After 397s are introduced, will there be sufficient capacity on northern WCML services?

[Bletchleyite]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-class-397-nova-2-construction-and-updates.144812/

Pretty rapid fleet rollout if so, which sounds promising: I've been wondering whether there'll be many class 397s in use at the end of November, or whether to stick to changing onto the Virgin service at Preston on my way up to Edinburgh from Manchester at that time.

I suspect I too will look to switch to TPE - they look really, really nice.

 

[sprinterguy]

I suspect I too will look to switch to TPE - they look really, really nice.

Yeah they'll certainly encourage me to make use of the WCML Transpennine service throughout in future.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Yeah they'll certainly encourage me to make use of the WCML Transpennine service throughout in future.

This is where I hope then that First Trenitalia do a descent upgrade to the 390 Pendolino fleet and get the new trains right to keep competitive with TPEs Scottish service with Class 397s.

I will reserve judgement on the 397 until I have travelled on them myself but they look the better from the exterior that's for sure.

 

[CheshireCrusty]

Pretty rapid fleet rollout if so, which sounds promising: I've been wondering whether there'll be many class 397s in use at the end of November, or whether to stick to changing onto the Virgin service at Preston on my way up to Edinburgh from Manchester at that time.

Yeah they'll certainly encourage me to make use of the WCML Transpennine service throughout in future.

I saw one on the WCML the other day at 100mph + - looked very impressive!

I am still concerned they are 1 coach too small. Went totally off TPE because of the overcrowding on the doubled up 185s - regularly standing only Preston to Edinburgh (let alone the chaos Preston to Manchester). There will still be a 60+ shortfall of seats against 2x185. If a significant number of passengers now using VTWC switch to TPE the problem will return. I am one - currently using WBQ to EDB instead of my simpler albeit slower route from MIA.

 

[Energy]

I saw one on the WCML the other day at 100mph + - looked very impressive!

I am still concerned they are 1 coach too small. Went totally off TPE because of the overcrowding on the doubled up 185s - regularly standing only Preston to Edinburgh (let alone the chaos Preston to Manchester). There will still be a 60+ shortfall of seats against 2x185. If a significant number of passengers now using VTWC switch to TPE the problem will return. I am one - currently using WBQ to EDB instead of my simpler albeit slower route from MIA.

They have option for more 397s so hopefully they couple 2 together or go for an operation princess type service with more frequent shorter trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

I am still concerned they are 1 coach too small. Went totally off TPE because of the overcrowding on the doubled up 185s - regularly standing only Preston to Edinburgh (let alone the chaos Preston to Manchester). There will still be a 60+ shortfall of seats against 2x185. If a significant number of passengers now using VTWC switch to TPE the problem will return. I am one - currently using WBQ to EDB instead of my simpler albeit slower route from MIA.

Indeed - I'm mainly attracted to using the service due to the promise of "proper" end door inter-city stock and good chance of a seat that the new trains will bring. If they end up as busy as the 350s are at present, and there seems every chance that they will, as demand for Manchester - Scotland travel seems insatiable, then I guess I'll swap back to changing at Preston and using Virgin.

I've wondered about the ability of 5 car class 397s to handle demand on the route for a while, given previous experience of how busy former 8 car class 350 formations could be out of Manchester. Every time TPE have increased capacity on the route; 3 car 185s to 4 car 350s, improvements in frequency; the additional seats seem to get rapidly filled.

They have option for more 397s so hopefully they couple 2 together or go for an operation princess type service with more frequent shorter trains.

The platforms at Manchester Airport aren't long enough for a pair of 5-car class 397s. Would there be paths available for more than the existing hourly service? I'm not sure: Longer units would seem the most practical way to go.

 

[yrreb]

They have option for more 397s so hopefully they couple 2 together or go for an operation princess type service with more frequent shorter trains.

There's also of course the option to extend each 397 with a couple more coaches. Absolute longest one could be without infrastructure upgrades (not a problem from Preston and north of there) would be seven coaches realistically which would bring the seat count up from 264S/24F to 366S/48F (assuming there's a whole new Standard Open and then some kind of composite first/standard)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - I'm mainly attracted to using the service due to the promise of "proper" end door inter-city stock and good chance of a seat that the new trains will bring. If they end up as busy as the 350s are at present, and there seems every chance that they will, as demand for Manchester - Scotland travel seems insatiable, then I guess I'll swap back to changing at Preston and using Virgin.

I wouldn't say it was insatiable, but I probably would say that there is likely to be demand for something like an 11 car Pendolino each hour to Edinburgh plus a 2 hourly Glasgow.

 

[Energy]

There's also of course the option to extend each 397 with a couple more coaches. Absolute longest one could be without infrastructure upgrades (not a problem from Preston and north of there) would be seven coaches realistically which would bring the seat count up from 264S/24F to 366S/48F (assuming there's a whole new Standard Open and then some kind of composite first/standard)?

Yeah, 5 cars is a bit small, I'm suprised they didn't go for 7 cars. The 350s were only 4 cars but could be coupled together.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, 5 cars is a bit small, I'm suprised they didn't go for 7 cars. The 350s were only 4 cars but could be coupled together.

5s could just about be doubled up. I think a follow on order for some more units and doubling up of busy services (e.g. all Edinburghs) is probably a good way to go.

 

[JonathanH]

5s could just about be doubled up. I think a follow on order for some more units and doubling up of busy services (e.g. all Edinburghs) is probably a good way to go.

That isn't going to fit at the Airport.

 

[sprinterguy]

5s could just about be doubled up. I think a follow on order for some more units and doubling up of busy services (e.g. all Edinburghs) is probably a good way to go.

Class 397 vehicles are 23 - 24 metres long. There's no way a pair of 5-car unit will fit in Manchester Airport's 200 metre platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't going to fit at the Airport.

It could run to/from Victoria instead; there are plenty of other services running between Ringway and Preston/Lancaster/Oxenholme, and I doubt demand to the airport is particularly high from north of there (as both Scottish cities have their own considerably-sized airports) - the primary demand is Manchester to Scotland plus additional WCML capacity.

Alternatively, is the Picc reversing siding long enough for a double set? Or maybe for running one set from the Airport and the second one joining it at Picc?

 

[EE Andy b1]

How about splitting/joining at Preston for Scotland then run one train to Man Airport via Wigan NW and one train to Man Vic via Bolton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about splitting/joining at Preston for Scotland then run one train to Man Airport and via Wigan NW and one train to Man Vic via Bolton.

Another option would be a second set from Liverpool. XC used to run CrossCountry Express services thus:

1 x 158 - Manchester Airport to Preston via Bolton, coupled to a NWRR/FNW service as far as Bolton which then detached and ran via Westhoughton and Wigan (nothing at all via Parkside back then).
1 x 158 - Liverpool to Preston via St Helens C

Then couple them up and send them off to Scotland. I forget if they split again for Glasgow/Edinburgh or not.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I think however TPE run these services they need to be a double set North from Wigan NW or Preston to Edinburgh/Glasgow, but i just don't think they will have enough sets ordered to be able to do so. So maybe they need to get that CAF order extended now while they can.
Run as a 5 car alone these services will be pretty much full from the start.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Class 397 vehicles are 23 - 24 metres long. There's no way a pair of 5-car unit will fit in Manchester Airport's 200 metre platforms.

Or at Oxford Road.

 

[Phlip]

There will also be 802s direct from Manchester to Edinburgh via the ECML/Newcastle to take some of the demand

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or at Oxford Road.

They don't need to call there. In HST/Mk2 days they didn't.

 

[Greybeard33]

No capacity for reversing a 10-car, or even a 5-car, at Victoria. The reversing siding is not long enough so it would block a through platform for 20+ minutes. Terminating in Piccadilly P13 is a terrible idea - the extra dwell would worsen congestion in the corridor. Splitting/joining in Piccadilly P13/14 will never be permitted.

The only practical way to increase capacity is to lengthen the trains. Manchester Airport could take an 8-car, if it skipped Oxford Road.

 

[Jamesrob637]

There will also be 802s direct from Manchester to Edinburgh via the ECML/Newcastle to take some of the demand

Only if there are cheap Advances as I believe it's an hour longer.

 

[td97]

Only if there are cheap Advances as I believe it's an hour longer.

Half an hour usually. The first northbound of the day is routed via the Calder Valley which is an additional half hour, i.e. 1hr extra altogether.

 

[modernrail]

When are the Liverpool to Glasgow services now due to start (I think they were originally pencilled in for 2018?).

Perhaps they will help with capacity on the Manchester - Scotland services by taking some of the intermediate station traffic off. Presumably some of the Liverpool - Scotland load is also currently catching TPE trains at Wigan as well Virgin services, although I always try and time for a Virgin service.

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably some of the Liverpool - Scotland load is also currently catching TPE trains at Wigan as well Virgin services, although I always try and time for a Virgin service.

TPE don't stop at Wigan any more - their trains generally run through Bolton, many from non-stop Manchester to Preston (or pick up / set down only at Bolton)

 

[modernrail]

TPE don't stop at Wigan any more - their trains generally run through Bolton, many from non-stop Manchester to Preston (or pick up / set down only at Bolton)

Ah right, thanks. Pick up/set down only always makes me laugh as a concept. Maximum confusion for passengers. Anyway, that is probably OT.

 

[hexagon789]

When are the Liverpool to Glasgow services now due to start (I think they were originally pencilled in for 2018?).

December timetable change I believe, and quite possibly using 185s.

I think May this year was the original introduction date.

 

[ic31420]

Ah right, thanks. Pick up/set down only always makes me laugh as a concept. Maximum confusion for passengers. Anyway, that is probably OT.

And a waste of capacity

 

[tpjm]

And a waste of capacity

The point is to ensure that pax travelling from MIA/Manchester to the North can actually get on the train and not have to stand all the way to Bolton/Preston.

Manchester - Preston is already served (according to the DfT) by enough trains offering enough capacity. TPE Anglo-Scot services are there to offer the folks of Bolton a direct service to Scotland.

 

[johnpeter3]

Lol perhaps the dft people would like to experience crush standing most days...

 

[Meerkat]

Lol perhaps the dft people would like to experience crush standing most days...

You are assuming they don’t. If they work in London they quite possibly do.