Alliance Rail application for paths between Waterloo and Southampton rejected

[BestWestern]

Alliance have an update released on Friday June 16th, which goes as follows and can be seen at http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/projects:



Route map on the page sees route of Southampton Central, Eastleigh, Winchester, Basingstoke, Hook and London Waterloo

Apologies in advance, this will have been asked already I'm sure, but how many 442s are 'new SWT' having, and how many are anticipated to be left over for amateurs' hour? I gathered the handful not needed for proper train services would be a presumably much needed source of spares for their classmates. The ROSCO must think it's Christmas!

 

[Feathers44]

Apologies in advance, this will have been asked already I'm sure, but how many 442s are 'new SWT' having, and how many are anticipated to be left over for amateurs' hour? I gathered the handful not needed for proper train services would be a presumably much needed source of spares for their classmates. The ROSCO must think it's Christmas!

From memory, First/MTR are getting 18 which (conveniently) leaves 6 which happens to be the number that Alliance have been talking about all along.

 

[BestWestern]

From memory, First/MTR are getting 18 which (conveniently) leaves 6 which happens to be the number that Alliance have been talking about all along.

Do they need six to operate their timetable, or does that figure include spares? They're going to struggle if they're hoping for 100% availability! Are they expecting to tag onto the retractioning of the rest?

 

[Suraggu]

Apologies in advance, this will have been asked already I'm sure, but how many 442s are 'new SWT' having, and how many are anticipated to be left over for amateurs' hour? I gathered the handful not needed for proper train services would be a presumably much needed source of spares for their classmates. The ROSCO must think it's Christmas!

18 for use for the new First/MTR franchise.

 

[Polarbear]

Those 707's that SWT ordered won't be on lease for that long. Would they, with a suitable adjustment to the internal configuration, be any use to Alliance?

 

[pompeyfan]

Those 707's that SWT ordered won't be on lease for that long. Would they, with a suitable adjustment to the internal configuration, be any use to Alliance?

They'd need toilets fitted (which is reasonably straight forward) and they'd need to be offered at an attractive price. You'd also be splitting a fleet of trains into a fleet of 6 and 24, when I'd imagine a ROSCO would rather just offer a fleet of 30 to whoever they're offering them too.

 

[infobleep]

So how can they add peak trains? I thought there was no capacity through Clapham Junction or there is theoretical space for 2 more but it's not used due to it not working in practice. Perhaps they could run them via Putney East! [Is that the right name for that section of line?]

 

[GW43125]

So how can they add peak trains? I thought there was no capacity through Clapham Junction or there is theoretical space for 2 more but it's not used due to it not working in practice. Perhaps they could run them via Putney East! [Is that the right name for that section of line?]

It's once you get north of Woking that it's full, there's no capacity via Chertsey either so there's nothing.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When one of the Weymouth-Waterloo trains becomes Weymouth-Portsmouth, will the path east of where the Portsmouth Trains leave the Weymouth-Waterloo route be free or will it be spoken for by something else?

 

[swt_passenger]

When one of the Weymouth-Waterloo trains becomes Weymouth-Portsmouth, will the path east of where the Portsmouth Trains leave the Weymouth-Waterloo route be free or will it be spoken for by something else?

The franchise spec service pattern that gives the clues to the diversion of the Weymouth to Portsmouth service also still has a Waterloo to Southampton service running.

Today you have 2 Weymouth's and a Poole off-peak, the spreadsheet on the DfT site allows that to become Waterloo to Weymouth, WAT to Poole, and WAT to Southampton.

I'm wondering if the peak flow directions will still see different calling patterns as now, with those 4 or 5 trains that split/join at Southampton?

I suspect it means that in the off-peak trains as far as Southampton Central will leave Waterloo with broadly the same timings and calling patterns as now (ignoring the slight all round speeding top that is on offer). So if you are say a Winchester passenger the journey opportunities won't be that different.

 

[pompeyfan]

The franchise spec service pattern that gives the clues to the diversion of the Weymouth to Portsmouth service also still has a Waterloo to Southampton service running.

Today you have 2 Weymouth's and a Poole off-peak, the spreadsheet on the DfT site allows that to become Waterloo to Weymouth, WAT to Poole, and WAT to Southampton.

I'm wondering if the peak flow directions will still see different calling patterns as now, with those 4 or 5 trains that split/join at Southampton?

I suspect it means that in the off-peak trains as far as Southampton Central will leave Waterloo with broadly the same timings and calling patterns as now (ignoring the slight all round speeding top that is on offer). So if you are say a Winchester passenger the journey opportunities won't be that different.

Are we certain Weymouth/Dorchester will be losing one of their trains an hour to Waterloo? Or is that fag packet maths?

 

[infobleep]

It's once you get north of Woking that it's full, there's no capacity via Chertsey either so there's nothing.

Maybe they are referring to the peak as being peak time tickets so roughly everything before 9am. I realise that is a simplification. Thus the additional peak service might be between 6am and 7am, when perhaps less trains run through Clapham Junction.

 

[CosherB]

Does this mean that all 442s would eventually get retractioned to give a uniform fleet? A big 'if' where Alliance are concerned....

 

[alastair]

Apologies in advance, this will have been asked already I'm sure, but how many 442s are 'new SWT' having, and how many are anticipated to be left over for amateurs' hour? I gathered the handful not needed for proper train services would be a presumably much needed source of spares for their classmates. The ROSCO must think it's Christmas!

"Amateurs hour"? More than a bit patronising is'nt it?

Alliance Rail are part of Arriva which is part of DB.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Does this mean that all 442s would eventually get retractioned to give a uniform fleet? A big 'if' where Alliance are concerned....

Logic would dictate yes. If Vossloh or whoever are carrying out a job for one customer for a sum of money, there's no reason they can't do the same job for a different customer.

One question, if this all comes off, is where maintenance will be done for the Alliance sets? Eastleigh is more or less the only (non-SWR, who I can't imagine would be keen to do it) choice, but that's going to be a big bill for Alliance, if nothing else to put the facilities in (although Eastleigh T&RSMD is Arriva Traincare on account of Voyagers)

 

[swt_passenger]

Are we certain Weymouth/Dorchester will be losing one of their trains an hour to Waterloo? Or is that fag packet maths?

It's still only an assumption, but is based on a DfT Excel spreadsheet that was part of the franchise spec.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-attachment-a-train-service-specification.pdf

However I don't think anyone realistically expects there to be 3 tph at Weymouth, (including a Portsmouth service), so I believe it is quite a reasonable assumption. I've attached a screenshot in case anyone cannot open the file.

However, I think the real reason for the earlier question by SpacePhoenix was to see if the rexpected First Group changes will result in a Southampton - Waterloo path becoming free for Alliance to use, and I suspect the answer to that is most definitely not.

 

[swt_passenger]

One question, if this all comes off, is where maintenance will be done for the Alliance sets? Eastleigh is more or less the only (non-SWR, who I can't imagine would be keen to do it) choice, but that's going to be a big bill for Alliance, if nothing else to put the facilities in (although Eastleigh T&RSMD is Arriva Traincare on account of Voyagers)

Eastleigh TRSMD is the location suggested for Alliance earlier in this thread, and I see little to contradict that.

 

[pompeyfan]

Eastleigh TRSMD is the location suggested for Alliance earlier in this thread, and I see little to contradict that.

I don't think Eastleigh TRSMD has juice going into the Campbell road entrance. Would they use South Junction?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think Eastleigh TRSMD has juice going into the Campbell road entrance. Would they use South Junction?

How did the 455s get in and out before the re-traction work was transferred to the works?

 

[pompeyfan]

How did the 455s get in and out before the re-traction work was transferred to the works?

It's 2 separate sites, you've got Eastleigh works which is where carriages are overhauled etc on one side of Campbell Road, and on the other side is Eastleigh TCD which is where the voyagers are cleaned and washed etc overnight. If you get a chance it's a lot easier to have a look at google maps satalite view than with me trying to explain.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's 2 separate sites, you've got Eastleigh works which is where carriages are overhauled etc on one side of Campbell Road, and on the other side is Eastleigh TCD which is where the voyagers are cleaned and washed etc overnight. If you get a chance it's a lot easier to have a look at google maps satalite view than with me trying to explain.

I know all that.

The 455s were initially worked on in the TRSMD, and they got there under power. The satellite view, (I assume being reasonably up to date as it includes the up slow), also shows third rail alongside both roads into the north end of the depot...

 

[pompeyfan]

In that case I retract my statement. I've looked before and could have sworn there the only 3rd rail there was in case of wrong route. I've just double checked and you're correct there is 3rd rail into the TRMSD. Must be a senile moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

In that case I retract my statement. I've looked before and could have sworn there the only 3rd rail there was in case of wrong route. I've just double checked and you're correct there is 3rd rail into the TRMSD. Must be a senile moment.

No problem, and of course the presence of a juice rail doesn't mean it is powered up, I guess. Have wondered before whether it is on all the time in the depot, or only when/if needed.

 

[BestWestern]

"Amateurs hour"? More than a bit patronising is'nt it?

Alliance Rail are part of Arriva which is part of DB.

And they'll be an operator running into one of the country's busiest and most congested railway stations, with a total fleet of six, thirty year old trains. Seriously?

I'm happy to admit that I think Open Access is a needless distraction from the business of running a franchised, heavily micro-managed railway network. You can have a free market and competiton, or you can have regulation. The railway attempting 99% of the latter, with a tiny smattering of the former where it happens to be convenient, is not a good use of already overworked infrastructure. Using the railway is a challenge already, tiny operators squeezing obscure train services onto already crowded routes, not when services are needed at the busiest times, but whenever and wherever there happens to be a space, further increasing fragmentation and and confusion, is not progress. It merely makes the passenger experience even more baffling and less integrated.

 

[telstarbox]

Am I right in thinking that since it was set up in 2009, Alliance has yet to run a single passenger train?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Am I right in thinking that since it was set up in 2009, Alliance has yet to run a single passenger train?

You are indeed

 

[Y186520]

Eastleigh depot entrance seen from Campbell road bridge.

The 3rd rails were there at end of March. Seen when 34046 came through.

The picture was taken on the 12th June and they had been removed.

I saw a gang working one visit there, but do not recall date, and of course
not noticed that the 3rd rails had gone since.

 

[swt_passenger]

Eastleigh depot entrance seen from Campbell road bridge.

The 3rd rails were there at end of March. Seen when 34046 came through.

The picture was taken on the 12th June and they had been removed.

I saw a gang working one visit there, but do not recall date, and of course
not noticed that the 3rd rails had gone since.

Thanks for the update. I suppose it isn't that difficult to re-install though, it is unlikely to be the straw that breaks the camel's back...

 

[Y186520]

Thanks for the update. I suppose it isn't that difficult to re-install though, it is unlikely to be the straw that breaks the camel's back...

A short section of the 3rd rail remains up by the exit signals and points on both
lines.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Alliance Rail headed up Grand Central before the Arriva days didnt they?

Either that or Yeowart set up Alliance on leaving Grand Central at Arrivas aquisition....