Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale Line

[andythebrave]

An interesting question is whether you could do a useful half hourly skip stop type service using three units? That would be quite an upgrade as it would also speed end to end journeys.

I reckon all trains would do Bedford St John's, Woburn Sands and Ridgmont plus one other (I know who'd want it to be Fenny ), but you could alternate the others while maintaining through capacity.

Like the idea of half hourly but would need both Fenny and Lidlington in the mix. Indeed just missing Aspley, Millbrook and Kempston would inconvenience almost no-one and enable enough down time.
**gets back down from fanciful wishful thinking cloud to an unhealthy dose of reality**
On a more realistic level, I wonder if I'll ride a train here again before I get my bus pass (not that there's much use for that here).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like the idea of half hourly but would need both Fenny and Lidlington in the mix. Indeed just missing Aspley, Millbrook and Kempston would inconvenience almost no-one and enable enough down time.

You mean a fast and a slow? I think you'd have trouble doing half hourly clockface that way with three units, it'd be an off-pattern timetable.

I think it would have to be 4 or 6 stations only getting hourly so you could miss 2/3 of them each half hour. You could probably chuck in Bow Brickhill to make the 4.

 

[Falcon1200]

Indeed just missing Aspley, Millbrook and Kempston would inconvenience almost no-one and enable enough down time.

And perhaps justify closing those stations altogether to get East/West Rail up and running?!!
(I don't know enough about the line to say whether that would be the right thing to do)

 

[Bletchleyite]

And perhaps justify closing those stations altogether to get East/West Rail up and running?!!
(I don't know enough about the line to say whether that would be the right thing to do)

There's a 5 station plan for EWR which while not universally popular is better thought through than just closing some.

 

[DarloRich]

There's a 5 station plan for EWR which while not universally popular is better thought through than just closing some.

The 5 station plan has gone down like an excreta butty with us poor saps who wan to actually use the service but we dont seem to count.

And perhaps justify closing those stations altogether to get East/West Rail up and running?!!
(I don't know enough about the line to say whether that would be the right thing to do)

I would rather you didnt................................. ( the right thing to do would be to, you know, run a service!)

There are plenty of 153s at Ely.
Lock out the toilet, as the journey is so short and rail replacement coaches do not provide a toilet either.
Minor modifications would still be required to meet accessibility regulations, but overall costs should be minimal.
Driver training could commence with sufficient stock to operate an improved half hourly frequency rather than the current hourly interval service, helping to spread loading and offer an improved frequency which will provide better connectivity.

A sensible idea but requires one thing: Cash. DfT wont approve it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 5 station plan has gone down like an excreta butty with us poor saps who wan to actually use the service but we dont seem to count.

I think a modified version of it (which may perhaps involve 6 stations) has potential value. I've discussed options on that thread. Some of the stations could be substituted, e.g. a decent foot- and cycle path alongside the line from Apsley Guise to Woburn Sands could have more value than Apsley Guise station does.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think a modified version of it (which may perhaps involve 6 stations) has potential value. I've discussed options on that thread. Some of the stations could be substituted, e.g. a decent foot- and cycle path alongside the line from Apsley Guise to Woburn Sands could have more value than Apsley Guise station does.

What about Aspley Guise?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can be converted with a promise to keep my station open

There are several that could close but I would be very suspicious of using the published ticket sales data to do that. As you will know the whole line has often been " free to play" in the past.

I'd certainly not use the post-230 ticket sales data for it, because the slow doors have meant that pretty much no fares were ever taken. Those going to Bedford would probably have to pay when they reached the gateline. Bletchley gateline is almost always open now.

Indeed I wonder if the popularity of singles from Kempston Hardwick at Bedford gateline might well account for its increase in usage in the figures. There is a housing estate growing up not far from there, but I've not in recent years noticed lots of people actually using it! There is a TVM there so they could in theory PF, but I don't know if they do, and of course there's always the "option" to buy it on your phone knowing full well you won't be checked. On the other hand, St John's is not gated and so probably has most non-payers alighting there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can be converted with a promise to keep my station open

There are several that could close but I would be very suspicious of using the published ticket sales data to do that. As you will know the whole line has often been " free to play" in the past. it is why I don't trust the published passenger figures for the whole line.

The counter-point to that is "if a significant proportion of a station's users are the "pay when challenged" type, what's the incentive for the operator to improve or retain service?"

On the Apsley/Aspley thing, Aspley is an area just south of Huddersfield town centre. It doesn't have a station or a railway though, just the canal basin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The counter-point to that is "if a significant proportion of a station's users are the "pay when challenged" type, what's the incentive for the operator to improve or retain service?"

True, but with a 2-car DMU it is easy for the guard to provide that challenge. North West guards were always good at keeping on top of both revenue and doors on a 2-car, even on local services like the Athertons and Marples. The 230s were an issue due to slow door operation, but hopefully the 150s will be able to solve that. (Do the Northern 150s have guard panels at the passenger doors?)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

True, but with a 2-car DMU it is easy for the guard to provide that challenge. North West guards were always good at keeping on top of both revenue and doors on a 2-car, even on local services like the Athertons and Marples. The 230s were an issue due to slow door operation, but hopefully the 150s will be able to solve that. (Do the Northern 150s have guard panels at the passenger doors?)

I think they do, but I don't ride them much at the moment so can't recall if they did. I was on one on Saturday (a 2-car /2 from Huddersfield to Shepley) but was too busy feeling miserable about impending relegation to observe the guard doing their duty!

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed I wonder if the popularity of singles from Kempston Hardwick at Bedford gateline might well account for its increase in usage in the figures. There is a housing estate growing up not far from there, but I've not in recent years noticed lots of people actually using it!

Such cynicism

The counter-point to that is "if a significant proportion of a station's users are the "pay when challenged" type, what's the incentive for the operator to improve or retain service?"

The counter, counter point is surely to say in that case why bother doing any revenue? Nothing will change unless action is taken to change attitudes.

 

[12LDA28C]

On the Apsley/Aspley thing, Aspley is an area just south of Huddersfield town centre. It doesn't have a station or a railway though, just the canal basin.

Not sure what the relevance of this is? Aspley Guise is a village in Bedfordshire and most certainly does have a railway, and a station on the Marston Vale line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not sure what the relevance of this is? Aspley Guise is a village in Bedfordshire and most certainly does have a railway, and a station on the Marston Vale line.

Oops! I guess the S and P are switched so often that I'd got it in my head that the "Aps-" spelling was the correct one!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oops! I guess the S and P are switched so often that I'd got it in my head that the "Aps-" spelling was the correct one!

£18.60 if you get it wrong!

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[12LDA28C]

Oops! I guess the S and P are switched so often that I'd got it in my head that the "Aps-" spelling was the correct one!

An easy mistake to make and you're certainly not alone, seemingly people who actually use the line are unaware of the correct spelling too!

 

[craigybagel]

There are plenty of 153s at Ely.
Lock out the toilet, as the journey is so short and rail replacement coaches do not provide a toilet either.
Minor modifications would still be required to meet accessibility regulations, but overall costs should be minimal.

Needs a proper PIS system, not sure how cheap they are

Driver training could commence with sufficient stock to operate an improved half hourly frequency rather than the current hourly interval service, helping to spread loading and offer an improved frequency which will provide better connectivity.

That would require double the number of traincrew to run the service - which would require both LNWR having enough available crew on hand and someone being prepared to pay them.

True, but with a 2-car DMU it is easy for the guard to provide that challenge. North West guards were always good at keeping on top of both revenue and doors on a 2-car, even on local services like the Athertons and Marples. The 230s were an issue due to slow door operation, but hopefully the 150s will be able to solve that. (Do the Northern 150s have guard panels at the passenger doors?)

My understanding is some do, some don't, but that in any case Northern guards aren't permitted to use them. They're not allowed close doors from the front either, keeping them effectively tied to a bungee cord at the back cab. It's says a lot that theyre still much more proactive about revenue than the guards at other TOCs who can dispatch from anywhere on the train, but that's probably getting off topic.....

 

[XAM2175]

They're not allowed close doors from the front either, keeping them effectively tied to a bungee chord at the back cab.

Apologies in advance for the pedantry, but for this purpose it's cord.

 

[185143]

Needs a proper PIS system, not sure how cheap they are

That would require double the number of traincrew to run the service - which would require both LNWR having enough available crew on hand and someone being prepared to pay them.

My understanding is some do, some don't, but that in any case Northern guards aren't permitted to use them. They're not allowed close doors from the front either, keeping them effectively tied to a bungee cord at the back cab. It's says a lot that theyre still much more proactive about revenue than the guards at other TOCs who can dispatch from anywhere on the train, but that's probably getting off topic.....

I can assure you there's execptions both ways!

Been on plenty of Northern services where the guard has been a yo-yo. But been on plenty that have felt like they were DOO.

 

[skyhigh]

(Do the Northern 150s have guard panels at the passenger doors?)

My understanding is some do, some don't, but that in any case Northern guards aren't permitted to use them. They're not allowed close doors from the front either, keeping them effectively tied to a bungee cord at the back cab. It's says a lot that theyre still much more proactive about revenue than the guards at other TOCs who can dispatch from anywhere on the train, but that's probably getting off topic.....

None of the 2 car Northern 150s have door panels at passenger doors. The 3 car units do (either in what would have been the middle cab vestible or passenger saloon on 001 and 002). If there were middle door panels fitted there would be no reason why they couldn't be used. Some of the transferred in 156s have them, the 155s have them and 158s have them and they are all permitted to be used.

 

[craigybagel]

None of the 2 car Northern 150s have door panels at passenger doors. The 3 car units do (either in what would have been the middle cab vestible or passenger saloon on 001 and 002). If there were middle door panels fitted there would be no reason why they couldn't be used. Some of the transferred in 156s have them, the 155s have them and 158s have them and they are all permitted to be used.

Do the rest of the 150s that came over from GWR not have them? Sure I've seen them fitted.....

 

[skyhigh]

Do the rest of the 150s that came over from GWR not have them? Sure I've seen them fitted.....

They were removed for some reason.

 

[craigybagel]

They were removed for some reason.

Oh good, I'm not going mad.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Do the rest of the 150s that came over from GWR not have them? Sure I've seen them fitted.....

They were removed for some reason.

The ex GWR units still have them put the T key locks have been plated over. The method of working for Northern 150's is from the rear cab.

 

[Brush 4]

I don't know what technical issues there may be but, couldn't any units that are too long simply have the rear coach or coaches locked? The driver stops at the correct point, the open front coaches are on platform, the rear locked ones overhang.

 

[A0wen]

I don't know what technical issues there may be but, couldn't any units that are too long simply have the rear coach or coaches locked? The driver stops at the correct point, the open front coaches are on platform, the rear locked ones overhang.

Its not just platforms - it means they overhang level crossings as well at a couple of the stations, which causes other problems particularly at places like Bow Brickhill and Woburn Sands where it can cause a lot of traffic build up. And before anyone says "oh make the car drivers wait a bit longer" - that's not such a good look when there's an ambulance or fire engine with full blues & twos being delayed, is it ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its not just platforms - it means they overhang level crossings as well at a couple of the stations, which causes other problems particularly at places like Bow Brickhill and Woburn Sands where it can cause a lot of traffic build up. And before anyone says "oh make the car drivers wait a bit longer" - that's not such a good look when there's an ambulance or fire engine with full blues & twos being delayed, is it ?

Very few platforms are a problem. Somewhere on the Forum I listed having researched it in the Sectional Appendix. Woburn Sands definitely is not.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Its not just platforms - it means they overhang level crossings as well at a couple of the stations, which causes other problems particularly at places like Bow Brickhill and Woburn Sands where it can cause a lot of traffic build up. And before anyone says "oh make the car drivers wait a bit longer" - that's not such a good look when there's an ambulance or fire engine with full blues & twos being delayed, is it ?

That happens anyway, at locations with far longer 'barrier down' times due to frequency of service or approach speed of trains. The number of occasions where a train occupying the road crossing would coincide with the arrival (and delay to) a 'blues and twos' response can probably be counted using the hairs on Kojaks head.

 

[43066]

And before anyone says "oh make the car drivers wait a bit longer" - that's not such a good look when there's an ambulance or fire engine with full blues & twos being delayed, is it ?

That happens anyway, at locations with far longer 'barrier down' times due to frequency of service or approach speed of trains. The number of occasions where a train occupying the road crossing would coincide with the arrival (and delay to) a 'blues and twos' response can probably be counted using the hairs on Kojaks head.

Unless and until someone is prepared to pay for level crossings to be closed, and assuming we aren’t going to close the railway down, there’s little that can be done!

 

[Failed Unit]

Slightly off topic, but in such instances why doesn’t the train pass the platform end? Have the front 2 off the platform and the rear 2 on the platform? They used to do it in the past. Although I also remember at Lincoln St Marks sitting on the level crossing at Market Rasen the from 6 coaches were off the platform with only the rear 2 (and power car) on to avoid blocking the foot crossing.