on rubber wheels are perfectly capable of moving 40' containers.

Cost of vehicles I don't know the cost of a freight train vs the cost of road wagons. How does it compare? The amount of waiting time for vehicles in general ties up a hell of a lot of capital, and may well represent more value than the goods they are carrying, so speed of interchange and loading is vitally important as is the issue of transit time and queuing.

Objection: "if its so efficient, why hasn't it already happened?"...

Response: Maybe it really doesn't stack up in real terms... or maybe it is because the risk of investing in a lorry is really low and very granular compared with the big risk of investing in a train, let alone a railway line and a network of freight interchanges, so if government doesn't do it who will...? Lorries are a cheap and dirty solution whereas the barriers to entry for rail freight are so high because the initial investment required is so big.

A great many home owners are sitting on enough capital to become HGV owner operators overnight.. Now how many people do you know who can afford a freight train, or who could afford the training to drive it? And where would they run it, and how would they find the customers to fill it and how would they get it unloaded?

Railfreight requires major planning and investment whereas road freight can always muddle through even it is less efficient.

So we could give up and accept the suboptimal solution that the road haulage provides, or we could plan and invest our way towards something better, even if that does sound like communism to some ;)
 

Bald Rick

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You miss the main point - that short haul container traffic is usually to end destination. And very rarely does a trainload of containers need to go to one end destination.
 

biggus

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You miss the main point - that short haul container traffic is usually to end destination. And very rarely does a trainload of containers need to go to one end destination.

I don't think you have read my post. Nowhere have I implied that we should try to get boxes to their final destination by rail unless that destination is the dockside.

We are talking about a few to many or many to few relationship. i.e. distribution from a few ports to/from many inland customers. Hence a lot of trunking to/from the ports before the flows fan out.

I am not talking, at least here, about modal shift within the many to many distribution web of the domestic freight network.

However, even that is not as implausible as it sounds. Royal Mail is the ultimate many to many network and used rail for long distance distribution until 2004. Now it uses convoys of big red 18 wheelers on the motorway instead. Stupid? Yes. Rational? Within the bounds of a poorly planned, economically distorted, poorly integrated national transport system, certainly. This is a paradoxical world we live in.

Royal Mail's RailNet project failed but was it necessarily ill conceived? I am sure there is an interesting story there. (Privatisation of parcels means we probably won't see its like again in any case).

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/POST+...T+WARNS+RAIL+INDUSTRY+MUST+GIVE...-a063590822
 
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Beveridges

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As an alternative to the FMU idea (which might be more suitable for lighter duties anyway) new electric locomotives would be a possibility, especially if they have a 'last mile' diesel engine. The weight penalty has less of an effect with a heavy, slow goods train than with a light, fast passenger train.
An electric loco with similar power and tractive effort as a 92 but with an onboard "last mile" diesel engine is exactly whats needed
 

RichmondCommu

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Total container entry/exit movements at UK container ports amount to roughly 8.9m TEU per year.
That means that is roughly 4.45m TEU entry per year assuming the traffic is balanced (it isn't but it is close since we aren't swimming in millions of containers, only thousands).

Last year roughly 1.8 million trailers entered Britain from the continent, both as part of tractor trailer units on ferries or as unaccompanied trailers (primarily into hull in the latter case).

Since the averaeg trailer length approximates 40ft, or 2TEU, that means that Container traffic is only really equal to lorry traffic in terms of volume of cargo.

But none of the above supports your statement that containers enter this country on trailers.

Nope, because the container will quite likely be unloaded during the day, if it has to wait for the late evening/early morning to use rail transport it won't.... since it will have already arrived at its destination if it goes by road.

Ports in this country are a 24 hour operation, as are freight terminals.

That will require paths going in all directions since shunting or transhipment moves take so long.

That is going to be rather hard to fit into conurbations that have overloaded suburban networks, especially using conventional loco hauled freight formations.

Well all shunting will be done away from the mainline so I don't see why that should be a problem. And as others have said containers can be moved very quickly from ship to train.

In terms of the connurbations that currently lack container or indeed simple freight terminals, the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and the area around Bristol do not have overloaded surburban networks.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I may have said this before , (for which apologies) - in my Freightliner days we used to work on a haul of about 200 miles as being the optimum to make money (taking into account terminal handling + port lifting charges , and this was in BR times when you did not pay track access charges for specials etc)

In quiet times , we used to go for short haul just to make some cash and pay towards the fixed costs - so hauls from say Harwich to Willesden for a block load of say 30x20 boxes for local wine importers made sense. The shorter hauls such as Southampton to Barkng for OCL /ACT were contract trains so the shipper took the risk. (and always filled the trains full)

Very complex - and the road haulage industry will always be a massive competitor - though congestion ,fuel costs , road driver "shortage" have spun things a bit towards rail in recent years.
 
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