Advice on fraudulently refunding tickets

[Fermiboson]

Bit of an unusual thread, this one.

A friend has recently confided in me that they have been refunding their tickets if the ticket has not been scanned either by a guard or by a ticket machine, despite having actually travelled. (I don't have a lot more details than that, but even if I did, I would think it unwise to post them here and potentially incriminate my friend on their behalf.) As I understand, this is a fraudulent misrepresentation in the use of refunds and is a lot more serious than a typical bylaw fare evasion offence (permanent criminal record?), but I have had trouble convincing them of the severity of what they are doing. (Worse still they're doing this on a TOC reputable for its lack of leniency!) Can anyone here provide more information on how serious this is, how TOCs would deal with such instances if discovered, or any previous examples of cases like this on this subforum?

 

[Wethebest838]

It’s very serious..I’d say worst than fare evasion personally myself. It can be charged under the fraud act. Some train companies are working with Trainline to catch these refund scammers out. I think Northern (correct if I’m wrong) have sent emails to people who they want to speak with in regards to excess refunds, I’ve seen this a few times here pop up. Can’t tell you the consequence of the top of my head.

It really does depend on the train company. Who are they doing it to? Sounds like Chiltern to me!

 

[Fermiboson]

It isn't Chiltern. I would like to not name the specific TOC so as to not give any more identifying information as absolutely necessary, but yknow, take your pick. I imagine the worst consequences among "those" TOCs is not that different in terms of impact to a young person. If it does differ a lot, then I'll give further information.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I guess the difference is in the likelihood of them agreeing an out of court settlement or prosecuting.

If they are prosecuted, and are in employment where integrity and honesty is a required attribute (eg financial services, law, healthcare), then a conviction would very likely lead to loss of employment, as the offence would clearly be for fraudulent activity as opposed to (say) forgetting to renew a railcard.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I guess the difference is in the likelihood of them agreeing an out of court settlement or prosecuting.

If they are prosecuted, and are in employment where integrity and honesty is a required attribute (eg financial services, law, healthcare), then a conviction would very likely lead to loss of employment, as the offence would clearly be for fraudulent activity as opposed to (say) forgetting to renew a railcard.

This is a great point. Forgetting to renew a railcard and buying a discount ticket could be seen as a momentary forgetfulness. But it's hard to see deliberate refunding of used tickets many times as anything other than deliberate fraud.
Someone I know was doing it "to save money" and I pointed out that, legally, they'd be better off shoplifting. I think that's when they realised the severity of what they were doing.

 

[dgl]

I suppose the friend needs to be told that the retailer/TOC in question probably knows what they are doing and are just waiting to get as much evidence together as possible before they start asking questions, plus that pleading innocence will have no effect.
Also ask them if they have the funds to pay back all the refunded tickets plus probably a decent chunk more (as there will be costs and the calculations will be based on full price single tickets).

 

[43096]

Bit of an unusual thread, this one.

A friend has recently confided in me that they have been refunding their tickets if the ticket has not been scanned either by a guard or by a ticket machine, despite having actually travelled. (I don't have a lot more details than that, but even if I did, I would think it unwise to post them here and potentially incriminate my friend on their behalf.) As I understand, this is a fraudulent misrepresentation in the use of refunds and is a lot more serious than a typical bylaw fare evasion offence (permanent criminal record?), but I have had trouble convincing them of the severity of what they are doing. (Worse still they're doing this on a TOC reputable for its lack of leniency!) Can anyone here provide more information on how serious this is, how TOCs would deal with such instances if discovered, or any previous examples of cases like this on this subforum?

You might want to remind them that they need to get away with this every time. The TOC only needs to catch them once and then the entire story will unravel.

 

[Fermiboson]

Am I correct in saying that prosecutions will be done under Fraud Act 2006, and a conviction will permanently show on any DBS check?

Also, my friend remains unconvinced that the TOC will actually find out what they are doing ("I'm more clever than these people who have been specifically trained to catch me, etc, etc.") Does anyone have examples of people being caught doing this and consequences thereof?

 

[methecooldude]

Fraudster used elaborate scam to swindle thousands from train companies

Sadeddine Ramdane was hauled before the courts for fraud

www.google.com

A fraudster who pocketed almost £9,000 from an elaborate scam targeting train companies narrowly avoided jail. Sadeddine Ramdane, 34, abused the system which offers refunds to passengers affected by genuine delays when using trains across the country, as part of a 'very sophisticated' racket.

Ramdane, formerly of Radcliffe, Bury, pleaded guilty to four counts of fraud and one count of possessing articles for use in fraud.

He was sentenced to 18 months in prison, suspended for 18 months, and ordered to complete 300 hours of unpaid work.

Excuse the mobile view link, I'm on my phone... although this case was abuse of delay repay instead of refunding tickets, its still simular fraud

 

[Sultan]

I think if I had a friend doing similar to your friend, I’d tell them to stop it straightaway on the basis it is fraudulent and open to the full prosecution of the law for fraud. These cases never end well, and TOCs are likely to publicise them as a deterrent to others, as in the link provided by @methecooldude. Costs will be well in excess of the amounts refunded, and there is a risk of serving time in one of His Majesty’s establishments.

Point them towards this thread and that is about all you can do. You’ve done your bit for them.

Good luck

 

[Gloster]

I believe I am correct in the following, but others may know better.

You could point out that if he was to be convicted under the Fraud Act (2006) he might find it difficult, if not impossible, to get visas to visit a number of countries including the United States and, I think, Australia. As yet we do not know whether there may be problems visiting the Schengen area from this year.

This might just make a few of the risks clear to him.

 

[30907]

If your friend uses Trainline, but has not yet been caught, they will quite possibly disable their auto-refund facility, based on their suspicious pattern of behaviour. I can't recall if we've had reports of other companies doing this, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[WesternLancer]

if discovered, or any previous examples of cases like this on this subforum?

Increasingly in recent months there have been cases of this coming up here - which indicates the digital process of refund claims are being scrutinised as it's clearly an area of concern to the railway.

see post #7 of this one

Email from Digital Fraud Team

I got an email from the digital fraud team, the 1st and 2nd email I didn’t see only noticed the 3rd one and I replied to it explaining that I didn’t see the first and 2nd email. Was asked to provide a job centre railcard I have been using, the thing is I never had the railcard I’m new to the...

www.railforums.co.uk

here's another current one (where the person is being investigated even though they think they indicate they have done not right wrong):

This looks like another one:

Debt recovery and potential prosecution

Hi everyone, I got a mail/letter from the Debt recovery and Prosecution unit of the Northern rail. Below is the content of the letter "This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Trains Limited. We have been alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history which we feel...

www.railforums.co.uk

and it would be easy to find several others with threats of being reported to the Transport Police or invitation to interviews under PACE Act

In addition there was the large (different 'offence' but analogous thread a few years back where Greater Anglia wrote to literally hundreds of customers alleging they had engaged in Delay-Repay Fraud (claiming delay payments they were not entitled to) which basically said - 'pay this back or we are prosecuting you'. This was presumed to have come from a digital assessment of a large number of people's delay claims.

The problem for your friend is the railway only need one case of a refunded fare on an occasion that matches CCTV showing them getting on a train to have a case. They will then threaten prosecution for that case - or demand a big sum for every ticket that has been refunded by your friend or they will take it to court.

But if your friend won't take your advice on this then there isn't much more you can do to advise them I fear.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It's perhaps worth noting that (I think) all the cases we've seen are where people have been picked up for fare dodging and subsequently receive further enquiries about their travel patterns. Against which we should also note LNER's (stated) use of AI which their press release said had picked up someone who had previously been seen as clean, and the curve upwards in the number of cases we are seeing.

So the advice to the OP's friend might be that they might get away with it today - but not tomorrow if they're picked up for any irregularity, and not the day after as the railway seems to be getting keener on looking for this sort of thing regardless of whether there's prior evidence of an offence.

 

[SussexSeagull]

As suggested previously, the first thing they need to do is stop doing it then hope no one notices what they have been up to.

 

[Krokodil]

Also, my friend remains unconvinced that the TOC will actually find out what they are doing ("I'm more clever than these people who have been specifically trained to catch me, etc, etc.") Does anyone have examples of people being caught doing this and consequences thereof?

I can't provide a specific example (those settled out of court don't tend to end up reported in the public domain) but many TOCs have wised up to this and are cracking down. Out of court settlements will be the sum total of everything refunded, plus a significant wedge in administration costs. I do know that TOCs have been checking CCTV to prove that people were travelling when they said that they weren't.

If the level of fraud doesn't drop then I would expect the government to start looking for its own ways to "save money". Probably involving reducing the passenger's right to refund their ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A fraud conviction is nothing trivial. You'll be unable to get banking, any form of credit and most jobs. A one way ticket to destitution.

 

[Greyman1]

With everything being digital, and leaving breadcrumbs for fraud investigators to follow..... I would stop immediately and start using tickets correctly.
The people who work for TOCs in this field are not stupid, most are experienced investigators who will ID you and look to recover money owed. Like others have said TOCs have wised up to this in recent years and are investing in systems and staff to combat fraud.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It always surprises me how many people think they are far more intelligent than they really are.

Potentially lucrative scams like this are obvious to most people but the majority of those tempted would think ‘If I can see how this could be abused I’m sure the company has realised and put something in place’ and therefore wouldn’t consider doing it. It seems to be mostly people who think ‘Aren’t I clever for spotting this’ who do it and find out they’re not when they have to pay it all back and possibly end up with a criminal conviction as a bonus.

 

[Busaholic]

Also, my friend remains unconvinced that the TOC will actually find out what they are doing ("I'm more clever than these people who have been specifically trained to catch me, etc, etc.") Does anyone have examples of people being caught doing this and consequences thereof?

Your friend may be cleverer, but are they wiser? A sense of impregnability will almost inevitably lead to an error at some stage, and someone's law will ensure that is spotted and acted upon, followed possibly by the proverbial knock on the door. Better for your friend, I suggest, to concede to himself that he's had a good run and got away with it so far, but give it up now and preserve your good name, assuming you have one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Does anyone have examples of people being caught doing this and consequences thereof?

It’s perhaps worth adding that in general this forum doesn’t get to hear final outcomes (although there’s been a recent and welcome upswing in people letting us know about them having concluded their cases with an out of court settlement). But while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it was notable that when Greater Anglia did a big sweep on dodgy Delay Repay claims a few years back, no one came back to tell us that they had successfully seen the railway off. So we’re not in a position to infer that consequences are minimal. We probably can infer that prosecution resulting in jail time doesn’t happen much/at all in that it might be expected that the media would pick up on that and so we’d have heard about it but this - tentatively - suggests to me that when people are caught the railway will, while holding the threat of prosecution over the head of the offender, settle for the fares evaded and the costs incurred.

Although as we are seeing in a current GWR thread, the fares tend to be the full fare rather than the cheapest available for the journey. And as we have seen in other cases, it’s possible to consider the level of costs to be punitive.

Finally, I’d comment that the title the OP has given the thread gives the answer. The OP knows that the refunds are fraudulent - that is, they’re criminal. The OP needs to explain that to their friend and suggest that if crime is detected and punished then the offender will get limited sympathy.

 

[BJames]

I have a similar thing with one of my friends. Incredibly smart person in all other parts of their life and I just cannot seem to get the point through. Reusing the same ticket between two unbarriered stations a few times and if unscanned at the end of the month (rare, as these are IC stations - but the travel times are often late), they'll refund as well. Couldn't believe it when I first heard (the reusing is a lot more common but refunding as well - seriously pushing their luck there).

 

[AlterEgo]

Am I correct in saying that prosecutions will be done under Fraud Act 2006

If they decide to prosecute at all.

, and a conviction will permanently show on any DBS check?

That is not correct. It depends on the type of DBS check and whether the conviction is spent or not.

Also, my friend remains unconvinced that the TOC will actually find out what they are doing ("I'm more clever than these people who have been specifically trained to catch me, etc, etc.") Does anyone have examples of people being caught doing this and consequences thereof?

There are plenty in the forum, and online. Just google "train company refund fraud". This is a very elementary type of fraud perpetuated by the dimwitted I'm afraid, and very easy to spot.

 

[blueberry11]

How about if you chose not to travel but wait until you see the train you intended to take has been delayed by at least 15 minutes or cancelled. Would that not be fraudulent as you intended not to travel and which would avoid the £10 additional fee?

In addition, if tickets that are already used (or scanned) and you decided to abandon your journey, how could you refund it in this way. Would the system know that there was a delay long enough that customers are allowed to abandon their journey and allow a free refund?

I see that this is the reason why they charge £10 for refunding. In short, you are still losing £10.

 

[Bungle158]

I believe I am correct in the following, but others may know better.

You could point out that if he was to be convicted under the Fraud Act (2006) he might find it difficult, if not impossible, to get visas to visit a number of countries including the United States and, I think, Australia. As yet we do not know whether there may be problems visiting the Schengen area from this year.

This might just make a few of the risks clear to him.

At the risk of veering off topic, the ETIAS scheme, which should go live in October 24, will include questions on criminal history. This doesn't necessarily mean a ban on travel to Schengen countries, but will almost certainly involve further interaction with relevant authorities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Simply being arrested under the Fraud Act would be sufficient to be effectively banned from visiting many countries including the US, even if not convicted.

It's really one to avoid. It will result in serious limitations on your life. It's not murder, but it's not far off in the wide-ranging impacts it would have to get a fraud conviction or even arrest.

 

[AlterEgo]

An arrest for fraud will not bar you from entry to the United States. Even a conviction wouldn’t bar you. You just need to apply for a visa instead of availing of ESTA.

A fraud conviction will not result in serious limitations on your life in the way some people imagine. It’s bad, for sure, but you will be able to live a normal life for the most part, especially once the conviction is spent.

 

[Southern Beau]

Simply being arrested under the Fraud Act would be sufficient to be effectively banned from visiting many countries including the US, even if not convicted.

It's really one to avoid. It will result in serious limitations on your life. It's not murder, but it's not far off in the wide-ranging impacts it would have to get a fraud conviction or even arrest.

Excuse my naivety here, so if you are suspected of fraud and then arrested under the fraud act (even if no charge is proven), you are then “effectively banned from visiting The USA”?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Excuse my naivety here, so if you are suspected of fraud and then arrested under the fraud act (even if no charge is proven), you are then “effectively banned from visiting The USA”?

An arrest for reasons of "moral turpitude" (a US definition that I think they've actually changed the wording of now which basically means "wilfully doing something seriously dishonest"), which certainly encompasses fraud, means you're ineligible for ESTA and have to apply for a visa. However there's no guarantee a visa will be issued - there's a very good chance it wouldn't for a crime like fraud unless you could explain it away very well and were not convicted.

It doesn't help that in the US you can be de-arrested which expunges the record (at least in these terms), but in the UK you generally can't, you're just released without charge and the arrest remains on the record.

 

[GB]

It doesn't help that in the US you can be de-arrested which expunges the record (at least in these terms), but in the UK you generally can't, you're just released without charge and the arrest remains on the record.

You can be "de arrested" in the UK providing you are somewhere other than a Police station. If the former, the record is only held by the officers pocket book, if the latter then you will be processed with record on file.