Abellio wins West Midlands franchise

[northwichcat]

You tell us, it's your idea...

I think you'll find it was actually Network Rail's idea which was included in a RUS a few years ago. They had looked at LM's proposals to divert a Birmingham to Liverpool service to Preston and to extend the Euston to Crewe service to Liverpool and came up with a revised alternative which involved changing XC and Northern services as well.

The full plan was:
- Alternate XC services between Manchester and Birmingham to run via Crewe instead of Stoke.
- Euston to Crewe extended to Liverpool but routed away from Stone.
- Alternate Birmingham to Liverpool services diverted to Preston.
- Manchester to Stoke stopper to transfer to LM and to extend to Birmingham via Stone.
- Manchester to Crewe via Manchester Airport service extended to Stoke. (Later changed to EMT Derby to Crewe service extended.)

Of course Virgin objected to those proposals :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

If they didn't route the London - Trent Valley - Crewe service via Stoke then there'd have been no point in electrifying Stoke - Crewe (doing it just for diversionary purposes wouldn't have cut the mustard, and the hourly 153/156 between Stoke and Crewe would have been the only passenger service).

Before Stone got it's service reinstated different options were looked at - one proposal was for it to be served by diverted Liverpool to Birmingham services.

Under Central Trains the Stoke-Crewe diesel services weren't restricted to 153s and 156s - 150s and 170s both made regular appearances.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think you'll find it was actually Network Rail's idea which was included in a RUS a few years ago. They had looked at LM's proposals to divert a Birmingham to Liverpool service to Preston and to extend the Euston to Crewe service to Liverpool and came up with a revised alternative which involved changing XC and Northern services as well.

The full plan was:
- Alternate XC services between Manchester and Birmingham to run via Crewe instead of Stoke.
- Euston to Crewe extended to Liverpool but routed away from Stone.
- Alternate Birmingham to Liverpool services extended to Preston.
- Manchester to Stoke stopper to transfer to LM and to extend to Birmingham via Stone.
- Manchester to Crewe via Manchester Airport service extended to Stoke. (Later changed to EMT Derby to Crewe service extended.)

Of course Virgin objected to those proposals :roll:

One area where the privatised network really frustrates me. That was an attempt by Network Rail to have a holistic view of services in an area and try and appease everyone. Alas, no because the big daddy didn't like it.

 

[Camden]

I was interested when I heard this a while back, so I did a bit of searching. I found LM's request to extend the Euston up to Liverpool, however the rest came up blank. There was no application to switch a Liverpool train to Preston though, and a lobbying paper from Birmingham suggested they were actually looking forward to having three trains an hour with one train going via Walsall and Northampton.

Don't know why LM's ask was turned down, but complaints about fare abstraction seems likely. I could also be a bit cynical and wonder if a lot of people choosing a slow but cheaper 3 hour service to and from London might go against the evidence for HS2.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think you'll find it was actually Network Rail's idea which was included in a RUS a few years ago.

Good to see NR can use common sense & logic

 

[northwichcat]

I was interested when I heard this a while back, so I did a bit of searching. I found LM's request to extend the Euston up to Liverpool, however the rest came up blank. There was no application to switch a Liverpool train to Preston though, and a lobbying paper from Birmingham suggested they were actually looking forward to having three trains an hour with one train going via Walsall and Northampton.

Don't know why LM's ask was turned down, but complaints about fare abstraction seems likely. I could also be a bit cynical and wonder if a lot of people choosing a slow but cheaper 3 hour service to and from London might go against the evidence for HS2.

I think the Preston request went to Network Rail rather than ORR and their response was "wait until the next recast." While the next recast kept being put back due to the mess DfT made of the West Coast franchise award. LM probably listened to that advise, unlike Alliance Rail who kept coming up with a new proposal every time one they submitted didn't get accepted.

There was definitely concern at the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce at losing a direct Birmingham train, even though they welcomed the idea of better connections to other places in the Midlands.

 

[Camden]

I think the Preston request went to Network Rail rather than ORR and their response was "wait until the next recast." While the next recast kept being put back due to the mess DfT made of the West Coast franchise award. LM probably listened to that advise, unlike Alliance Rail who kept coming up with a new proposal every time one they submitted didn't get accepted.

There was definitely concern at the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce at losing a direct Birmingham train, even though they welcomed the idea of better connections to other places in the Midlands.

The last bit I can well imagine, but I think you've got your wires crossed on the rest of it somewhere.

From the RUS:

Option RL2 contained two considered possibilities relating to Preston, both of which were rejected as being non-viable:

Option JT3.1 considered, as a sensitivity, extending the diverted interurban service between London Euston and Crewe to Preston, calling at Winsford,Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western instead of to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn. This is expected to provide a low value for money business case due to the high operating costs associated with this option. This option is therefore not recommended.

The alternative of diverting one of the two existing Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street trains per hour to Preston if the London Euston to Crewe interurban service is extended to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn was considered in option RL2.1. This option had a low value for money business case as the disbenefits to passengers travelling between Birmingham New Street and Liverpool Lime Street outweighed the benefits to passengers travelling between Birmingham New Street and Preston and is therefore not recommended.

Extension of the London Midland Crewe - Euston up to Liverpool was mooted in JT4.2 North West Package, but couldn't go ahead until the Stoke issue had been resolved. As that has now been resolved, I expect that the extension will take place at some point in the future assuming that any objections can be overcome.

Therefore, the extension of the London Euston to Crewe service to Liverpool Lime Street cannot be recommended as no value for money way has been identified to replace the connectivity at Stone station and the rest of the Stoke-on-Trent corridor. It is recommended that the Industry Timetable Working Group considers how the connectivity could be replaced on this corridor which would then enable the London Euston to Crewe service to be diverted and extended.

Source Network Rail WCML RUS July 2011.

 

[northwichcat]

Extension of the London Midland Crewe - Euston up to Liverpool was mooted in JT4.2 North West Package, but couldn't go ahead until the Stoke issue had been resolved. As that has now been resolved, I expect that the extension will take place at some point in the future assuming that any objections can be overcome.

Would you be able to fit an extra service in?

There's a lot of services using what is only a double track section of the WCML: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XYJ/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Camden]

Dunno. HS2 don't seem to think it's any kind of issue anyway, such is the shruggage, so maybe Network West London Midland or whatever they're called now can wave that fact in Network Rail/ORR's face if they try and grumble about it!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dunno. HS2 don't seem to think it's any kind of issue anyway, such is the shruggage, so maybe Network West London Midland or whatever they're called now can wave that fact in Network Rail/ORR's face if they try and grumble about it!!

The Norton Bridge upgrade has come and gone since all that RUS stuff, but we are still waiting for the new capacity to be utilised (more trains on all routes).
RUSs seem to be pretty much discredited these days, like a lot of NR's planning and costings.

 

[Camden]

Nothing done on or to or for the section mentioned, however.

 

[northwichcat]

The last bit I can well imagine, but I think you've got your wires crossed on the rest of it somewhere.

I think the West Coast RUS you've quoted from mustn't have been the first time Network Rail examined a LM recast as it mentions the Derby to Crewe service being extended to Manchester Airport, when that wasn't one of the original proposals and replaced the idea of a Piccadilly to Crewe via Airport stopper being extended to Stoke. The idea of a slow Birmingham to Preston service has been around since Central days and they started running a single daily service, in the same way they ran a single daily service from Liverpool to London (which was a joint service with Silverlink.)

 

[sd0733]

Pretty sure in the ITT for the new franchise there was mention of only two paths per hour available to the franchise from Crewe to Weaver junction so any extensions towards Liverpool and Preston are fairly unlikely anytime soon.
If it was possible and an extra path was granted I think the best would be:

1Tph Euston-Liverpool (Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Runcorn, South Parkway, Liverpool)

1tph Birmingham-Liverpool via Runcorn (Wolverhampton, Penkridge, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, South Parkway, Lime Street)

1 tph Birmingham-Liverpool via Earlestown (Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Wavertree Tech Park, Lime Street)

If paths could be found that opens up a few journey opportunities as well asgiving route knowledge for diversions with engineering work/disruption

 

[northwichcat]

Pretty sure in the ITT for the new franchise there was mention of only two paths per hour available to the franchise from Crewe to Weaver junction so any extensions towards Liverpool and Preston are fairly unlikely anytime soon.
If it was possible and an extra path was granted I think the best would be:

1Tph Euston-Liverpool (Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Runcorn, South Parkway, Liverpool)

1tph Birmingham-Liverpool via Runcorn (Wolverhampton, Penkridge, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, South Parkway, Lime Street)

1 tph Birmingham-Liverpool via Earlestown (Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Wavertree Tech Park, Lime Street)

If paths could be found that opens up a few journey opportunities as well asgiving route knowledge for diversions with engineering work/disruption

There was certainly no mention of serving Preston, even as a possible option, in the LM ITT. If there was a Preston service and it didn't make calls at stations between Warrington and Crewe then there wouldn't be much point to it, while options for linking central Cheshire to Warrington and Crewe could be operated by Northern e.g. extending the Lime Street to Bank Quay stopper or providing a service on the Middlewich branch.

 

[boeing737229]

Lots of Pacers coming free from Northern in the coming years. A few cheap improvements should make them suitable.

It'd be pretty cool if Northern or ATW were to loan a 142 to LM, only for a few days & run it on the Cross City Line, the Snow Hill Lines or, is it Nuneaton etc that the 153s do?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Pretty sure in the ITT for the new franchise there was mention of only two paths per hour available to the franchise from Crewe to Weaver junction so any extensions towards Liverpool and Preston are fairly unlikely anytime soon.

It that's the case, they are going to have to pull their socks up for HS2, or remove some existing trains in favour of HS2 services.

There are normally 5tph north of Crewe (3xLiverpool, 2xPreston/Scotland), which doesn't seem excessive for a partially 4-track main line.
Freight is less than it was (no coal trains), and is skewed to night-time.
Standing on Warrington BQ station you don't get the impression of a line that is "full" by any means.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps signalling work is needed? I agree though that it's quiet compared to the south WCML.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It that's the case, they are going to have to pull their socks up for HS2, or remove some existing trains in favour of HS2 services.

There are normally 5tph north of Crewe (3xLiverpool, 2xPreston/Scotland), which doesn't seem excessive for a partially 4-track main line.
Freight is less than it was (no coal trains), and is skewed to night-time.
Standing on Warrington BQ station you don't get the impression of a line that is "full" by any means.

Agreed. I suspect that there may be a lot of "protected" freight paths. One of the arguments prior to WCRM was the issue of how much room there would be for freight on a faster WCML. The freight market has declined since then but much of what remains is relatively fast inter-modal traffic. I would hope that the issue of both current and future freight pathing has been properly reviewed as a preliminary step in the much anticipated timetable recast.

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps signalling work is needed? I agree though that it's quiet compared to the south WCML.

Its a 4 minute headway north of Crewe. Its just the nature of the beast that you will rarely get a freight at Winsford or Hartford without it either being at a stand (Hartford) or potentially at a crawl or a stand at Winsford. Weaver to Winsford needs 4 tracking or you will eventually end up with a lop sided timetable where passenger services are flighted as are freight. It is going to be worse north of Preston too in the future.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Adding extra tracks to the WCML north of Crewe will have a better business case with HS2, since a good number of those extra paths would be available all of the way to Euston (via the old or new lines).

 

[Heartland]

Whilst the new West Midlands franchise has promised new trains, there is the issue of where they will run. Will the network be the same as London Midland, or will services be lost. When the local West Midland Rail Group was set up their published map identified West Midlands tracks and West Coast tracks.

Liverpool is seeing many changes, with new platforms under construction at Lime Street and a new service being planned to Chester via Runcorn. On the published WMR map the route from Crewe to Lime Street appears not to be a long term route for the New WMR franchise.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Whilst the new West Midlands franchise has promised new trains, there is the issue of where they will run. Will the network be the same as London Midland, or will services be lost. When the local West Midland Rail Group was set up their published map identified West Midlands tracks and West Coast tracks.

Liverpool is seeing many changes, with new platforms under construction at Lime Street and a new service being planned to Chester via Runcorn. On the published WMR map the route from Crewe to Lime Street appears not to be a long term route for the New WMR franchise.

The Stakeholder Briefing issued last year detailed most of the service requirements for the WM franchise:
WMBU 1 tph BNS-Wolves extended to Crewe via Stoke
New Sunday service BNS to Shrewsbury
Coventry-Leamington shuttle
XCity extended to Bromsgrove December 2018
WCBU Trent Valley service diverted to run direct Stafford to Crewe

Otherwise it is all frequency enhancements (evenings and Sundays, off-peak to Shrewsbury and Rugeley TV, and Coventry-Nuneaton when the Coventry bay built).

I think you are looking at the WMBU map and not finding BNS-Liverpool. This is WCBU service.

 

[boeing737229]

What's gonna happen to the 323s? From what I gather, Northern don't seem intent on keeping them & neither do London Midland! Have I missed something?
Are the new EMUs being ordered by the new franchise supposed to be just complementing the 323s or replacing them completely?

 

[northwichcat]

What's gonna happen to the 323s? From what I gather, Northern don't seem intent on keeping them & neither do London Midland! Have I missed something?
Are the new EMUs being ordered by the new franchise supposed to be just complementing the 323s or replacing them completely?

Porterbrook blocked the Northern franchise bidders from retaining the 323s long term in the hope they would take on more 319s and that the next LM franchise would want 323s. The plans backfired as 319s aren't suitable for all Northern electrified routes and it seems Abellio don't want the 323s for the West Midlands franchise.

 

[47802]

What's gonna happen to the 323s? From what I gather, Northern don't seem intent on keeping them & neither do London Midland! Have I missed something?
Are the new EMUs being ordered by the new franchise supposed to be just complementing the 323s or replacing them completely?

No doubt Porterbrook engineers will be looking at ways to stick Diesel Engines on them as we speak

 

[JStrainspotter]

The Stakeholder Briefing issued last year detailed most of the service requirements for the WM franchise:
WMBU 1 tph BNS-Wolves extended to Crewe via Stoke
New Sunday service BNS to Shrewsbury
Coventry-Leamington shuttle
XCity extended to Bromsgrove December 2018
WCBU Trent Valley service diverted to run direct Stafford to Crewe

Otherwise it is all frequency enhancements (evenings and Sundays, off-peak to Shrewsbury and Rugeley TV, and Coventry-Nuneaton when the Coventry bay built).

I think you are looking at the WMBU map and not finding BNS-Liverpool. This is WCBU service.

So there's new services from Barnes to Crewe and a Sunday service Barnes-Shrewsbury. Must be a long journey. And Barnes is getting West Coast Services too. A lot of investment for some metro station in London.

 

[Whistler40145]

Obviously you mean Birmingham New Street (Brum) and not Barnes, that would be a rather long journey to both Crewe and Shrewsbury!

 

[Japan0913]

JR東日本が参入できた理由
１．Suicaという鉄道向けの電子マネーを普及させている。
２．JR東日本とHitachi Railは寒冷地でローカル線向けの蓄電車を開発し導入している。
３．子会社の総合車両製作所では通勤型車両から新幹線まで豊富な開発経験があり英国向けの車両開発も任せられる。
４．JR東日本は日本の首都東京のネットワーク、主に寒冷地方面への新幹線ネットワーク、など豊富な運用実績を持っている。
５．日本では人的な遅延が起こらないよう運行管理システムが正確に機能している。
６．日本の場合営業を続けながらメンテナンスを行えるよう事前に緻密な計画をする。

ただし、
・英国では同じ路線に性格の違うオペレーターがいくつも同居しているので、どうしても遅れが発生しやすいので日本のように機能しない。
・日本では目立たなくなったストライキが英国ではまだまだ目立つ。これも一時的とは言えサービス低下の度合いが深刻。

 

[J-2739]

JR東日本が参入できた理由
１．Suicaという鉄道向けの電子マネーを普及させている。
２．JR東日本とHitachi Railは寒冷地でローカル線向けの蓄電車を開発し導入している。
３．子会社の総合車両製作所では通勤型車両から新幹線まで豊富な開発経験があり英国向けの車両開発も任せられる。
４．JR東日本は日本の首都東京のネットワーク、主に寒冷地方面への新幹線ネットワーク、など豊富な運用実績を持っている。
５．日本では人的な遅延が起こらないよう運行管理システムが正確に機能している。
６．日本の場合営業を続けながらメンテナンスを行えるよう事前に緻密な計画をする。

ただし、
・英国では同じ路線に性格の違うオペレーターがいくつも同居しているので、どうしても遅れが発生しやすいので日本のように機能しない。
・日本では目立たなくなったストライキが英国ではまだまだ目立つ。これも一時的とは言えサービス低下の度合いが深刻。

Btw, to mods, this isn't spam, I've just translated it and it's talking about the topic, here,

Reason why JR East could enter
1. Suica is spreading electronic money for the railroad.
2. JR East and Hitachi Rail are developing and introducing electric vehicles for local lines in cold areas.
3. The comprehensive vehicle factory of the subsidiary has extensive development experience from commuting type vehicles to Shinkansen and can leave the development of vehicles for Britain.
4. JR East has a wealth of operational experience including network of Japan's capital Tokyo, bullet train line network mainly to cold regions.
5. In Japan, the operation management system is functioning accurately so that there is no human delay.
6. In the case of Japan Prepare a precise plan so that maintenance can be carried out while continuing business.
However,
· In the UK, as many operators with different personality live together on the same route, they are unlikely to behave like Japan because they are easy to cause delays.
· In Japan, the strikes became less noticeable in the UK. Although this is also temporary, the degree of service deterioration is serious.

(Why am I still awake???)

 

[gray1404]

Is West Midlands Trains going to offer seat reservations on some routes?

Euston to Crewe
Euston to Birmingham
Birmingham to Liverpool

these routes would benefit greatly from seat reservations being offered.