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Alstom Class 321 Hydrogen 'Breeze' Updates & Discussion

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Meerkat

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Is hydrogen safe for trains that go through tunnels? I believe the German lines using it don’t have tunnels.
in the open air it could be better than diesel as I assume it goes upward and burns off in the explosion rather than forming a burning pool under the crash and burning in contact with everything.
 
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James James

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Is hydrogen safe for trains that go through tunnels? I believe the German lines using it don’t have tunnels.
in the open air it could be better than diesel as I assume it goes upward and burns off in the explosion rather than forming a burning pool under the crash and burning in contact with everything.
Coradia iLint: can traverse tunnels up to 5km

However I suspect that 5km is based on TSI or EU standards, and lack of e.g. internal firewalls (which are apparently required for tunnels > 5km, so that you can close off part of the train and keep going), as opposed to being in any way related to the hydrogen topic.
 

NotATrainspott

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For those routes that won’t get electrification, stay with diesel. The impact of the emissions will be so small as to be irrelevant in the overall picture. The battery/hydrogen/bionic duckweed alternatives are markedly less efficient in terms of practicality, usability and cost.

You can't be so sure about this. Fossil fuels aren't an immutable part of the energy landscape. We use diesel because the technology and fuel supplies are readily available. Once most major diesel consumers switch over to battery electric, that will dramatically change the economics of using diesel for the remaining ones. It is entirely possible that certain diesel use-cases will be forced to switch to another solution, even if that other solution is actually worse, just because the future of using diesel would be worse still. Sure, in the short term, if the demand for petrol and diesel goes down as other vehicles electrify it's possible the supply/demand curve will make diesel cheaper temporarily. However, no one owning or running petrol/diesel infrastructure (e.g. oil refineries) is going to continue doing it if the scale and their profitability are gone. Once those economies of scale are gone, the prices are going to rise, which will trigger further shifts away from fossil fuels, and so on.

We'll probably see this happen first in Norway, ironically. They're far further along the electrification process than ourselves, to the point where normal petrol stations are ripping out pumps and replacing them with chargers (not just adding some chargers to existing parking spaces). While they may have plenty of crude oil, that isn't the same as having plenty of petrol and diesel ready to put into a vehicle tank.

The railway has been through this before with the end of steam traction. Running a railway with steam is about a lot more than just using steam engines. You need the coal bunkers and water tanks and so on spread across the network. Once the network effects die, it becomes uneconomic to use steam. Steam services on the network today are still possible, but are hugely expensive to organise as they need special water and refuelling stops.
 

supervc-10

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I wonder if biofuels may end up being the main alternative for awkward lines where battery or electrification isn't possible. Particularly recycled cooking oils. McDonalds already run their distribution network on recycled cooking oil. It'll probably be more expensive than diesel is today, but a bimode unit might be a cost effective way of doing it.
 

The Ham

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I do suspect that in some areas petrol stations may well close making the nearest one to fill up a few miles away, effectively pushing up the cost of driving by making it so that more travel is required to keep refueling the car.
 

Bletchleyite

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I do suspect that in some areas petrol stations may well close making the nearest one to fill up a few miles away, effectively pushing up the cost of driving by making it so that more travel is required to keep refueling the car.

Always makes me wonder why some people "go out to fill up the car" rather than just stopping at the next one they see when it reaches, say, 1/4 of the tank. I suppose some peoples' commuter journey won't pass one, but they will probably get nearer one at one end.
 

xotGD

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Always makes me wonder why some people "go out to fill up the car" rather than just stopping at the next one they see when it reaches, say, 1/4 of the tank. I suppose some peoples' commuter journey won't pass one, but they will probably get nearer one at one end.
If the item one on your way charges 5p a litre more it is worth making a special trip to a cheaper place.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the item one on your way charges 5p a litre more it is worth making a special trip to a cheaper place.

If you are living on the breadline yes, it is. Otherwise, it's about as worthwhile as going round the supermarkets looking for whether Aldi value beans are 1p cheaper than Lidl value beans, i.e. if you enjoy it as a bit of a game (or just enjoy going for a drive as a thing in itself) go ahead, but otherwise it's a waste of time you could be using to do something more worthwhile.
 

Meerkat

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If the item one on your way charges 5p a litre more it is worth making a special trip to a cheaper place.
And how much does that short trip cost? A cold engine doing two short trips isn’t very efficient.
 

507021

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Is it worth updating the thread's title to reflect their planned Class 600 designation?
 

MarkWiles

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I do suspect that in some areas petrol stations may well close making the nearest one to fill up a few miles away, effectively pushing up the cost of driving by making it so that more travel is required to keep refueling the car.
That's already happened where I live, the village petrol station has closed, leaving the nearest petrol stations as Tywyn (10 miles) or Dolgellau (8 miles). To get to Barmouth's petrol pumps is a 40 mile round trip despite being just a couple of miles across the estuary.

Driving in rural areas takes a lot of planning and forward thinking, something which regularly catches out visitors to the area more used to having petrol virtually on tap.

Coming back to Hydrogen trains, I can see there being potential for hydrogen fuel on something like my local line, the Cambrian. We have a windy coastal location, and a wind farm plus sea water gives the potential for hydrogen generation, although with Cardigan Bay being a special area of conservation interest putting windmills at sea might be an issue. However, there must be a point coming soon when the combination of coastal waters and wind potential must make the hydrogen option more cost effective than it is at the moment, unless battery power really takes off.
 

Wyrleybart

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That's already happened where I live, the village petrol station has closed, leaving the nearest petrol stations as Tywyn (10 miles) or Dolgellau (8 miles). To get to Barmouth's petrol pumps is a 40 mile round trip despite being just a couple of miles across the estuary.

Driving in rural areas takes a lot of planning and forward thinking, something which regularly catches out visitors to the area more used to having petrol virtually on tap.

Coming back to Hydrogen trains, I can see there being potential for hydrogen fuel on something like my local line, the Cambrian. We have a windy coastal location, and a wind farm plus sea water gives the potential for hydrogen generation, although with Cardigan Bay being a special area of conservation interest putting windmills at sea might be an issue. However, there must be a point coming soon when the combination of coastal waters and wind potential must make the hydrogen option more cost effective than it is at the moment, unless battery power really takes off.

Apologies for veering slightly OT but I wonder if the Cambrian might be more useful as a long term battery operation to get rid of diesels. Obviously TfW are currently investing in diesel 196s for the route, but long term development of battery technology might allow 5 minute quick charge loops for say Tywyn, Fairbourne, Barmouth, Penrhyn and Portmadoc. Add in some regeneration to the package.

Optimally there would be hydro electric or tidal electricity generation available, especially considering the three highest mountains in Wales are nearby, so there should be loads of water falling over turbine blades.

I can only see hydrogen as a useful rail traction fuel where it is available on an industrial scale local to the railway.
 

NotATrainspott

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That's already happened where I live, the village petrol station has closed, leaving the nearest petrol stations as Tywyn (10 miles) or Dolgellau (8 miles). To get to Barmouth's petrol pumps is a 40 mile round trip despite being just a couple of miles across the estuary.

Driving in rural areas takes a lot of planning and forward thinking, something which regularly catches out visitors to the area more used to having petrol virtually on tap.

Coming back to Hydrogen trains, I can see there being potential for hydrogen fuel on something like my local line, the Cambrian. We have a windy coastal location, and a wind farm plus sea water gives the potential for hydrogen generation, although with Cardigan Bay being a special area of conservation interest putting windmills at sea might be an issue. However, there must be a point coming soon when the combination of coastal waters and wind potential must make the hydrogen option more cost effective than it is at the moment, unless battery power really takes off.

This is actually a factor in favour of electrification. At absolute minimum, it should be possible to provide a 3 or 7kW charger using a standard domestic power supply. A trickle charge isn't great if you need to fill up during a journey but it would work fine for someone living there who leaves the car parked at home or work for a good portion of the day.

While rural electricity supplies might not be strong enough today for rapid charging, that doesn't mean it'll always be the case. Until recently, rural areas would have had electricity for lighting and appliances but many people will have still relied on fuel for heating and hot water. Combined with the way that their vehicles were powered by petrol or diesel, there wasn't much need to beef up the power supply connections. That's changing now. For one, rural areas are the ones where you've normally got the most ready supply of renewable power. The wires to bring power from a centralised power station to remote rural communities can also be the ones to take power from near those communities and feed it back to the larger urban areas. Micro-renewables mean these connection upgrades will filter down to the level where you can think about connecting up heating and EVs.

Some of the largest institutional supporters of EV rollouts have been electricity companies. That's not surprising if your business is selling electricity - the more EVs there are, the more electricity needs sold. The economics are very much in favour of it because the incremental cost of moving more power by electricity isn't that great. The need to get a critical mass of electricity use was why electric supply seemed to replace coal(gas) for heating until natural gas came about. With natural gas going out of favour, and major improvements to efficiency with things like heat pumps, we'll see that shift back to mass electricity use.

So, what we might well end up with is a position where grid supplies become available in rural areas which aren't available today. Sure, you might not have a substation sitting waiting at Corrour any time soon but you may well have a good supply of electricity in villages like Crianlarich. An electric train charging rapidly won't be as much of a burden for a local grid designed for 100% electric heating.

The consequence of all this being that the niche that hydrogen trains can fill, even in more rural areas, gets narrower still.
 

xotGD

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I can only see hydrogen as a useful rail traction fuel where it is available on an industrial scale local to the railway
Well that's Teesside and Merseyside for a start. Humberside, north east Scotland and others to follow.

I heard it said that the byproduct hydrogen from the chlorine plant at Runcorn is twice as much as would be required for the entire Transport for Wales fleet.
 

edwin_m

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Well that's Teesside and Merseyside for a start. Humberside, north east Scotland and others to follow.

I heard it said that the byproduct hydrogen from the chlorine plant at Runcorn is twice as much as would be required for the entire Transport for Wales fleet.
On reading Wikipedia I gather chlorine production uses one of several methods to electroylse salt, and therefore can potentially be powered by renewable energy. However do other processes that generate hydrogen by-product rely on oil or gas as feedstock or fuel? If so they are not carbon neutral unless all the CO2 arising is sequestered. For those processes it may be better in the short term to use hydrogen that would otherwise be flared off, although there are other options such as mixing with the natural gas network. But will the source be available for the lifetime of the trains, and if it isn't then will an alternative such as electrolysis be viable?
 

supervc-10

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This is actually a factor in favour of electrification. At absolute minimum, it should be possible to provide a 3 or 7kW charger using a standard domestic power supply. A trickle charge isn't great if you need to fill up during a journey but it would work fine for someone living there who leaves the car parked at home or work for a good portion of the day.

This is why my parents, who live in rural Wiltshire, are probably going to get an EV before me, living in urban Manchester. They often need two cars, but haven't both gone off on long trips without each other in ages. They're considering a used Leaf as a second car, for things like going to the supermarket etc.
 

xotGD

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On reading Wikipedia I gather chlorine production uses one of several methods to electroylse salt, and therefore can potentially be powered by renewable energy. However do other processes that generate hydrogen by-product rely on oil or gas as feedstock or fuel? If so they are not carbon neutral unless all the CO2 arising is sequestered. For those processes it may be better in the short term to use hydrogen that would otherwise be flared off, although there are other options such as mixing with the natural gas network. But will the source be available for the lifetime of the trains, and if it isn't then will an alternative such as electrolysis be viable?
There are at least 4 projects under development for the large scale production of 'blue' hydrogen with CO2 capture. In parallel, electrolysis based hydrogen production is also being implemented and scaled up. Yes, it all comes at a cost, but that is where the government comes in.
 

507021

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321437 and 321448 have been seen at Edge Hill.

The two prototypes for Class 600 conversion?
 

Wyrleybart

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321437 and 321448 have been seen at Edge Hill.

The two prototypes for Class 600 conversion?

I saw a driving car from 321448 being low loadered up the M6 north a few weeks ago.
Was under the impression it was going to Alstom at Widnes, but maybe Edge Hill is temporary storage until the shop floor is clear of 175s and 390s
 

Class 170101

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321437 was moved from Edge Hill to Widnes by rail on the 23rd of November, as 5Q12 Edge Hill - Widnes Transport Tech. https://flic.kr/p/2k9J4Dw

Note that it has been reduced to 3 cars in length.
But surely we need that 4th carriage worth of capacity as part of the Class 321 current carrying capacity will be given over to a compartment for equipment and hydrogen storage.
 

Roast Veg

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But surely we need that 4th carriage worth of capacity as part of the Class 321 current carrying capacity will be given over to a compartment for equipment and hydrogen storage.
No good if the train is too heavy to get itself moving though surely? Better to double up the units to six car if you can instead.
 

Mollman

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But surely we need that 4th carriage worth of capacity as part of the Class 321 current carrying capacity will be given over to a compartment for equipment and hydrogen storage.
It's meant to replace 2-car 156s on Saltburn services so 2.5 cars should be fine. Hopefully they will keep the 4th car just encase.
 

hwl

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But surely we need that 4th carriage worth of capacity as part of the Class 321 current carrying capacity will be given over to a compartment for equipment and hydrogen storage.
Everything to do with Hydrogen is very busy so they need to lose as much weight as possible to keep the volume and cost down. It is worth remember a hydrogen MU is a (small) battery EMU with fuel cell and hydrogen storage so the smaller the better for the time being.
 

Class 170101

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Everything to do with Hydrogen is very busy so they need to lose as much weight as possible to keep the volume and cost down. It is worth remember a hydrogen MU is a (small) battery EMU with fuel cell and hydrogen storage so the smaller the better for the time being.
including passenger carrying capacity by the sounds of it.
 

59CosG95

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The latest edition of Today's Railways reports that the TS from 321437 (72017) and, rather surprisingly, the MS from 321448 (63104) have been moved by road for disposal at Booth's Rotherham.
321448 (or 3/4 of it) has now been moved to an undisclosed warehouse in Lackenby for tests.
 

samuelmorris

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If it was the trailer coach, sure. But the unit isn’t going anywhere without the motor coach.
Is the work on the 600s so extensive that perhaps the motor coach is no longer going to be in the middle? There must be a reason for binning the motor coach...
 

D365

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Is the work on the 600s so extensive that perhaps the motor coach is no longer going to be in the middle? There must be a reason for binning the motor coach...
I'd be interested in knowing how they plan on driving the unit if the motor coach is being binned! Perhaps it's just 448, being as it is the Renatus prototype...
 
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