Alstom Class 321 Hydrogen 'Breeze' Updates & Discussion

[DB]

Maybe distributing the traction motors throughout rather than one coach? Should help with acceleration.

Think that'd mena replacing the bogies on all the trailer cars, which seems unlikely.

Unless there was a problem with that particular one and they are going to use a motor car from another set?

 

[Energy]

Think that'd mena replacing the bogies on all the trailer cars, which seems unlikely.

You could salvage the bogies from the motor car but it would be unlikely and easier to just drop the trailer car.

Unless there was a problem with that particular one and they are going to use a motor car from another set?

Probably, it is the prototype one.

 

[Neptune]

Surely if it is going to be hydrogen powered then the motor car is the sensible one to scrap (as it is the centre coach with the pantograph).

 

[DB]

Surely if it is going to be hydrogen powered then the motor car is the sensible one to scrap (as it is the centre coach with the pantograph).

So what's actually going to make the wheels go round without any motors?

 

[Bikeman78]

So what's actually going to make the wheels go round without any motors?

Powered by its own sense of self satisfaction? I might have got that quote wrong. It's off The Simpsons.

 

[Energy]

So what's actually going to make the wheels go round without any motors?

Maybe they are just hoping it is always going downhill and never needs to go back up said hill.

 

[ashkeba]

Maybe they are just hoping it is always going downhill and never needs to go back up said hill.

Not enough railway networks were designed by disciples of MC Escher. They would use far less energy, but you might sometimes have to travel the long way round a loop.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Surely if it is going to be hydrogen powered then the motor car is the sensible one to scrap (as it is the centre coach with the pantograph).

No. I believe the Breeze concept uses the 25kV to power the unit and charge the batteries whilst under the OLE, then the hydrogen fuel cell supplies the power away from the OLE as well as keeping the batteries topped up. AIUI the motor car in the Breeze (ex class 321) is an essential part of the concept. Perhaps the motor car from 321448 was considered unsuitable hence scrapping, and the motor car from 321437 providing the new Breeze motor car conversion maybe.

 

[Kingspanner]

Those of you with safety concerns about hydrogen (and time on your hands) might be interested in signing up for this free conference sponsored by the HSE
See the agenda for the Thursday here

https://www.hsl.gov.uk/safe-net-zer...il&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=

Registration here

https://safenetzero.evessiocloud.com/live/en/page/home

The above are links to the HSE page about a conference called Safe Net Zero 2021 - Hydrogen and to a free registration page.

 

[Roger B]

Seems to have gone very quiet lately! Just wondering if there's update on progress? Is anyone aware of plans, key dates, etc? Many thanks

 

[simon7929]

Three coaches went in to Lackenby last year. Went past a few weeks ago. All the doors were shut. This photo is not mine. Taken by somebody last year.

 

[The_Train]

Carriage 78157 from 321437 has departed Alstom (photted yesterday coming out of Widnes), on a low loader to Booths for scrapping. I was under the impression this unit was part of the project so maybe it has just been used for parts retrieval?

Also seen it suggested that 321448 has become the first unit to complete conversion, although my records had this one down as being at Lackenby (so I guess is the unit shown in the above photo) so no clue how true this info is.

And finally, I've not read through this thread (tut tut, I know) but I have it down as the following being listed for conversion if anyone can confirm:
321408, 321431, 321439, 321443, 321444, 321445 & 321448

 

[507021]

Carriage 78157 from 321437 has departed Alstom (photted yesterday coming out of Widnes), on a low loader to Booths for scrapping. I was under the impression this unit was part of the project so maybe it has just been used for parts retrieval?

Also seen it suggested that 321448 has become the first unit to complete conversion, although my records had this one down as being at Lackenby (so I guess is the unit shown in the above photo) so no clue how true this info is.

And finally, I've not read through this thread (tut tut, I know) but I have it down as the following being listed for conversion if anyone can confirm:
321408, 321431, 321439, 321443, 321444, 321445 & 321448

As far as I know, all of the 321s which still exist are earmarked for potential future use as 600s or freight units.

 

[option]

I wonder if biofuels may end up being the main alternative for awkward lines where battery or electrification isn't possible. Particularly recycled cooking oils. McDonalds already run their distribution network on recycled cooking oil. It'll probably be more expensive than diesel is today, but a bimode unit might be a cost effective way of doing it.

Recycled used vegetable oils + hydrogen = HVO

Crown HVO Fuel Supplier

Looking for a HVO Fuel Supplier? Get Hydrotreated Vegetable Oil, a renewable, FAME-free & fossil-free drop-in replacement for diesel delivered nationwide

www.crownoil.co.uk

It can be transported using existing diesel transport infrastructure, & used in the same engines. (construction equipment, trucks, boats, etc)
Used oils have to be collected/properly disposed of anyway, so there's a supply available already.

So, there is another customer for hydrogen.

 

[samuelmorris]

I rather hope we don't just stop at biodiesel and call it a day. While it's better for air quality, to my knowledge, CO2 and particulate emissions are little different with biodiesel compared to the original. Environmentally it's a baby step compared to hydrogen or electrification.

 

[Class360/1]

I rather hope we don't just stop at biodiesel and call it a day. While it's better for air quality, to my knowledge, CO2 and particulate emissions are little different with biodiesel compared to the original. Environmentally it's a baby step compared to hydrogen or electrification.

I agree, it would be a massive shame for us to stop at hvo

 

[DerekC]

The overall carbon footprint of biofuel depends hugely on how you create it. There are research projects ongoing which aim to make it from waste products such as straw. If you could do that then it would compare very favourably with hydrogen made by electrolysis, for example. And it is, of course, much easier to transport and store. However you do still have NOx and particulates emissions to cope with.

 

[Meerkat]

The overall carbon footprint of biofuel depends hugely on how you create it. There are research projects ongoing which aim to make it from waste products such as straw. If you could do that then it would compare very favourably with hydrogen made by electrolysis, for example. And it is, of course, much easier to transport and store. However you do still have NOx and particulates emissions to cope with.

A lot of these biofuel sources sound rather small scale - how much unneeded straw is there?!
As a cynic it all sounds a bit like they get promoted to justify not sorting out better things, or to justify carrying on running/producing internal combustion engines (the airline industry being the worst for this kind of bluster). ie similar to the DfT electrification procrastination

 

[The Ham]

A lot of these biofuel sources sound rather small scale - how much unneeded straw is there?!
As a cynic it all sounds a bit like they get promoted to justify not sorting out better things, or to justify carrying on running/producing internal combustion engines (the airline industry being the worst for this kind of bluster). ie similar to the DfT electrification procrastination

Indeed, likewise the best use of hydrogen isn't using it in cars or trains but rather to use it to create electricity to run trains

 

[AM9]

The overall carbon footprint of biofuel depends hugely on how you create it. There are research projects ongoing which aim to make it from waste products such as straw. If you could do that then it would compare very favourably with hydrogen made by electrolysis, for example. And it is, of course, much easier to transport and store. However you do still have NOx and particulates emissions to cope with.

Using 'waste' materials to generate fuel/energy sounds like a wonderful idea, provided that the level of genuine waste exceeds that required for the amounty of energy required. Once such a scheme becomes any sort of success, the pressure to not create the waste in the first place is off, and then any benefits of reducing the overall carbon footprint start to shrink. There's mention upthread of INEOS offering hydrogen as a waste product from some of its petrochemical activities. Creating any dependence on that waste product merely validates their original manufacturing carbon footprint and potentially encourages its enlargemennt.

 

[Cowley]

Has anyone heard about any recent updates on this project?

 

[Invincible]

Has anyone heard about any recent updates on this project?

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet

New co-operation agreement aims to provide an initial fleet of 10 new hydrogen trains for UK

www.alstom.com

Thought they were exploring new build Aventras instead?

There's been no update if an order for the hydrogen powered Aventras has been placed?

 

[Cowley]

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet

New co-operation agreement aims to provide an initial fleet of 10 new hydrogen trains for UK

www.alstom.com

Thought they were exploring new build Aventras instead?

There's been no update if an order for the hydrogen powered Aventras has been placed?

You’re probably right. I was asking for someone else actually.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Then can one assume then that the project is dead as far as Cl. 321s are concerned and all the stored units will go for scrap?

 

[Class360/1]

Then can one assume then that the project is dead as far as Cl. 321s are concerned and all the stored units will go for scrap?

No, a new battery project exists for the renatus units

 

[Invincible]

From a a press release the battery technology will be supplied by Vivarail, so will be similar to the Vivarail trial at on the Ealing - Greenford line (if it ever gets going)?

Three coaches went in to Lackenby last year. Went past a few weeks ago. All the doors were shut. This photo is not mine. Taken by somebody last year.View attachment 96155

So is the Eversholt/Alstom ‘Breeze’ still there, said to have further testing on Tees Valley 2023, if this document is still vaild?

https://hytunnel.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/11-AET-MJL-260420-01-AET-Presentation-Hytunnel-Stakeholders-Workshop-issue-1-ok.pdf

then maybe replaced by the 10 new build Hydrogen powered Aventras (with battery backup?)?

Interesting to see the video of the 614 tests by Angel, who seem one step ahead of Eversholt.

 

[trainlogger]

321448 (this was the one pictured at Lackenby) was scrapped at Booths in late 2021/early 2022.

321437 (think this was also earmarked for the project?) scrapped at Booths in July 2021.