Alliance Rail GNWR Services Approved

[dk1]

I beg to differ in that it is from Queens Park which is connected to the underground and is relatively close to the center of London also it should challenge virgin on its Blackpool working, because they have only got 2 trains a day and the new open access has many more.

But is there really enough revenue to be made from Blackpool or is it more the case that it will be the stations on the WCML proper that will prop this service up?

 

[Starmill]

I am *very* uneasy about this!? Off-Peak services from Blackpool to Queens Park? That's going to work...?

And they have been granted a path... only to squander it with a 6-car train?

Also, their stock will need to learn a lot of the lessons of the Class 390. I'm not seeing much on the positive side!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

But is there really enough revenue to be made from Blackpool or is it more the case that it will be the stations on the WCML proper that will prop this service up?

Well considering that they're only going to generate £6.32m of their own revenue and will be abstracting £21.55m from other operators I think that they will be being propped up!

 

[Gathursty]

I can imagine several travellers freaking out when they get out of Queen's Park and think to themselves 'this is not central London' even though the ticket and announcements say this will terminate at Queen's Park (London). How will the new operator market the fact that they are not quite going to Euston in a positive way?

 

[thealexweb]

Why a six car Class 390? That cannot be doubled up. It is such a waste of a path. We really cannot afford to keep wasting paths on such tidler trains.

 

[route:oxford]

I can imagine several travellers freaking out when they get out of Queen's Park and think to themselves 'this is not central London' even though the ticket and announcements say this will terminate at Queen's Park (London). How will the new operator market the fact that they are not quite going to Euston in a positive way?

Perhaps they'll point out that Underground to Queen's Park is an over-platform change? Unlike Euston Underground to Euston Station which is a miserable trek in the rain. Or perhaps regular users of Euston will appreciate the change from waiting until the last minute then allow the swarm onto the platform for the 250 metre sprint to the most distant coach?

There does seem to be a bit of conflict there...

With forum factions both protesting about the remote location of Queens Park implying limited use of the service, then protesting that there are only 6 cars.

 

[najaB]

Why a six car Class 390? That cannot be doubled up.

It will not be a six car Class 390. Pendolino ≠ Class 390.

 

[northwichcat]

1) Will Blackpool be electrified by early 2018?

Current plan is to close the Blackpool-Preston line from December 2017 to Feb/March 2018 to complete the relevant electrification/infrastructure work.
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Predictably, the article talks up the competition with Virgin.
What they forget is that by 2018 the West Coast franchise may be in different hands, and will have a different specification when it comes.

But Virgin are happy to submit consultation responses and information to the media suggesting that they'll be still running the services then.

 

[bnm]

Perhaps they'll point out that Underground to Queen's Park is an over-platform change? Unlike Euston Underground to Euston Station which is a miserable trek in the rain.

It's only a miserable trek if you want the Circle/H&C/Met. Euston mainline has the Victoria and both branches of the Northern. Plus, if it's raining at Euston it's likely raining at Queen's Park. Gonna get wet trekking along the uncovered slow line platforms.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Current plan is to close the Blackpool-Preston line from December 2017 to Feb/March 2018 to complete the relevant electrification/infrastructure work.

Unless you've seen something new, those dates are supposed to be a year earlier (finished in Q1 2017).
I'm well aware it won't be...

 

[najaB]

Gonna get wet trekking along the currently uncovered slow line platforms.

Fixed just as easily in real life.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can imagine several travellers freaking out when they get out of Queen's Park and think to themselves 'this is not central London' even though the ticket and announcements say this will terminate at Queen's Park (London). How will the new operator market the fact that they are not quite going to Euston in a positive way?

Lots of photos of Euston in their publicity to show passengers what they'll be avoiding?

Hopefully they can work out some sort of a deal with TfL to automatically include Z1-2 validity (a single journey if not full travelcard) on their tickets...

 

[HowardGWR]

It's only a miserable trek if you want the Circle/H&C/Met. Euston mainline has the Victoria and both branches of the Northern. Plus, if it's raining at Euston it's likely raining at Queen's Park. Gonna get wet trekking along the uncovered slow line platforms.

I had a look at the bus stops on Google Earth and they are (astonishingly to my mind) also a 'miserable trek', down to the Kilburn Library. Also, what would otherwise be a useful chance to get the bus to the Overground at Brondesbury Park for cross London trips, is made worse by the fact that the bus stops for that are nowhere near that station either. If I were GNWR, I would try to get those stops moved, or inserted.

I would think that Willesden Jcn was a better outer interchange than Queens Park, more of the character of Ealing or Finsbury?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why a six car Class 390? That cannot be doubled up. It is such a waste of a path. We really cannot afford to keep wasting paths on such tidler trains.

Queen's Park platforms are 194m long, according to the Sectional Appendix.
So presumably 8-car 23m trains are the maximum that will fit.
Of course, the trains will run to Euston if the HS2 reconstruction has not started (still a long way to go in the approval process).

 

[Quakkerillo]

I had a look at the bus stops on Google Earth and they are (astonishingly to my mind) also a 'miserable trek', down to the Kilburn Library. Also, what would otherwise be a useful chance to get the bus to the Overground at Brondesbury Park for cross London trips, is made worse by the fact that the bus stops for that are nowhere near that station either. If I were GNWR, I would try to get those stops moved, or inserted.

I would think that Willesden Jcn was a better outer interchange than Queens Park, more of the character of Ealing or Finsbury?

I hardly doubt TfL will move their bus stops for 6x/day services.
Willesden Junction only has platforms on the DC line, with 3rd/4th rail. No overhead lines, and the only crossover to the DC line is near Watford Jcn if I see correct, so it would be a long slow drive behind some Overground/Tube services until reaching Willesden.

 

[najaB]

I hardly doubt TfL will move their bus stops for 6x/day services.

They could , however, be convinced to add a stop - all in the name of joined up transport.

 

[HowardGWR]

I hardly doubt TfL will move their bus stops for 6x/day services.
Willesden Junction only has platforms on the DC line, with 3rd/4th rail. No overhead lines, and the only crossover to the DC line is near Watford Jcn if I see correct, so it would be a long slow drive behind some Overground/Tube services until reaching Willesden.

Yes, I should have used 'would have been'. I can remember when the platforms were there and I had not looked to see if they still were. Perhaps these services will end up running to OOC one day?

 

[The Planner]

Of course, the trains will run to Euston if the HS2 reconstruction has not started (still a long way to go in the approval process).

I would beg to differ, I don't think they will.

 

[MK Tom]

I'm wondering if these six car Pendolinos will be 390s, a close relative of 390s that looks similar or some totally different Pendolino design more like those used overseas. Class 391 perhaps!

 

[najaB]

I'm wondering if these six car Pendolinos will be 390s, a close relative of 390s that looks similar or some totally different Pendolino design more like those used overseas. Class 391 perhaps!

It's pretty much a given that they will be a new design. Apparently the 390 doesn't meet current regulations - the additional carriages for extending the 9-car sets to 11-cars were allowed as they were a follow-on order but there won't be any more sets built in the future.

 

[All Line Rover]

Three words: About bloody time!
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Doomed to failure if it doesn't go into Euston. Effectively it's a Milton Keynes - Blackpool service. Nothing for Virgin to be bothered about, unfortunately.

Unless you need to access the immediate Euston/KGX area or the City, I would suggest that Queens Park is a better London terminus than Euston. A trip on the Bakerloo line from Queens Park to Oxford Circus is more pleasant than a trip on the Victoria line from Euston to Oxford Circus. There is also no need to navigate your way through hordes of people and descend multiple escalators before you can even board the tube.

Still, it's a shame that the terminus isn't Willesden Junction, which provides better connections with London Overground (and is especially useful for passengers needing to access south / west London, who currently need to double-back via Euston). I understand that there aren't WCML platforms at the station, but what happened to those (admittedly very speculative) proposals by London Travelwatch to (re)-install WCML platforms at Willesden Junction? The Watford/Harrow/Wembey/Willesden portion of the WCML is a complete mess for local journeys, requiring as many as three changes for journeys of just a few miles.

 

[Chester1]

I am *very* uneasy about this!? Off-Peak services from Blackpool to Queens Park? That's going to work...?

And they have been granted a path... only to squander it with a 6-car train?

Also, their stock will need to learn a lot of the lessons of the Class 390. I'm not seeing much on the positive side!!!

6 car is only a waste if services never end up getting to Euston. If they are 20m cars rather than 23m then 2x6 car will be able to fit into any platform that 11 car 390s can use. If paths to Euston are never granted I suspect they will be extended as passenger numbers grow.

I can imagine several travellers freaking out when they get out of Queen's Park and think to themselves 'this is not central London' even though the ticket and announcements say this will terminate at Queen's Park (London). How will the new operator market the fact that they are not quite going to Euston in a positive way?

They will pick some places were their service + Bakerloo line is quicker than via Euston and fail to mention any other places. Bakerloo is quite convient, the deciding factor for me would be cost and which arrival or departure time was best for my plans for that day.

Why a six car Class 390? That cannot be doubled up. It is such a waste of a path. We really cannot afford to keep wasting paths on such tidler trains.

On addition to what I said earlier in this post, if Queens Park were to remain the terminus, how much would 2 x 50m platform extensions cost?

---------

P.S. - I doubt the new trains will be compatible mix coaches with Pendalinos. The most straight forward way to lengthen the VTWC fleet to 11 coaches would be to turn the 21 x 9 coach units into 14 x 11 coach and 7 x 5 coach. The 5 coach units could then be doubled up and 4 full length units of the new train bought. This would effectively be the same out come although with some issues over first and standard class mix + it would leave a 5 coach Pendalino left over.

 

[MK Tom]

I wonder if QP will become ''London Queens Park'' if it starts being used as a terminus.

 

[route:oxford]

I wonder if QP will become ''London Queens Park'' if it starts being used as a terminus.

Probably the same day as Kensington (Olympia) becomes London Kensington (Olympia)...

Maybe "Not London" might be useful again.

 

[northwichcat]

Probably the same day as Kensington (Olympia) becomes London Kensington (Olympia)...

Maybe "Not London" might be useful again.

Well up here we have Hale station in the system as Hale (Manchester) just to ensure it's not confused with Tottenham Hale, despite Hale being 30 minutes journey time from Manchester! Logically if it's that really necessary to not just have it in the system as Hale it should be Hale (Altrincham) or Hale (Greater Manchester) not Hale (Manchester.)

 

[route:oxford]

Well up here we have Hale station in the system as Hale (Manchester) just to ensure it's not confused with Tottenham Hale, despite Hale being 30 minutes journey time from Manchester! Logically if it's that really necessary to not just have it in the system as Hale it should be Hale (Altrincham) or Hale (Greater Manchester) not Hale (Manchester.)

I'm not sure of the area. Is there a potential class issue between Hale & Altrincham?

In the olden days, there was often a limited number of characters available on computer systems so Hale (Greater Manchester) may well have appeared on systems simply as Hale (Greater - which would have been just as easily confused with Greater London

 

[Aldaniti]

Three words: About bloody time!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Unless you need to access the immediate Euston/KGX area or the City, I would suggest that Queens Park is a better London terminus than Euston. A trip on the Bakerloo line from Queens Park to Oxford Circus is more pleasant than a trip on the Victoria line from Euston to Oxford Circus. There is also no need to navigate your way through hordes of people and descend multiple escalators before you can even board the tube.

Still, it's a shame that the terminus isn't Willesden Junction, which provides better connections with London Overground (and is especially useful for passengers needing to access south / west London, who currently need to double-back via Euston). I understand that there aren't WCML platforms at the station, but what happened to those (admittedly very speculative) proposals by London Travelwatch to (re)-install WCML platforms at Willesden Junction? The Watford/Harrow/Wembey/Willesden portion of the WCML is a complete mess for local journeys, requiring as many as three changes for journeys of just a few miles.

I'm sure what you say is correct, but there's one large flaw there in that not everyone's onward journey is by Tube. Only around 50% of those arriving at Euston use the Tube for their onward journey. Rail/Bus/Taxi is around 23% and Walking is 20%. Whether a full 50% of those using this service would find the Tube more convenient from Queens Park is, I would suggest, questionable. The other problem is the almost complete lack of facilities at Queens Park, not even toilets. I wonder if any are planned? When people arrive at Euston at least there is a large choice of facilities, especially if you arrive from an early-finishing meeting which I often do. And when the WCML goes belly up, well, you get the drift. I'm going to stick with my gut feeling; if the service runs to Queens Park it will fail (within 2-3 years), if it runs to Euston I rather suspect it will be a huge success.

 

[Jonfun]

Well up here we have Hale station in the system as Hale (Manchester) just to ensure it's not confused with Tottenham Hale, despite Hale being 30 minutes journey time from Manchester! Logically if it's that really necessary to not just have it in the system as Hale it should be Hale (Altrincham) or Hale (Greater Manchester) not Hale (Manchester.)

I was under the impression it was to prevent confusion with Hayle rather than Tottenham Hale, although I suppose that's the case too.

 

[Class 170101]

Journey times Queen's Park to Oxford Circus via Bakerloo Line or via London Euston seem to be similar. I would suggest that Euston even as a building site will still be a better station than Queen's Park to interchange at, in terms of surrounding environment etc.

Remember also that any trains starting or terminating at Queen's Park will only be there for a couple of minutes at best so a rush to board and disembark - not exactly a good recipe for good timekeeping where the largest number of people will either board or alight.

Would running trains to St Pancras not be a better option during HS2 construction? (or if fitted with DC equipment London Waterloo?)

 

[The Planner]

They will be at Queens Park for a good 4 or 5 minutes, as for other destinations, I have no doubt they looked at it when developing the plans and considered it unsuitable.