Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale Line

[Bletchleyite]

Again, no knowledge - is Tilbrook the industrial park close by?

It is yes. There are also offices in Caldecotte. It's really misnamed, it's not in the village it's named after - a bit Dent-like. Arguably it could do with being renamed to "Tilbrook for Caldecotte" or similar.

 

[py_megapixel]

It is yes. There are also offices in Caldecotte. It's really misnamed, it's not in the village it's named after - a bit Dent-like. Arguably it could do with being renamed to "Tilbrook for Caldecotte" or similar.

Would that cause confusion with Caldicot?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would that cause confusion with Caldicot?

Given that it's nowhere near Caldicot, I doubt it. Remember you can go from Hope to Hope...

That would probably be a good reason to use "Tilbrook for Caldecotte" rather than "Caldecotte for Tilbrook" which would be more accurate, though.

 

[Haywain]

Remember you can go from Hope to Hope.

Or from Millbrook to Millbrook!

 

[Trainbike46]

Given that it's nowhere near Caldicot, I doubt it. Remember you can go from Hope to Hope...

That would probably be a good reason to use "Tilbrook for Caldecotte" rather than "Caldecotte for Tilbrook" which would be more accurate, though.

And if it does look like a problem, add county names to the end

 

[Peter Sarf]

...........................


(Off topic, but has anyone else noticed how the default font size on this forum is, for some reason, not one of the ones you can select from the menu? It's quite annoying if you write something in a larger font and then want to change back)

What you can try is copy a bit of the text that is in the font you want. Then paste it where you want it and completely edit the new bit with what you really want.

On the subject - I suppose no solution is going to be arrived at very soon whilst the railways are heavily focused on the new winter of discontent "timetable". So we cannot read anything into progress, or lack thereof, regarding 230s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or from Millbrook to Millbrook!

Coincidentally another station that probably isn’t necessary by usage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coincidentally another station that probably isn’t necessary by usage.

Before deciding that stations aren't necessary, there really should be investigation regarding the construction of one or more "eco towns" centred on the line, in preference to blindly adding more car-dependent suburbs to Bedford or Milton Keynes. So rather than closing it, make it more useful.

(I believe the 5-station proposal, while not perfect, does in part revolve around that).

 

[Flinn Reed]

Since WMR gained some more 172s from Chiltern (which wouldn't have been part of the original fleet plan at the start of the franchise) - would there not be 1-2 spares now that could be used on the Marston Vale line?

 

[bramling]

PRM Pacer 144012 is stored by Network Rail, isn't it? But that is the microest fleet, of 1.

I seem to remember this unit went for scrap to Sims at some point in recent months, so not available unfortunately.

Hastings Diesels unit would fit the bill, though doesn’t solve the problem of who drives it.

 

[Kite159]

Complete crayonist idea, how about simply putting wires up on the line & extend some of the stations, to allow 80 metre stock to call (ie a single 350)
The stations with little demand (like Fenny Stratford & Kempton Hardwick) could be closed.

Removes a diesel island (not sure how much wiring there is at the Bedford end but I'm sure the wires extend at the Bletchley end due to the depot. It's the sort of line which could be run with buses for X months to do the work in one go.

Also has a benefit of allowing the EMR 360s to reach Northampton under their own power to avoid needing to be hauled via London behind a diesel loco.

 

[A0wen]

Complete crayonist idea, how about simply putting wires up on the line & extend some of the stations, to allow 80 metre stock to call (ie a single 350)
The stations with little demand (like Fenny Stratford & Kempton Hardwick) could be closed.

Removes a diesel island (not sure how much wiring there is at the Bedford end but I'm sure the wires extend at the Bletchley end due to the depot. It's the sort of line which could be run with buses for X months to do the work in one go.

Also has a benefit of allowing the EMR 360s to reach Northampton under their own power to avoid needing to be hauled via London behind a diesel loco.

A 350 would be overkill for the line given its passenger numbers - they do far more good on the WCML. Even a 313 would have been excessive for the Marston Vale (MV) most of the time.

It's not as simply as extending the platform lengths - you've got level crossings in close proximity and signalling all of which would need to be moved for longer trains. A heck of a lot of money for a lightly used line.

On the 360s - in theory they could be diesel dragged over the MV now, but it would need a run round at Bletchley which I guess is the reason it doesn't happen at present. But the fact there would be wires would only be any good if the unit was in a condition to be run under its own power and was cleared to run on the line under its own power, which may be the reason they are dragged.

 

[zwk500]

Complete crayonist idea, how about simply putting wires up on the line & extend some of the stations, to allow 80 metre stock to call (ie a single 350)
The stations with little demand (like Fenny Stratford & Kempton Hardwick) could be closed.

Removes a diesel island (not sure how much wiring there is at the Bedford end but I'm sure the wires extend at the Bletchley end due to the depot. It's the sort of line which could be run with buses for X months to do the work in one go.

Also has a benefit of allowing the EMR 360s to reach Northampton under their own power to avoid needing to be hauled via London behind a diesel loco.

It's not completely mad - At Bedford the bay is wired and the goods loop is wired almost to St Johns for TL shunting, so there are supports in place to hang the registration arms over the U&D Bletchley, so the junction tie-ins wouldn't be too bad. The bay is 80m long, so may need work to accept a 350. Bletchley end, the connection up the branch to the sidings is wired, so again a relatively straightforward tie-in there. Platform 6 is 120m long, so no problems there. Power wise would presumably be easy as well, given the minimal demand.
There are some problems - 350 SDO is only available on a whole-unit basis, so you'd need to extend every platform to take a 350. I count 12 overbridges of various types and ages that would need to be assessed for rebuild - About half look either clear or relatively simply to sort out. However the big problem would be the number of level crossings, I count 12. Any changes required to make them safe with wires could well blow the budget.

So it's not totally out there, like building a new line from Wolverton via Olney to Bedford, but it isn't going to be a quick win, and it's going to cost a lot to address the lack of investment in previous years. I suspect electrification will need to wait for EWR to come along, either as part of the project or following after it's done the enabling works like Signalling, Platforms, etc.

 

[A0wen]

So it's not totally out there, like building a new line from Wolverton via Olney to Bedford, but it isn't going to be a quick win, and it's going to cost a lot to address the lack of investment in previous years. I suspect electrification will need to wait for EWR to come along, either as part of the project or following after it's done the enabling works like Signalling, Platforms, etc.

Bit in bold - who's been touting that bit of madness ? An absolutely crazy suggestion which would only be made worse by suggesting using the old Newport Pagnell line as part of the route. ...

 

[skyhigh]

PRM Pacer 144012 is stored by Network Rail, isn't it? But that is the microest fleet, of 1.

I believe that one is stored at Worksop but I may be wrong. It probably won't be in the best condition for service if it still is around.

I seem to remember this unit went for scrap to Sims at some point in recent months, so not available unfortunately.

Yes, it was scrapped earlier this year. And given the state it was in when it left service, it would have been cheaper to PRM a 153 or two than bring it back after months of cold storage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since WMR gained some more 172s from Chiltern (which wouldn't have been part of the original fleet plan at the start of the franchise) - would there not be 1-2 spares now that could be used on the Marston Vale line?

172s aren't presently cleared for the line (they can cover all of it but only with stepboards removed), but if the 230s are to be scrapped then doing the work to clear them and move a few S boards would probably be the most sensible option to me. Between them and the 196s (once the latter are all in service) they can probably take up the slack.

Complete crayonist idea, how about simply putting wires up on the line & extend some of the stations, to allow 80 metre stock to call (ie a single 350)
The stations with little demand (like Fenny Stratford & Kempton Hardwick) could be closed.

Fenny has a 76m platform, so as long as it was OK having the back cab hanging off then an 80m unit would be fine. It wouldn't fit most other platforms, though, and may obstruct level crossings, so I think the EWR "5 station" proposal would need to be implemented first. I do think the idea of wiring it (and East West Rail) is a good one, though, as the awkwardness of a diesel island could be removed, and there's more potential to do special running in emergencies, e.g. if the WCML or MML was knackered, get a shuttle of 4-car 350s or 360s running non stop to shuttle passengers to the other one with buses doing the intermediates.

I would say it has a stronger case than St Albans, which is wired!

 

[Falcon1200]

Is there anything in the heritage sector that could be drafted in short term to keep things running while a long term solution is delivered.

A West Coast Railways Oxenholme/Windermere style solution? After all, 2-coach loco-hauled push-pull trains have operated the Marston Vale line before! However, with apologies to the locals, the line and the area do not have the same touristic attractiveness and therefore political importance as the Lake District.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A West Coast Railways Oxenholme/Windermere style solution? After all, 2-coach loco-hauled push-pull trains have operated the Marston Vale line before! However, with apologies to the locals, the line and the area do not have the same touristic attractiveness and therefore political importance as the Lake District.

This was done before the line was resignalled, but now would result in the train hanging over level crossings while stopped at some stations, so LHCS is probably out.

Can the Hastings DEMU be reduced to 2-car? That's the only mainline certified preserved DMU I can think of.

 

[zwk500]

This was done before the line was resignalled, but now would result in the train hanging over level crossings while stopped at some stations, so LHCS is probably out.

Can the Hastings DEMU be reduced to 2-car? That's the only mainline certified preserved DMU I can think of.

If we're at this stage, why don't you just get Caroline and a 37?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we're at this stage, why don't you just get Caroline and a 37?

I'd pay a lot more than normal fare for a ride on that!

 

[Falcon1200]

This was done before the line was resignalled, but now would result in the train hanging over level crossings while stopped at some stations, so LHCS is probably out.

That's a pity, thanks for the info.

 

[zwk500]

I'd pay a lot more than normal fare for a ride on that!

The 'Manager's refreshments' wouldn't be included

 

[david1212]

Can the Hastings DEMU be reduced to 2-car? That's the only mainline certified preserved DMU I can think of.

Technically given pre-computer technology probably. If there were a couple of certified driving trailers two sets could be made. I'm unsure now if Hastings Diesels have three working power cars.

Keeping with heritage what is the state of play of the units that the Swanage Railway proposed to run to Wareham? I seem to recall strings attached limiting then to this section. Similarly NYMR stock used to Whitby.

 

[zwk500]

Bit in bold - who's been touting that bit of madness ? An absolutely crazy suggestion which would only be made worse by suggesting using the old Newport Pagnell line as part of the route. ...

Nobody. Because it's absolutely bat**** insane.

 

[hooverboy]

If we're at this stage, why don't you just get Caroline and a 37?

Well it's been done before on marston vale.It used to be top and tail 31''s.
Let's have a bit of a laugh and sequester 2 hst power cars and a trailer open!That will go like stink! not that it will ever happen.

in all honesty the best solution is for LNWR and EWR to just bite the bullet and extend whatever platforms they can with mezzanine.Then run standard 2*23m units of some sort.
The ideal solution is to wire it and run a surplus emu,even a 313.If Abbey line can get funding for a 319 snd overheads there is definitely more upside for marston vale

 

[mike57]

Can the Hastings DEMU be reduced to 2-car?

Well some started life a 2 car units, power car and driving trailer, and in the Southern Region (and Railway pre 1948) there was a logical 'everything will work with everything' policy which certainly resulted in all sorts of odd formations over the years to meet varying needs so there is a precedent, but I dont know if todays railway would allow it.

Another thought would be a single 37 (or something using the same MU system) and a single driving trailer, simlar to that used on the Cumbrian coast until recently without the intermediate trailers. I know 'light engines' are often speed restricted due to lack of brake power but I cant imagine speed being an issue on this route. From what I can remember when I travelled on them between Sellafield and Carlisle a couple of times they have window bars and some basic form of door interlocking, but I may be wrong on door interlocking, memories are hazy.

 

[43096]

Well some started life a 2 car units, power car and driving trailer, and in the Southern Region (and Railway pre 1948) there was a logical 'everything will work with everything' policy which certainly resulted in all sorts of odd formations over the years to meet varying needs so there is a precedent, but I dont know if todays railway would allow it.

No Hastings units started life as 2 car units.

 

[Ted633]

The Hastings diesel can be reduced to two cars, however would have to be two motor coaches so capacity would be reduced somewhat. Should be able to keep to timings fairly easily though with 1000hp!

 

[zwk500]

Another thought would be a single 37 (or something using the same MU system) and a single driving trailer, simlar to that used on the Cumbrian coast until recently without the intermediate trailers. I know 'light engines' are often speed restricted due to lack of brake power but I cant imagine speed being an issue on this route. From what I can remember when I travelled on them between Sellafield and Carlisle a couple of times they have window bars and some basic form of door interlocking, but I may be wrong on door interlocking, memories are hazy.

Weren't the Cumbrian Coast sets top & tailed? You're certainly right that the 75mph restriction on less than load 4 wouldn't be a problem on the Marston Vale, even if the linespeed is higher the stops are frequent enough. However where you get a DBSO from is another question. LSL will be making more money from using theirs on charters than on the Marston Vale.

Maybe somebody can just find a Unimog and drag the 230s?

 

[Haywain]

Maybe somebody can just find a Unimog and drag the 230s?

Even trailing vehicles have to be maintained, and the owner would have to agree to such a use.