Air con

[doningtonphil]

Hello

I have had a search but can't find anything. I am sure that I have heard reports of complaints of airconditioning not working or being very ineffective on some classes of DMU. Is that the case? Did I dream it or is me raising this question like opeing a whole can of worms?

Thanks

Phil

 

[dgl]

Yes, certain mainly late BR DMU's (i.e. 158's) had systems installed just before the regulations on using CFC's changed nd their use was outlawed this meant that the systems installed had to use other gases that did not work very well and made the system less effective.

Some rail companies have had the systems replaced with newer systems and it improves the AC dramatically (i.e. SWT's 159/158's have a newer liebherr system)

 

[Deepgreen]

Hello

I have had a search but can't find anything. I am sure that I have heard reports of complaints of airconditioning not working or being very ineffective on some classes of DMU. Is that the case? Did I dream it or is me raising this question like opeing a whole can of worms?

Thanks

Phil

My experience of 165/166s on the North Downs line is that anything above 25C usually defeats their A/C!

 

[PHILIPE]

The Aircon on ATW and GWR (at least) still haven't been sorted after 25 years.
SWT changed to a different system which proved successful.

 

[dgl]

The Aircon on ATW and GWR (at least) still haven't been sorted after 25 years.
SWT changed to a different system which proved successful.

Though was on a 3 car 158 the other day (from Yeovil to Weymouth) and the front (extra) car had different seating to the rest (the newer (grammar?) seating whereas the middle car at least seemed to have the original seating), but the main thing was when waiting in the vestibule I saw the same A/C panel as in SWT's units (4 lights and the liebherr logo) so has one unit had upgraded air conditioning?

 

[jimm]

My experience of 165/166s on the North Downs line is that anything above 25C usually defeats their A/C!

The GWR 165s don't have any air conditioning - unless you mean the hopper windows - and the 166s's system has always been pretty half-baked, partly for the reason noted above, but also because it had to be fitted on to the existing 165 design as best as could be managed when the 166 was invented to cover longer-distance NSE jobs from Paddington, not least the Cotswold Line when that route was transferred from Regional Railways.

The 166s are currently visiting Long Marston in dribs and drabs to have yet more air con modifications but whether it will make any fundamental difference in hot weather remains to be seen. The various rounds of modifications in recent years do seem to have cured the system's habit of failing in cold weather as well but summers remain a challenge.

 

[superkev]

In warm weather Northerns 158s can usually be see with the emergency hopper windows open indicating an a/c problem.
Shame that after all these years no attempt seems to have been made to sort it out which spoils an otherwise nice train.
Could it be the ability to open some windows lowers the priority of maintenance staff fixing a/c faults.
K

 

[380101]

In warm weather Northerns 158s can usually be see with the emergency hopper windows open indicating an a/c problem.
Shame that after all these years no attempt seems to have been made to sort it out which spoils an otherwise nice train.
Could it be the ability to open some windows lowers the priority of maintenance staff fixing a/c faults.
K

It's usually the "unauthorised" opening of the hopper windows that cause a/c failures. This is a big pet hate of mine on 380's. I always lock them closed again if I see them open and there are no faults showing on the screen.

 

[theageofthetra]

Has this issue been resolved on the 375's that have been refurbished? I understand the system shuts down above 32c to protect itself due to the cfc substitute issue.

 

[43096]

It's usually the "unauthorised" opening of the hopper windows that cause a/c failures. This is a big pet hate of mine on 380's. I always lock them closed again if I see them open and there are no faults showing on the screen.

In many cases it is "authorised" opening on the 158s by the guards that causes the problems. I suspect the crews are not well trained on how the system works.

Regarding 158/159 aircon upgrades, I think SWT, ScotRail and Northern units all have the Liebherr systems. GWR sets are getting aircon upgrades on the next round of C6 overhauls (which are just starting) and ATW don't appear to have done anything with their sets.

 

[vicbury]

In many cases it is "authorised" opening on the 158s by the guards that causes the problems. I suspect the crews are not well trained on how the system works.

Regarding 158/159 aircon upgrades, I think SWT, ScotRail and Northern units all have the Liebherr systems. GWR sets are getting aircon upgrades on the next round of C6 overhauls (which are just starting) and ATW don't appear to have done anything with their sets.

Do the GWR coaches which already have the latest Liebherr system fitted? I ask as whilst it's undoubtedly better than the original system which never seems to work at all, the Liebherr system on the GWR 158s never seems particularly effective.

Still, I'll believe that journeys in pleasant temperatures are possible between Bath and Portsmouth when I experience it, especially as GWR have been promising fixes for years..

 

[cjmillsnun]

Has this issue been resolved on the 375's that have been refurbished? I understand the system shuts down above 32c to protect itself due to the cfc substitute issue.

375s should be OK as they were designed to use R134a from the start. That sounds more like the system being overfilled so that the trinary switch detects excess pressure and shuts the system down (air conditioning systems are essentially the same in whatever application they are used in).

The Mk3s, Mk4s and 158s on the other hand were designed to use the far more efficient R12, and using R134a causes problems as it operates at a higher pressure than the system is designed to take.

 

[scotsman]

375s should be OK as they were designed to use R134a from the start. That sounds more like the system being overfilled so that the trinary switch detects excess pressure and shuts the system down (air conditioning systems are essentially the same in whatever application they are used in).

The Mk3s, Mk4s and 158s on the other hand were designed to use the far more efficient R12, and using R134a causes problems as it operates at a higher pressure than the system is designed to take.

GNER's Mallard refurbishments saw the air con units replaced on the Mk4 sets, with a lot of work going into what were the smoking areas - with the air con being uprated to able to keep the air clear and fresh

 

[Deepgreen]

The GWR 165s don't have any air conditioning - unless you mean the hopper windows - and the 166s's system has always been pretty half-baked, partly for the reason noted above, but also because it had to be fitted on to the existing 165 design as best as could be managed when the 166 was invented to cover longer-distance NSE jobs from Paddington, not least the Cotswold Line when that route was transferred from Regional Railways.

The 166s are currently visiting Long Marston in dribs and drabs to have yet more air con modifications but whether it will make any fundamental difference in hot weather remains to be seen. The various rounds of modifications in recent years do seem to have cured the system's habit of failing in cold weather as well but summers remain a challenge.

Quite right of course - the 165s are not fitted with A.C.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Quite right of course - the 165s are not fitted with A.C.

The Chiltern ones are.

 

[jimm]

The Chiltern ones are.

Though I believe the official description for the system used by Chiltern is air cooling, rather than conditioning.

GWR is going to fit something similar to its 165s when they move to Bristol area services.

 

[168lover]

The Chiltern ones are.

Barely

 

[455driver]

Though was on a 3 car 158 the other day (from Yeovil to Weymouth) and the front (extra) car had different seating to the rest (the newer (grammar?) seating whereas the middle car at least seemed to have the original seating), but the main thing was when waiting in the vestibule I saw the same A/C panel as in SWT's units (4 lights and the liebherr logo) so has one unit had upgraded air conditioning?

Thats because the GWR 158/9s are made up from coaches from different units, the 'extra' coach would be one coach from a unit which has been split to make another set up to 3 coaches, the other coach is working in another set.
eg-
158950 is 158761 plus one coach from 158751
158951 is 158764 plus the other coach from 158751
158952 is 158762 plus one coach from 158745
158952 is 158750 plus the other coach from 158745
etc.

 

[PHILIPE]

In many cases it is "authorised" opening on the 158s by the guards that causes the problems. I suspect the crews are not well trained on how the system works.

Regarding 158/159 aircon upgrades, I think SWT, ScotRail and Northern units all have the Liebherr systems. GWR sets are getting aircon upgrades on the next round of C6 overhauls (which are just starting) and ATW don't appear to have done anything with their sets.

ATW will only do anything if somebody else pays for it. On reflection, shouldn't the ROSCOs be responsible as they own the units and merely lease them out.

 

[Stigy]

The overly warm conditions on some DMUs isn't helped by the engines underneath I'd imagine, either.

 

[dgl]

Thats because the GWR 158/9s are made up from coaches from different units, the 'extra' coach would be one coach from a unit which has been split to make another set up to 3 coaches, the other coach is working in another set.
eg-
158950 is 158761 plus one coach from 158751
158951 is 158764 plus the other coach from 158751
158952 is 158762 plus one coach from 158745
158952 is 158750 plus the other coach from 158745
etc.

thanks for that, quite logical and shows the flexibility of the sprinters.

 

[43096]

ATW will only do anything if somebody else pays for it. On reflection, shouldn't the ROSCOs be responsible as they own the units and merely lease them out.

The ROSCOs will do it, but only at customer request. They are not going to spend money they don't need to without being able to recover it through the leasing charge.

 

[bengley]

Though I believe the official description for the system used by Chiltern is air cooling, rather than conditioning.

GWR is going to fit something similar to its 165s when they move to Bristol area services.

Chiltern 165s have proper air conditioning

 

[jimm]

Chiltern 165s have proper air conditioning

Not according to Angel Trains, which owns them - the wording they use on the technical description is "Comfort Cooling"

https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Passenger-Trains/8

 

[455driver]

Chiltern 165s have proper air conditioning

As already stated, and repeated for the hard of reading, no they don't, they have a cooling system which just cools the incoming air as opposed to a proper air conditioning system which dries the air (plus other stuff) as well.

 

[superkev]

As already stated, and repeated for the hard of reading, no they don't, they have a cooling system which just cools the incoming air as opposed to a proper air conditioning system which dries the air (plus other stuff) as well.

In the world of buildings the term is "comfort cooling". Full air conditioning controls both temperature AND humidity.
K

 

[bengley]

As already stated, and repeated for the hard of reading, no they don't, they have a cooling system which just cools the incoming air as opposed to a proper air conditioning system which dries the air (plus other stuff) as well.

No need to be rude, though, is there? This isn't the first time I've seen you being slightly condescending on here.

 

[43096]

No need to be rude, though, is there? This isn't the first time I've seen you being slightly condescending on here.

The opposite point of view is that you got the response you deserved for not reading the thread as the answer was already there.

 

[bengley]

The opposite point of view is that you got the response you deserved for not reading the thread as the answer was already there.

I did read the thread. I read posts with no evidence to back them up.

I used to use Chiltern 165s a fair bit and it's fair to say they can feel arctic in the summer, so easy to assume they have air conditioning.

Now that evidence has been posted to back them up I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong, but it's still not a reason to be rude, seeing as I read the whole thread before replying.