Air Con trouble

[chris7153]

Travel a lot on Southeastern and the 375s have a lot of problems with air con not working or struggling in the heat. Making for some extremley uncomfortable traelling conditions. Given the 375 fleet has all undergone a refurbishment programme in the last 3 years, would have thought this wouldn't be an issue!. In instances where the air con fails rather than waiting for the guard to come round and unlock the opening Windows, couldn't these Windows be fitted with an auto opening device for when the interior temperature gets to hot.?

Be interesting to see what other stock is struggling in the heat, read threads of air con problems on 387 GN and 158s, anyone experienced any others, how about southern 377s?

 

[Bessie]

Class 458 on Reading line are struggling. Been on a couple of trains where the guard has come through with his Allen key to open the hopper windows. Good draught once done.

 

[DanNCL]

The 334s seemed to be struggling today, with the windows opened on many units.

 

[Mag_seven]

Why can't trains be fitted with aircon that works?

 

[Kite159]

Likewise I noticed a few 377s & 171s running around yesterday with the emergency windows opened

 

[jon0844]

Auto opening windows sounds expensive to design and fit, and maintain.

Far cheaper to have signs like on Greater Anglia inviting people to text or Tweet about the issue (the same signs saying what train coach you're in) someone can manually unlock and open windows if possible.

 

[scotraildriver]

The 334s seemed to be struggling today, with the windows opened on many units.

Given that only 13 of the 40 strong fleet have actually been fitted with aircon i assume you have been on one without.

 

[DanNCL]

Given that only 13 of the 40 strong fleet have actually been fitted with aircon i assume you have been on one without.

At least one of the units I was on had windows that could be locked shut, but were still open. Presumably that unit had air con? (I have no idea what number it was)

 

[scotraildriver]

No, all the 334s are fitted with lockable windows as air con was an option when new, but wasn't taken up. Now that they are being fitted the windows will be locked after it is installed.

 

[DanNCL]

No, all the 334s are fitted with lockable windows as air con was an option when new, but wasn't taken up. Now that they are being fitted the windows will be locked after it is installed.

Makes sense, I guess that means I've got no way of knowing if the unit I was on had air con or not.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Why can't trains be fitted with aircon that works?

Some types of trains are.

 

[alastair]

Some types of trains are.

Indeed. Travelled today on 4 different 444's on SWR. Air-con excellent on all of them. Also a 159, not as good and obviously struggling, but not too bad. And of course, temps of 30c/31c we have currently are extremely rare.

 

[causton]

Class 350 aircon has ranged from just-about-average to excellent in the past couple of weeks - not felt sweltering at all on them

 

[theageofthetra]

Travel a lot on Southeastern and the 375s have a lot of problems with air con not working or struggling in the heat. Making for some extremley uncomfortable traelling conditions. Given the 375 fleet has all undergone a refurbishment programme in the last 3 years, would have thought this wouldn't be an issue!. In instances where the air con fails rather than waiting for the guard to come round and unlock the opening Windows, couldn't these Windows be fitted with an auto opening device for when the interior temperature gets to hot.?

Be interesting to see what other stock is struggling in the heat, read threads of air con problems on 387 GN and 158s, anyone experienced any others, how about southern 377s?

Didn't help painting them a much darker colour. I met someone a few years back who fitted and maintained climate systems on large yachts and he reckoned a dark blue one needed something like an extra 20% more energy if used in hot climates.

I bet no consideration of this took place when the new livery was planned.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Good suggestion regarding auto-opening device. GWR need it. What makes me "laugh" is if air-conditioning can work in a shop all day in this weather reliably then why can't it work on trains?!

I think the worst thing the worst complaint on twitter about a GWR train without AC not working is a few days on the 19:03 London to Plymouth / Penzance service. Coach A was reported as being unbearable, the lights went out and the sockets weren't working.

I'm not sure if they asked if everyone was ok, just the basic reply 'We'll report this to maintenance'.

It does annoy me when GWR don't do anything to keep people comfortable except hand out water rather than try to fix it / reset it in service. GWR say AC is checked at the depot but faults can arise - sounds like it fails say 10 minutes after leaving the depot!

Not every train has it not working though.

I've had good times with GWR but it's not fair other passengers should suffer on journeys of a few hours or so in hot trains in this heat - particularly if your booked seat is in a warm coach.

 

[AndrewE]

Good suggestion regarding auto-opening device. GWR need it. What makes me "laugh" is if air-conditioning can work in a shop all day in this weather reliably then why can't it work on trains?

Because, like almost everything else, it has to be "tractionised" if it is going to survive in the railway environment. Stuff on land has been value-engineered to make it as cheap as possible to buy and install while (just) doing the job. Stuff on a train has to withstand a terrible physical battering that wrecks most mountings and bearings, so you need much heavier metal everywhere. I bet even a car "radiator" (the fluid to air heat exchanger) would fall to bits in a couple of days if fitted on a train.

 

[jon0844]

Air conditioning doesn't always work in a shop.. but it's probably quite easy to call an engineer and get it fixed within a few hours, even if major parts need replacing.. like fixing a washing machine or any other appliance.

A train can't so easily get an engineer/fitter out to fix anywhere at any time. It could be some time before the train is out of service to have certain repairs done, and then you have the issue of do you take a train out of public service to fix? If you do, how many people get upset that a train was cancelled just because one coach was hot.

 

[jimm]

Good suggestion regarding auto-opening device. GWR need it. What makes me "laugh" is if air-conditioning can work in a shop all day in this weather reliably then why can't it work on trains?!

I think the worst thing the worst complaint on twitter about a GWR train without AC not working is a few days on the 19:03 London to Plymouth / Penzance service. Coach A was reported as being unbearable, the lights went out and the sockets weren't working.

I'm not sure if they asked if everyone was ok, just the basic reply 'We'll report this to maintenance'.

It does annoy me when GWR don't do anything to keep people comfortable except hand out water rather than try to fix it / reset it in service. GWR say AC is checked at the depot but faults can arise - sounds like it fails say 10 minutes after leaving the depot!

Not every train has it not working though.

I've had good times with GWR but it's not fair other passengers should suffer on journeys of a few hours or so in hot trains in this heat - particularly if your booked seat is in a warm coach.

I'm glad you think every fault can be fixed at the flick of a switch. They can't.

All sorts of things can cause a failure and HSTs don't have the kind of diagnostic systems more modern trains have to give clues about what might be wrong.

Fitters at Paddington might get 20 or 30 minutes while a train turns round if they are lucky, so they can't always trace and fix faults/replace the coolant in that time.

Air con systems are running flat out at the moment due to the weather conditions, so guess what, they fail sometimes. Even on HSTs where the air con is working, the coaches are noticeably warmer than usual, which in my experience is an indication that the kit is under strain - which is hardly surprising after several weeks like this.

 

[Impey0711]

Was on 158 788 Friday EMT was rediculously hot no air con and the windows weren’t open

 

[43096]

I'm glad you think every fault can be fixed at the flick of a switch. They can't.

All sorts of things can cause a failure and HSTs don't have the kind of diagnostic systems more modern trains have to give clues about what might be wrong.

Fitters at Paddington might get 20 or 30 minutes while a train turns round if they are lucky, so they can't always trace and fix faults/replace the coolant in that time.

Air con systems are running flat out at the moment due to the weather conditions, so guess what, they fail sometimes. Even on HSTs where the air con is working, the coaches are noticeably warmer than usual, which in my experience is an indication that the kit is under strain - which is hardly surprising after several weeks like this.

And on an HST the aircon is in a module underneath the coach, so if you need access to it, it is realistically a depot job: the module will be either platform side (so won’t open) or you need a block on the adjoining track. Not going to happen.

In general terms HST aircon is pretty reliable and certainly better than LHCS (there’s no MA set or static converter to go wrong for a start...). What can make them warmer is that the system is most effective when the power car is in higher power notches. Sat in a station providing ETS only in the equivalent of notch 2 is not very effective at keeping the train cool.

 

[AM9]

And on an HST the aircon is in a module underneath the coach, so if you need access to it, it is realistically a depot job: the module will be either platform side (so won’t open) or you need a block on the adjoining track. Not going to happen.

In general terms HST aircon is pretty reliable and certainly better than LHCS (there’s no MA set or static converter to go wrong for a start...). What can make them warmer is that the system is most effective when the power car is in higher power notches. Sat in a station providing ETS only in the equivalent of notch 2 is not very effective at keeping the train cool.

... and even if the system had lost all/most of its refrigerant, it is illegal to just refill a system that uses HFCs, (i.e. virtually all in general use), without first finding and fixing the reason for the loss. So the options are, run without a/c or take the unit out of service and return it to a depot. I think I know which would be the least popular option.

 

[fgwrich]

Slightly on topic but, out of interest for any Chiltern line users, How is the Air Cooling stacking up on their 165s?

The GWR ones seem to be spending a lot of time in this heat either struggling (and dribbling most of the water out and down the sides of the units) or not at all. It does make me wonder if keeping the roofs of the Chiltern units light reflecting white helps theirs, light absorbing Matt Black GWR for reasons unknown has painted theirs isn’t helping their fleet?

Unusually the normally fairly reliable
liebherr systems on SWRs Sprinter fleet also is suffering as well. I took at 8 car formation to Waterloo on Friday with only the 52777 car providing air con. The rest had 0 air con and all windows open.

 

[broadgage]

Auto opening windows sounds expensive to design and fit, and maintain.

Far cheaper to have signs like on Greater Anglia inviting people to text or Tweet about the issue (the same signs saying what train coach you're in) someone can manually unlock and open windows if possible.

Windows that actually open via some power operated mechanism might well be expensive to design, fit and maintain.
However windows that are normally locked, but unlock in case of air conditioning failure should be simple.
Electromagnets that hold a door or window open or shut are readily available. I have installed them in buildings.

A very common use is internal fire stop doors in hospitals. Under normal conditions the doors are held open to permit of free passage. If the fire alarm operates, the door is released and closes.
Another application is windows on fire exit stairs , kept shut normally to exclude rain, dirt and pigeons, but open in case of fire to vent smoke.

I see no reason why similar electromagnets could not be fitted to train windows so as to lock them shut normally, if the air conditioning fails then the windows may be unlocked either by staff, or automatically according to the temperature.
The electricity supply that holds the window locked could also light a sign that reads "this vehicle is air conditioned and the window is therefore locked" These electromagnets are readily available for 24 volts DC and or for 230 volts AC, but could be manufactured for any voltage.
A mechanism to actually open the window would add extra complication and be a hazard in sudden heavy rain or when the train goes through the washer.

 

[broadgage]

This is the sort of product to which I refer.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Holding-...948438?hash=item2cd4837e96:g:i9gAAOSw9Ypa~m9L
Fleabay link to illustrate the TYPE of product to which I refer, no specific recommendation is implied regarding this particular seller.

 

[20Man]

The Chiltern 165's have varied from being like a freezer to being in a furnace.

 

[KingJ]

I travel at lot on Southeastern's 375s too, but haven't personally noticed tremendous amounts of AC failures. I'd say around 30% of the services i've caught have had an AC issue in one carriage or unit, but i've not been on a service yet where not a single carriage has working AC.

I do find that the temperature can be noticeably different at different ends of the carriage, but that's presumably down to where the AC is fitted.

I'd prefer it if the AC was working without flaw on all of the Southeastern AC-fitted units, but I understand there's still quite a maintenance backlog that they're trying to get through across the whole fleet, and they're prioritising issues that prevent the units from being in service at all over things that improve passenger comfort.

 

[superkev]

Until train operators are penalized financially for turning out defective trains I can't see things improving.
It's all down to good basic maintenance like keeping condenser grids free of track dirt, fans operate and checking for leaks etc.
K

 

[tsr]

A number of both Siemens and Bombardier trains amongst the GTR fleet have had to have their workings cancelled after the aircon failed. One or two 700s have suffered from this problem today - saloon AC packed up completely and they got sent ECS to depot. 377s have mainly had cancellations due to cab aircon issues but so far as I can see there have been some boiling hot passengers as well.

The 171s are particularly "interesting" as well - no opening windows on some of them, and problems with pressure warnings which shut down the AC equipment - plus they have thermometers onboard which the crew can read, and nobody's going to argue if they decided a train measuring 44C is uninhabitable!

 

[jon0844]

700035 or 36 has one coach with ridiculously noisy fans above it. 700006 was the same but seems to have been fixed.

No idea if the air con actually worked in those coaches but on the platform you could hear the trains coming a mile off.

 

[theageofthetra]

A number of both Siemens and Bombardier trains amongst the GTR fleet have had to have their workings cancelled after the aircon failed. One or two 700s have suffered from this problem today - saloon AC packed up completely and they got sent ECS to depot. 377s have mainly had cancellations due to cab aircon issues but so far as I can see there have been some boiling hot passengers as well.

The 171s are particularly "interesting" as well - no opening windows on some of them, and problems with pressure warnings which shut down the AC equipment - plus they have thermometers onboard which the crew can read, and nobody's going to argue if they decided a train measuring 44C is uninhabitable!

Absolutely pathetic that almost brand new units have failing A/C. Older units which can't use the refrigerant they were designed for fair enough.

Would love to know what stress testing of the system was done.